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Post by geoff738 on Jan 18, 2024 16:19:24 GMT -6
Ok, the recent thread on what eq do you use on mid-side had me thinking, this is not really something I have really delved into. And since I picked up a bunch of plugs that have mid side capability I thought Id ask when you use it, what specifically you are using, what if your panning isn’t LCR, does that factor into it, and just generally anything you wish to impart on the subject.
Thanks!
Cheers, Geoff
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Post by viciousbliss on Jan 18, 2024 17:46:23 GMT -6
Mid-side can muck things up easily if you're not careful. Usually I'll only use it with Vertigo VSM stuff with the lows being saturated in the mid and the highs on the side. Not sure if Fusion's stereo imaging section counts, but I find that pretty essential. Can't say I'm really big on mid-side compression or eq on top of these two techniques. Maybe that will change if I work with a hardware eq like Hyperion one of these days.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 17:49:12 GMT -6
So, let me explain it this way.. You have a midi arrangement with a guitar panned 80 / 80 both sides but you use the exact same guitar synth. Change one of the L or R tracks to something else and the differences start to expand the stereo field without artificial enhancement which can come to bite you. I can go into the technical but just try it..
So when we start to manipulate L/R with EQ or compression we create variations, just like double tracking two different guitars and amps L / R which will most likely have different EQ. The same pretty much applies to anything including synths and anything that's not sort of dead center. However with a piano or synth of one it's going to be relatively equal therefore it can sound a bit muddled or homogenised, that's where we'd generally use mid side to spice things up.
In short and still in a non technical way, variety is the spice of life and it can make a huge difference to recordings if one manipulates the mid / side even if you're not doing LCR. Let's not talk about things like unmatched dual mono compression though because that may unbalance things and not in a good way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 18:12:06 GMT -6
Mid-side can muck things up easily if you're not careful. Usually I'll only use it with Vertigo VSM stuff with the lows being saturated in the mid and the highs on the side. Not sure if Fusion's stereo imaging section counts, but I find that pretty essential. Can't say I'm really big on mid-side compression or eq on top of these two techniques. Maybe that will change if I work with a hardware eq like Hyperion one of these days. You can muck up any part of mixing from overcompression to muddy EQ adjustments etc. mid side is a very basic part of mixing or mastering in total.
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Post by drumsound on Jan 18, 2024 18:36:12 GMT -6
My late friend Chris Garges was pretty heavy into Mid-Side tracking and processing. It's a bit of a mystery to me still, but I have liked using it for tracking rooms on occasion. In processing, I bought a Bereich03 BAX EQ and I'll literally just switch each band between mid, stereo, and side and see what it does to the mix. I've been surprised a few times thinking "I want to spread the highs out to the side" and then decided it didn't add, it subtracted.
Using the Pulsar W495 on overheads on a few things made the drums feel more open.
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Post by viciousbliss on Jan 18, 2024 19:22:23 GMT -6
Mid-side can muck things up easily if you're not careful. Usually I'll only use it with Vertigo VSM stuff with the lows being saturated in the mid and the highs on the side. Not sure if Fusion's stereo imaging section counts, but I find that pretty essential. Can't say I'm really big on mid-side compression or eq on top of these two techniques. Maybe that will change if I work with a hardware eq like Hyperion one of these days. You can muck up any part of mixing from overcompression to muddy EQ adjustments etc. mid side is a very basic part of mixing or mastering in total. Of course, I just think mid-side is something that can muck things up easier and faster than most things. Often it's deceptive and you don't realize how drastically you just changed things.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 19:30:42 GMT -6
You can muck up any part of mixing from overcompression to muddy EQ adjustments etc. mid side is a very basic part of mixing or mastering in total. Of course, I just think mid-side is something that can muck things up easier and faster than most things. Often it's deceptive and you don't realize how drastically you just changed things. Yeah, when you get in the car and think WTH?!
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Post by geoff738 on Jan 18, 2024 20:52:06 GMT -6
Yes, I thought there danger lurks might be one of the responses. When not to do something is often as, if not more, important.
Ok, carry on.
Cheers, Geoff
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Post by noob on Jan 18, 2024 21:21:14 GMT -6
Mid-side can drastically improve the stereo image of a mix when done right. I've never "mucked things up," at least not how I would describe it. But I do agree you can vastly change how something sounds and run into phase issues if it's too drastic.
Basically, all the audio that is stereo is side, and all the mono information is mid. So, it's super useful on stereo busses, tightening up a stereo image, or chiseling a little bit of the side signal, keeping all the information in the mono section clean.
For example, find a synth or guitar part too muddy? Maybe instead of adding an EQ or dynamic EQ to the entire track, pull out some of that low end information from the sides, that way you don't lose that tight punch in the middle. Or maybe the opposite, you want to pull some mud out from the mid section to make room for a vocal to sit, but leave that weight on the sides. I do mid-side EQ a lot, and find it amazing for really tightening up tracks in general.
I also love mid/side compression, so think about it this way - you are only compressing the stereo section of the track, but keeping the mono section completely uncompressed (or vice versa). It's a very lovely form of parellel compression, and I do it almost every track (that has drums at least).
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Post by christopher on Jan 19, 2024 12:36:58 GMT -6
Mid side is a good work around when you don’t have a matched pair of analog gear. You can still print in stereo
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Post by ulriggribbons on Jan 19, 2024 12:52:24 GMT -6
There's mix applications, but here's a vid that shows one way to mid-side in recording, using a ShinyBox mic (I used to make) for mid-side. Took me a bit to dig it up. Shows how he uses it on acoustic:
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Post by midsideforlife on Jan 22, 2024 9:08:08 GMT -6
I like it best on drums. I point a mid side pair at the kit when tracking full band or just rhythm section. I intend some bleed from other instruments, but try to limit it. Only kick and snare are miked on the kit.
I like mid/side for everything, but I don't want to stack different mid/side sources in one mix. I want everything to sound like it's in the space, and I want to avoid complicated phase issues.
When mixing, I'm looking for a natural sound, so I don't mix the "side" tracks up very high, keeping the stereo effect realistic and not exaggerated. This gives the benefit of minimizing the change of drum level in the mix when summed to mono. It's going to change when the "side" mic signal just disappears, but with the mid mic being most of it, I can be ok with the mix either way.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 22, 2024 9:32:15 GMT -6
First umm it’s MONO / SIDE not mid! It can worked absolutely wonderfully, but you have to understand that M/S is all about phase, in a general world of close mic’ed multitracked quasi mono stereo most of sound field is about level and phase relationships. Any level and phase changes can really effect the soundstage, all dynamics control is level changes and almost all EQ and filters are going to introduce change in phase. You have to be really careful with M/S and even more careful with any mix changes after some M/ S has been used.
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Post by Darren Boling on Jan 24, 2024 10:16:35 GMT -6
Mid side is a good work around when you don’t have a matched pair of analog gear. You can still print in stereo This is one of my favorite uses too, here's the free ticket to that world: goodhertz.com/midside-matrix/
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Post by noob on Jan 24, 2024 12:57:20 GMT -6
I'm just gonna say mid/side completely changed the game for me when I fully conceptualized it. Of course, it takes some time to understand when to use and when not to. And you can stick your head in the sand and try to ignore it all you want, but at the end of the day, it has the potential for amazing use cases once fully recognized. I've also used that free goodhertz mid/side plugin, simple but comes in very handy sometimes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 16:58:30 GMT -6
First umm it’s MONO / SIDE not mid! It can worked absolutely wonderfully, but you have to understand that M/S is all about phase, in a general world of close mic’ed multitracked quasi mono stereo most of sound field is about level and phase relationships. Any level and phase changes can really effect the soundstage, all dynamics control is level changes and almost all EQ and filters are going to introduce change in phase. You have to be really careful with M/S and even more careful with any mix changes after some M/ S has been used.
It is mid / side processing (or sum / difference is the technical term), it's on the page I posted above but for those who won't read it the reference is derived from the Blumlein mic technique (because M/S is determined by level & polarity). In metal its been common for a long time to do mid side multi-band compression to tame the lower end of guitars and clean it up, if you get it right it's far better than widening plugs or HW which generally does screw everything up.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 24, 2024 17:23:09 GMT -6
First umm it’s MONO / SIDE not mid! It can worked absolutely wonderfully, but you have to understand that M/S is all about phase, in a general world of close mic’ed multitracked quasi mono stereo most of sound field is about level and phase relationships. Any level and phase changes can really effect the soundstage, all dynamics control is level changes and almost all EQ and filters are going to introduce change in phase. You have to be really careful with M/S and even more careful with any mix changes after some M/ S has been used.
It is mid / side processing (or sum / difference is the technical term), it's on the page I posted above but for those who won't read it the reference is derived from the Blumlein mic technique (because M/S is determined by level & polarity). In metal its been common for a long time to do mid side multi-band compression to tame the lower end of guitars and clean it up, if you get it right it's far better than widening plugs or HW which generally does screw everything up.
Just because someone else uses it doesn’t make it so, why I do believe Neumann, AKG, Schoeps, Fostex,Sony and numerous AES papers on the subject pre date the Existence of Izotope Danny.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 17:42:09 GMT -6
Just because someone else uses it doesn’t make it so, why I do believe Neumann, AKG, Schoeps, Fostex,Sony and numerous AES papers on the subject pre date the Existence of Izotope Danny. I'm not saying you're wrong Eric, it's just in modern times I've never heard anyone refer to it otherwise. From College I remembered it as middle / side (as in center plus side) because it made more sense. Although I do try to stop myself from typing that ..
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Post by ironinthepath on Jan 24, 2024 17:47:03 GMT -6
Buzz Audio SOC 20 allows you to compress stereo signals as left/right or mid/side with the flip of a switch: pretty cool way to bring out the room, etc.
This clip actually motivated me to buy SOC 20 vs. the other Buzz Audio opto offerings:
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 24, 2024 18:22:59 GMT -6
Just because someone else uses it doesn’t make it so, why I do believe Neumann, AKG, Schoeps, Fostex,Sony and numerous AES papers on the subject pre date the Existence of Izotope Danny. I'm not saying you're wrong Eric, it's just in modern times I've never heard anyone refer to it otherwise. From College I remembered it as middle / side (as in center plus side) because it made more sense. Although I do try to stop myself from typing that .. If you want to make friends and earn respect from mic manufacturers, it’s Mono side, if you want to be treated like everyone else call it mid / side. I love that my messages are still returned very quickly😁
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 18:29:16 GMT -6
I'm not saying you're wrong Eric, it's just in modern times I've never heard anyone refer to it otherwise. From College I remembered it as middle / side (as in center plus side) because it made more sense. Although I do try to stop myself from typing that .. If you want to make friends and earn respect from mic manufacturers, it’s Mono side, if you want to be treated like everyone else call it mid / side. I love that my messages are still returned very quickly😁 If they are petty enough to use a universally known phrase against me then I don't really want to speak to them in the first place. Fortunately 99.9% of them aren't and they return my messages very quickly too. Common courtesy works wonders in most situations, not everyone has to or needs to read AES papers.
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Post by noob on Jan 24, 2024 18:32:23 GMT -6
I've never heard it referred to as mono side, even though technically that does make more sense.
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Post by ironinthepath on Jan 24, 2024 20:40:51 GMT -6
...but I like AES papers :-)
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