ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2023 7:00:08 GMT -6
Lots of 500 series pres with ic based 2520 foot print Opamps. They do hit a price point.
Most of the price of something is usually the transformers and boards, but they are selling it full retail. What gets me is some of these circuits these no names are building and selling have royalties you pay and I can tell they didn't do anything special.
So there will be some more lawsuits API will do in the future.
CAPRI pays for the licensing they sell on products and API dictates what and how they sell it.
If Your thinking of CAPI, no their Classic API designs are all based on designs where the rights to any IP expired a long time ago. API did serve them with a lawsuit that had to deal use of the API name and some other API information published on the website that was Available for years elsewhere on the web. They also sued over the use of the API knob, that where they referenced a copyright/ patent on the dual concentric version, even though said knob design was produced by an OEM who will gladly sell to anyone in quantity ( funny how they didn’t sue the OEM or realize anyone with a 3D printer could create a plastic knockoff). Most design IP expires after 20 years, the well known exception are the EMI designs licensed to Chandler.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 27, 2023 10:16:46 GMT -6
Most design IP expires after 20 years, the well known exception are the EMI designs licensed to Chandler. Interesting.
so these people cloning stuff are doing it because of the expired IP.
So does that mean UA and Fairchild allowed that to happen as well?
I thought that there was some sort if renewal process they have to do every 10 years to keep it.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 27, 2023 10:19:46 GMT -6
Lots of 500 series pres with ic based 2520 foot print Opamps. They do hit a price point.
Most of the price of something is usually the transformers and boards, but they are selling it full retail. What gets me is some of these circuits these no names are building and selling have royalties you pay and I can tell they didn't do anything special.
So there will be some more lawsuits API will do in the future.
CAPRI pays for the licensing they sell on products and API dictates what and how they sell it.
Don't think that's true. CAPI was taken to court over a patent on a knob, they changed the knob. They could've won the knob suit given enough $$$$$$$$$$$$$ thrown at it, but what's the point? Design patents have a shorter 15 year term than utility patents which are 20 years. After that, it's open season.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 27, 2023 10:31:29 GMT -6
Most of the price of something is usually the transformers and boards, but they are selling it full retail. What gets me is some of these circuits these no names are building and selling have royalties you pay and I can tell they didn't do anything special.
So there will be some more lawsuits API will do in the future.
CAPRI pays for the licensing they sell on products and API dictates what and how they sell it.
Don't think that's true. CAPI was taken to court over a patent on a knob, they changed the knob. They could've won the knob suit given enough $$$$$$$$$$$$$ thrown at it, but what's the point? Design patents have a shorter 15 year term than utility patents which are 20 years. After that, it's open season.
Well in any case if I ever do production of a clone to retail, I'll consult a lawer first.
One offs DIY built as a hobby sold later are a different story. Of course changing the design is another way out.
I think the 500 series stuff is popular for staring guys because they don't have to spend $$$$$$ on getting regulatory testing, because there is no power supply. The other loophole is the wall wart design because the power supply has been already tested and added into what is sold.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2023 12:36:18 GMT -6
Don't think that's true. CAPI was taken to court over a patent on a knob, they changed the knob. They could've won the knob suit given enough $$$$$$$$$$$$$ thrown at it, but what's the point? Design patents have a shorter 15 year term than utility patents which are 20 years. After that, it's open season.
Well in any case if I ever do production of a clone to retail, I'll consult a lawer first.
One offs DIY built as a hobby sold later are a different story. Of course changing the design is another way out.
I think the 500 series stuff is popular for staring guys because they don't have to spend $$$$$$ on getting regulatory testing, because there is no power supply. The other loophole is the wall wart design because the power supply has been already tested and added into what is sold.
If there was money in lic IP to clone builders Neumann, AKG, API and Neve would probably not exist today as manufacturers, there would be more $$$ collecting lic fees and protecting IP. What IP is secured is pretty expensive because it has to be agreed upon by both parties and the IP holder usually looks at it as a lost sale. It usually only happens among friends ( our sister company was the first to license the Aural Exciter from Aphex). In the states the UL approved PSU is really only a big deal in California where earthquake code requires anything permanently installed in a public building must be UL approved. However I have never heard of an inspector digging in the back of a rack for UL approved stickers. Most manufacturers view the UL approval as a secondary benefit, the primary being cost and the advantages of easily replaced in field PSU and low EMI in test bed situations.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 27, 2023 13:06:26 GMT -6
In the states the UL approved PSU is really only a big deal in California where earthquake code requires anything permanently installed in a public building must be UL approved. However I have never heard of an inspector digging in the back of a rack for UL approved stickers. Most manufacturers view the UL approval as a secondary benefit, the primary being cost and the advantages of easily replaced in field PSU and low EMI in test bed situations. A lot of retailers and distributors will not deal with you unless you are registered in UL and the product. Not only the product has to pass test, you get a manufacturer's registration. So under the UL logo the device class and manufacture's registrant is displayed. This is how I used to look up and repair items rebranded as another name. Attachments:
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2023 13:58:30 GMT -6
In the states the UL approved PSU is really only a big deal in California where earthquake code requires anything permanently installed in a public building must be UL approved. However I have never heard of an inspector digging in the back of a rack for UL approved stickers. Most manufacturers view the UL approval as a secondary benefit, the primary being cost and the advantages of easily replaced in field PSU and low EMI in test bed situations. A lot of retailers and distributors will not deal with you unless you are registered in UL and the product. Not only the product has to pass test, you get a manufacturer's registration. So under the UL logo the device class and manufacture's registrant is displayed. This is how I used to look up and repair items rebranded as another name. HA, that is total BS, having been part of the leadership team of one of the US largest dealers, knowing the leadership of most of the largest dealers, nobody has ever refused to carry a piece because of UL listing. If this were the case non of the small boutique tube gear would be sold through dealers. Most small scale manufacturers can’t afford the cost or the time it takes to receive approval. So unless you are using an approved OEM PSU you are probably not approved ( internal PSU’s that have been approved also count). So pretty much anything that requires a custom PSU is not going to be UL approved. The exception to this will be contracting install aimed products, but I know of a fair amount that are not. For many the 500 format has been a workaround, but only a handful of 500 racks use approved PSU’s so for many it has been a pain in the ass. A common workaround/ loophole in the CA earthquake code, is to mount all the unapproved pieces in “ portable “ racks and state they are not installed permanently, “ see that rack isn’t plugged in or hooked up” well today it isn’t so it’s not permanently installed. Legal? Well probably not but most inspectors will let it by but again I haven’t heard of a single inspector who looked. I will admit that on bid proposals and for substitutions I know dealers and consultants who will only use UL approved equipment and will state so, I also know that this has influenced decisions inside and outside of California. For bids in CA I know proposals that have included a copy of the statute. Only in the case of large scale installs is it worth the dealers time to explain that not meeting this code could effect insurance claims or liability, if I’m just replacing a piece of gear it’s probably never going to be addressed. Frankly I worry more about the guy who is going to hang a speaker either by its handles or drilling a hole and screwing in a standard open eyebolt with wood screw threads into a fiberboard cabinet and use generic non millspec hardware than if the amp is UL listed.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 27, 2023 14:05:35 GMT -6
A lot of retailers and distributors will not deal with you unless you are registered in UL and the product. Not only the product has to pass test, you get a manufacturer's registration. So under the UL logo the device class and manufacture's registrant is displayed. This is how I used to look up and repair items rebranded as another name. HA, that is total BS, having been part of the leadership team of one of the US largest dealers, knowing the leadership of most of the largest dealers, nobody has ever refused to carry a piece because of UL listing. If this were the case non of the small boutique tube gear would be sold through dealers. Most small scale manufacturers can’t afford the cost or the time it takes to receive approval. So unless you are using an approved OEM PSU you are probably not approved ( internal PSU’s that have been approved also count). So pretty much anything that requires a custom PSU is not going to be UL approved. The exception to this will be contracting install aimed products, but I know of a fair amount that are not. For many the 500 format has been a workaround, but only a handful of 500 racks use approved PSU’s so for many it has been a pain in the ass. A common workaround/ loophole in the CA earthquake code, is to mount all the unapproved pieces in “ portable “ racks and state they are not installed permanently, “ see that rack isn’t plugged in or hooked up” well today it isn’t so it’s not permanently installed. Legal? Well probably not but most inspectors will let it by but again I haven’t heard of a single inspector who looked. I will admit that on bid proposals and for substitutions I know dealers and consultants who will only use UL approved equipment and will state so, I also know that this has influenced decisions inside and outside of California. For bids in CA I know proposals that have included a copy of the statute. Only in the case of large scale installs is it worth the dealers time to explain that not meeting this code could effect insurance claims or liability, if I’m just replacing a piece of gear it’s probably never going to be addressed. Frankly I worry more about the guy who is going to hang a speaker either by its handles or drilling a hole and screwing in a standard open eyebolt with wood screw threads into a fiberboard cabinet and use generic non millspec hardware than if the amp is UL listed.
So someone filled me with that BS long ago so I wouldn't bother creating things. Nice to know. Thank you.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2023 14:12:13 GMT -6
HA, that is total BS, having been part of the leadership team of one of the US largest dealers, knowing the leadership of most of the largest dealers, nobody has ever refused to carry a piece because of UL listing. If this were the case non of the small boutique tube gear would be sold through dealers. Most small scale manufacturers can’t afford the cost or the time it takes to receive approval. So unless you are using an approved OEM PSU you are probably not approved ( internal PSU’s that have been approved also count). So pretty much anything that requires a custom PSU is not going to be UL approved. The exception to this will be contracting install aimed products, but I know of a fair amount that are not. For many the 500 format has been a workaround, but only a handful of 500 racks use approved PSU’s so for many it has been a pain in the ass. A common workaround/ loophole in the CA earthquake code, is to mount all the unapproved pieces in “ portable “ racks and state they are not installed permanently, “ see that rack isn’t plugged in or hooked up” well today it isn’t so it’s not permanently installed. Legal? Well probably not but most inspectors will let it by but again I haven’t heard of a single inspector who looked. I will admit that on bid proposals and for substitutions I know dealers and consultants who will only use UL approved equipment and will state so, I also know that this has influenced decisions inside and outside of California. For bids in CA I know proposals that have included a copy of the statute. Only in the case of large scale installs is it worth the dealers time to explain that not meeting this code could effect insurance claims or liability, if I’m just replacing a piece of gear it’s probably never going to be addressed. Frankly I worry more about the guy who is going to hang a speaker either by its handles or drilling a hole and screwing in a standard open eyebolt with wood screw threads into a fiberboard cabinet and use generic non millspec hardware than if the amp is UL listed.
So someone filled me with that BS long ago so I wouldn't bother creating things. Nice to know. Thank you.
It’s not total BS, because it is the law in CA, but most don’t know or care, but just a quick search of Back panels will show how little attention is paid to it. I also seam to remember like ROHOs there was a computer peripheral dodge as well, ironically in this case in our arena most of what plugs into a computer meets both.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 27, 2023 16:17:55 GMT -6
So someone filled me with that BS long ago so I wouldn't bother creating things. Nice to know. Thank you.
It’s not total BS, because it is the law in CA, but most don’t know or care, but just a quick search of Back panels will show how little attention is paid to it. I also seam to remember like ROHOs there was a computer peripheral dodge as well, ironically in this case in our arena most of what plugs into a computer meets both.
This is the only thing I see though that would stop me from making from scratch a computer supply like the one I made with power one linears:
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Post by doubledog on Dec 27, 2023 16:31:11 GMT -6
I think if you manufacture/mass-produce an item that imposes a safety risk (i.e. plugging into 100/120/240v power qualifies...), and you choose to skip the UL certification (or CE compliance in non-US countries) then you probably better have a very good lawyer (as I'm pretty sure that opens you up to get sued pretty easily). At the very least you should print a bogus "UL" stamp on it like many of the shady Amazon items.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2023 17:04:11 GMT -6
I think if you manufacture/mass-produce an item that imposes a safety risk (i.e. plugging into 100/120/240v power qualifies...), and you choose to skip the UL certification (or CE compliance in non-US countries) then you probably better have a very good lawyer (as I'm pretty sure that opens you up to get sued pretty easily). At the very least you should print a bogus "UL" stamp on it like many of the shady Amazon items. In the US only in CA “ public buildings “. To give you an idea, just out of curiosity today the guy was here to fix one of the elevators, I have gotten to know him over the years so I asked if the elevators electricals were UL approved, he laughed. That’s by far a much more dangerous load than a mic pre.
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Post by audiospecific on Dec 27, 2023 19:26:38 GMT -6
I think if you manufacture/mass-produce an item that imposes a safety risk (i.e. plugging into 100/120/240v power qualifies...), and you choose to skip the UL certification (or CE compliance in non-US countries) then you probably better have a very good lawyer (as I'm pretty sure that opens you up to get sued pretty easily). At the very least you should print a bogus "UL" stamp on it like many of the shady Amazon items.
I feel it would be too reckless not to do the proper things like inspections and certifications. However I shouldn't let it be a road block either. Yes, it will cost me more than I have in personal wealth. Which means I need to figure out alternatives like a go-fund-me which seems other people like Warm Audio did to start out.
I put my prototype together with my controller circuit and industrial power supplies, but I would refine it so the cost isn't extreme as it was designing the concept. I have an advantage over the Chinese because the best power transformer makers are in the US and we have a strong enough supply chain of parts.
I though a long time ago it was going to be one of the microphone preamplifiers or processors I uniquely created. Or a mod service because its a fun and easy thing for me to do, because I know what tones and behaviors I can bring out in a circuit and learned from the master craftsmen of that sector because life gave me that opportunity to gain that knowledge. I think a long gone sound engineering friend would say to me: "It's not what you want to build for the mountain. Rather, its what all mountains would want you to build to fill their needs."
So this is the direction I should go, then expand later. Its finding the right path of doing it and the correct approach of it all.
So, I have to figure out the crowd funding things just like Warm Audio did. Because I see the ATX-AV power supply becoming a good product for all.
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