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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 20:56:52 GMT -6
One clarification, the KH 310s do not have DSP or digital anything. That's how they ended up on my short list of 1) three ways 2) sealed 3) under $6k Who are you clarifying? The advantage of the KH310's is that via a sub there is a DSP option. Even then there's still better out there if you've got the $$$'s, many class D + DSP solutions costing $10K+ out there that are truly phenomenal. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Dec 17, 2023 22:21:01 GMT -6
One clarification, the KH 310s do not have DSP or digital anything. That's how they ended up on my short list of 1) three ways 2) sealed 3) under $6k Who are you clarifying? The advantage of the KH310's is that via a sub there is a DSP option. Even then there's still better out there if you've got the $$$'s, many class D + DSP solutions costing $10K+ out there that are truly phenomenal. Oh maybe I misread your thing. I thought you were saying the 310s have DSP (which most of the other Neumann's do now I think). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 22:50:50 GMT -6
One clarification, the KH 310s do not have DSP or digital anything. That's how they ended up on my short list of 1) three ways 2) sealed 3) under $6k They are strictly nearfields. They do not have the headroom for anything mid or far field in the low end. If you want anything sub bass on them, you need a subwoofer that blends well to relieve the woofer. Sennheiser will definitely cheap them out just like they did the KH 80 and KH 120 mk II. They made the MK II woofer bigger for more low end at the expense of a crossover dip and use a worse, unrepairable plate amp vs the original. They will do the 310 next 😱 |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 18, 2023 2:28:47 GMT -6
If the amp in the 310 is anything like the amp in the 0300 and I strongly suspect it is - mainly SMC!
I'd give it and any other Sennheiser monitor a wide berth!
When my 0300 amp failed my tech had a look inside - I was very surprised at how sh*t the design of the amp was - some SMC had blown - Sennheiser told me to (I paraphrase)
"throw it in a skip and buy some 310's"
Thanks but no thanks I said.
I moved to ATC 25's .... class A/B discreet MOSFET .... repairable, serviceable .... it matters when your spending $1000's on monitors!
So maybe some second hand 25's (or similar) .... they go around $5K.
Just make sure the amp is discreet class A/B and can be repaired, you know in 5 years time, 10 years time .... 15 years time!
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Post by svart on Dec 18, 2023 8:00:13 GMT -6
If the amp in the 310 is anything like the amp in the 0300 and I strongly suspect it is - mainly SMC! I'd give it and any other Sennheiser monitor a wide berth! When my 0300 amp failed my tech had a look inside - I was very surprised at how sh*t the design of the amp was - some SMC had blown - Sennheiser told me to (I paraphrase) "throw it in a skip and buy some 310's" Thanks but no thanks I said. I moved to ATC 25's .... class A/B discreet MOSFET .... repairable, serviceable .... it matters when your spending $1000's on monitors! So maybe some second hand 25's (or similar) .... they go around $5K. Just make sure the amp is discreet class A/B and can be repaired, you know in 5 years time, 10 years time .... 15 years time! A speaker from a previous manufacturer, that was since completely redesigned and you're surprised that they don't have parts to send to you? Why can't I get a brand new OEM water pump from Ford for my 1980 Merkur??? Don't they stand behind their products??? |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 18, 2023 8:17:06 GMT -6
If the amp in the 310 is anything like the amp in the 0300 and I strongly suspect it is - mainly SMC! I'd give it and any other Sennheiser monitor a wide berth! When my 0300 amp failed my tech had a look inside - I was very surprised at how sh*t the design of the amp was - some SMC had blown - Sennheiser told me to (I paraphrase) "throw it in a skip and buy some 310's" Thanks but no thanks I said. I moved to ATC 25's .... class A/B discreet MOSFET .... repairable, serviceable .... it matters when your spending $1000's on monitors! So maybe some second hand 25's (or similar) .... they go around $5K. Just make sure the amp is discreet class A/B and can be repaired, you know in 5 years time, 10 years time .... 15 years time! A speaker from a previous manufacturer, that was since completely redesigned and you're surprised that they don't have parts to send to you? Why can't I get a brand new OEM water pump from Ford for my 1980 Merkur??? Don't they stand behind their products??? Yes, but it wasn’t a spare parts issue! When I bought my 0300’s Sennhesier had already bought K&H. Sennhesier handled the repair when the mid driver failed. My tech knew someone in the tech department and asked kindly for a one off “to be destroyed” copy of the schematic. The contact said, should be ok I’ll ask and when came back the tech department refused even though the repair was doable. The guy in the tech department said it was a repair Sennhesier could do if the will was there. Fair enough, I took my wallet elsewhere. ATC are repairing gear from the 1970’s! I know which manufacturer suits my approach to gear and my approach to “being green aware!!” Throwing stuff in landfills for purely commercial reasons isn’t a great approach if easily avoidable. Sennhesier are a company I personally avoid where possible. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2023 8:45:25 GMT -6
If the amp in the 310 is anything like the amp in the 0300 and I strongly suspect it is - mainly SMC! I'd give it and any other Sennheiser monitor a wide berth! When my 0300 amp failed my tech had a look inside - I was very surprised at how sh*t the design of the amp was - some SMC had blown - Sennheiser told me to (I paraphrase) "throw it in a skip and buy some 310's" Thanks but no thanks I said. I moved to ATC 25's .... class A/B discreet MOSFET .... repairable, serviceable .... it matters when your spending $1000's on monitors! So maybe some second hand 25's (or similar) .... they go around $5K. Just make sure the amp is discreet class A/B and can be repaired, you know in 5 years time, 10 years time .... 15 years time! A speaker from a previous manufacturer, that was since completely redesigned and you're surprised that they don't have parts to send to you? Why can't I get a brand new OEM water pump from Ford for my 1980 Merkur??? Don't they stand behind their products??? No, Sennheiser cheaped out the design of their monitor speakers and refused to fix what they could fix or provide schematics to a third party tech under an NDA to fix. thehightenor has posted about his issue before here and on multiple forums. Stop being a contrarian asshole and defending value-engineered equipment that you own that uses inferior parts for cost reasons. Now Sennheiser has cheaped out the newer KH monitors beyond what thehightenor was complaining about. The older KH 120 was a small, die cast aluminum monitor with a decent midrange, fixable but typical hohum class ab plate amp, and low headroom. The new KH 80 had no headroom to pretend to have bass, is made of plastic, has latency from linear phase digital crossovers, and the plateamp is total fucking garbage covered in silicone glue like a KRK Rokit. The new KH 120 mk II lowers crossover point to get more volume for “producers” at the expense of a 2 khz ish crossover dip and has similar garbage electronics as the 4” one. Sennheiser chose to cross the woofer of the KH 120 II and KH 150 over to a piece of fucking plastic instead of a mechanical tweeter. Similar garbage to the JBL LSRs. Many of today’s monitors are pretty much indestructible until the surrounds give out and tweeters burn out except for the awful electronics. If you want monitors with good amps in them, ATC and Quested are that way. ATC passives and Quested S7R are the same cost as the KH150. ATC and Genelec have wide American distribution and fix their own monitors even if Genelec’s amplifiers are far from the best. Other manufacturers use higher end class d modules, e.g. PMC and Dynaudio. |
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Post by ericn on Dec 18, 2023 10:26:26 GMT -6
A speaker from a previous manufacturer, that was since completely redesigned and you're surprised that they don't have parts to send to you? Why can't I get a brand new OEM water pump from Ford for my 1980 Merkur??? Don't they stand behind their products??? No, Sennheiser cheaped out the design of their monitor speakers and refused to fix what they could fix or provide schematics to a third party tech under an NDA to fix. thehightenor has posted about his issue before here and on multiple forums. Stop being a contrarian asshole and defending value-engineered equipment that you own that uses inferior parts for cost reasons. Now Sennheiser has cheaped out the newer KH monitors beyond what thehightenor was complaining about. The older KH 120 was a small, die cast aluminum monitor with a decent midrange, fixable but typical hohum class ab plate amp, and low headroom. The new KH 80 had no headroom to pretend to have bass, is made of plastic, has latency from linear phase digital crossovers, and the plateamp is total fucking garbage covered in silicone glue like a KRK Rokit. The new KH 120 mk II lowers crossover point to get more volume for “producers” at the expense of a 2 khz ish crossover dip and has similar garbage electronics as the 4” one. Sennheiser chose to cross the woofer of the KH 120 II and KH 150 over to a piece of fucking plastic instead of a mechanical tweeter. Similar garbage to the JBL LSRs. Many of today’s monitors are pretty much indestructible until the surrounds give out and tweeters burn out except for the awful electronics. If you want monitors with good amps in them, ATC and Quested are that way. ATC passives and Quested S7R are the same cost as the KH150. ATC and Genelec have wide American distribution and fix their own monitors even if Genelec’s amplifiers are far from the best. Other manufacturers use higher end class d modules, e.g. PMC and Dynaudio. I hear rumors Questeds new owners and MC2 are not as tight as Rodger and Terry were so don’t be surprised if you see less Class AB and H Questeds as well as XtA MC2 seams to be embracing D. Trying to find a compact plate amp from an OEM is next to impossible these days. You have to understand that Under $5K active monitors are more assembled than manufactured, even JBL probably the most famous driver manufacturer is using off Shore OEM’s for drivers and amps. Is anyone surprised Sennheiser is building the Neumann speakers cheaper than K&H did ? Come on how do you think they planned on making money? They took a boutique brand and made it mass market, building it cheaper was the magic. BUT I’ll bet particularly in post and immersive situations you will find that many end users find the new ones to be “ better”. The Dynaudio Mid used originally by K& H is a great sounding driver if and when you can find a pair, no less 3 for LCR or 7 for ATMOS that match. In the days before surround, you could hold inventory and wait till you had a pair of drivers that matched pretty close and ship them as matched pairs. As Surround started to dominate customers wanted an odd number of speakers and dealers demanded that manufacturers ship speakers individually. Manufacturers not wanting to miss out jumped on the bandwagon, but in a lot of cases and with that Dyn mid in particular they didn’t match as well. Enter the Chinese and Tang Band in particular, they made a pretty damn good copy at 1/3 the price of the Dyn in quantity. TB could deliver in quantity, it might be a bit “tiny” zingy” or “ harsher than the Dyn, but the magic is the TB’s come off the line +-1 dB from each other, a TB bought today is going to match a 5 year old TB. The same can be said for those DSP enableed class D plate amps. In a ATMOS demo the consistency will present a soundstage that will knock your socks off, sure if you spend some times listening you will miss the detail of a Dyn, ATC or Volt but your going to have to take more time than most are going to get to notice it. |
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Post by Quint on Dec 18, 2023 11:18:33 GMT -6
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If I choose to accept Dan's premise that the KH310s are, to one extent or another, compromised in their design/construction, then I must also choose to compare apples to apples, and look at other 3-way monitors in that same price bracket to evaluate to what degree those other monitors are or aren't also compromised.
Upon doing so, aren't I going to discover that they are ALL built to a price point and that, unless I'm willing to spend $10k on a pair of ATC SCM25, there is no mythical 3-way monitor in the ~$5k price bracket that ISN'T similarly compromised (compromised being a relative term)?
In other words, all of the above is to say this: Why single out the KH310, when so many other monitors in that price bracket are also going to be similarly compromised (compromised being a relative term)?
What currently manufactured 3-way monitor, in the $5k price bracket, should I be using instead of the KH310? Who, in that same price bracket, isn't using SMD? Who isn't also committing some of these other "sins" in this price bracket?
We can leave sound quality out of the discussion, because that's subjective (though I do quite like the sound of my KH310s). I'd love to have a pair of the ATC, but that was never in my budget. So budget being an important consideration, what other currently manufactured 3-way monitors in the $5k price bracket don't commit these sins? I'm genuinely curious.
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Post by ericn on Dec 18, 2023 11:32:46 GMT -6
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If I choose to accept Dan's premise that the KH310s are, to one extent or another, compromised in their design/construction, then I must also choose to compare apples to apples, and look at other 3-way monitors in that same price bracket to evaluate to what degree those other monitors are or aren't also compromised. Upon doing so, aren't I going to discover that they are ALL built to a price point and that, unless I'm willing to spend $10k on a pair of ATC SCM25, there is no mythical 3-way monitor in the ~$5k price bracket that ISN'T similarly compromised (compromised being a relative term)? In other words, all of the above is to say this: Why slag the KH310, when so many other monitors in that price bracket are also going to be similarly compromised (compromised being a relative term)? What currently manufactured 3-way monitor, in the $5k price bracket, should I be using instead of the KH310? Who, in that same price bracket, isn't using SMD? Who isn't also committing some of these other "sins" in this price bracket? We can leave sound quality out of the discussion, because that's subjective (though I do quite like the sound of my KH310s). I'd love to have a pair of the ATC, but that was never in my budget. So budget being an important consideration, what other 3-way monitors in the $5k price bracket don't commit these sins? I'm genuinely curious. Every speaker is a compromise, even if it’s not a price point compromise it’s still a compromise. Dan’s slag of Senn/ Neumann. Is rooted in what K&H was, many have said similar things about Dynaudio under its new masters and Tannoy under theirs. All 3 were well respected for quality and had a diehard fan Base. |
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Post by Quint on Dec 18, 2023 11:40:51 GMT -6
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If I choose to accept Dan's premise that the KH310s are, to one extent or another, compromised in their design/construction, then I must also choose to compare apples to apples, and look at other 3-way monitors in that same price bracket to evaluate to what degree those other monitors are or aren't also compromised. Upon doing so, aren't I going to discover that they are ALL built to a price point and that, unless I'm willing to spend $10k on a pair of ATC SCM25, there is no mythical 3-way monitor in the ~$5k price bracket that ISN'T similarly compromised (compromised being a relative term)? In other words, all of the above is to say this: Why slag the KH310, when so many other monitors in that price bracket are also going to be similarly compromised (compromised being a relative term)? What currently manufactured 3-way monitor, in the $5k price bracket, should I be using instead of the KH310? Who, in that same price bracket, isn't using SMD? Who isn't also committing some of these other "sins" in this price bracket? We can leave sound quality out of the discussion, because that's subjective (though I do quite like the sound of my KH310s). I'd love to have a pair of the ATC, but that was never in my budget. So budget being an important consideration, what other 3-way monitors in the $5k price bracket don't commit these sins? I'm genuinely curious. Every speaker is a compromise, even if it’s not a price point compromise it’s still a compromise. Dan’s slag of Senn/ Neumann. Is rooted in what K&H was, many have said similar things about Dynaudio under its new masters and Tannoy under theirs. All 3 were well respected for quality and had a diehard fan Base. I never used the K&H 0300 and, from a design/construction standpoint, I don't know if the premise is that the KH310 is better or worse than the 0300? It sounds like Dan considers the 0300 superior to the 310, I "think". But I've also read others say that, from a design/construction standpoint, the KH310 is BETTER than the 0300. In any case, regardless of how the KH310 compares to the 0300, it's a bit of a moot point. What I care about is how the KH310 compares to other currently manufactured 3-ways. If the KH310 is being considered a downgrade from the 0300 so be it. Similarly, if the newer Dyns are considered a downgrade from the older Dyns so be it. I understand complaints that might arise from that. As a long time Dyn user myself (before I switched to the KH310), I get it. I'm just saying that I don't understand why the KH310 is being singled out, when likely all or at least nearly all of the other 3-ways in this price bracket are all making the same compromises? |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 18, 2023 12:05:27 GMT -6
Every speaker is a compromise, even if it’s not a price point compromise it’s still a compromise. Dan’s slag of Senn/ Neumann. Is rooted in what K&H was, many have said similar things about Dynaudio under its new masters and Tannoy under theirs. All 3 were well respected for quality and had a diehard fan Base. I never used the K&H 0300 and, from a design/construction standpoint, I don't know if the premise is that the KH310 is better or worse than the 0300? It sounds like Dan considers the 0300 superior to the 310, I "think". But I've also read others say that, from a design/construction standpoint, the KH310 is BETTER than the 0300. In any case, regardless of how the KH310 compares to the 0300, it's a bit of a moot point. What I care about is how the KH310 compares to other currently manufactured 3-ways. If the KH310 is being considered a downgrade from the 0300 so be it. Similarly, if the newer Dyns are considered a downgrade from the older Dyns so be it. I understand complaints that might arise from that. As a long time Dyn user myself (before I switched to the KH310), I get it. I'm just saying that I don't understand why the KH310 is being singled out, when likely all or at least nearly all of the other 3-ways in this price bracket are all making the same compromises? Because it’s the internet. |
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Post by svart on Dec 18, 2023 12:17:54 GMT -6
Every speaker is a compromise, even if it’s not a price point compromise it’s still a compromise. Dan’s slag of Senn/ Neumann. Is rooted in what K&H was, many have said similar things about Dynaudio under its new masters and Tannoy under theirs. All 3 were well respected for quality and had a diehard fan Base. I never used the K&H 0300 and, from a design/construction standpoint, I don't know if the premise is that the KH310 is better or worse than the 0300? It sounds like Dan considers the 0300 superior to the 310, I "think". But I've also read others say that, from a design/construction standpoint, the KH310 is BETTER than the 0300. In any case, regardless of how the KH310 compares to the 0300, it's a bit of a moot point. What I care about is how the KH310 compares to other currently manufactured 3-ways. If the KH310 is being considered a downgrade from the 0300 so be it. Similarly, if the newer Dyns are considered a downgrade from the older Dyns so be it. I understand complaints that might arise from that. As a long time Dyn user myself (before I switched to the KH310), I get it. I'm just saying that I don't understand why the KH310 is being singled out, when likely all or at least nearly all of the other 3-ways in this price bracket are all making the same compromises? As much of a "contrarian asshole" as I might be, Dan has had a hard-on for shitting on the KH310 for years. Half the stuff he's said about them isn't even true in the least so I've tended to simply ignore his constant one-uppance remarks about them. I tend to think that it doesn't really matter what other speakers may or may not compare as long as he gets to say that anything else is better. I'm sure he'll show up to throw some regurgitated techno-babble out there to defend his position and explain why we're all wrong, like he always does . Contrarian asshole indeed. |
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Post by Quint on Dec 18, 2023 12:25:10 GMT -6
I never used the K&H 0300 and, from a design/construction standpoint, I don't know if the premise is that the KH310 is better or worse than the 0300? It sounds like Dan considers the 0300 superior to the 310, I "think". But I've also read others say that, from a design/construction standpoint, the KH310 is BETTER than the 0300. In any case, regardless of how the KH310 compares to the 0300, it's a bit of a moot point. What I care about is how the KH310 compares to other currently manufactured 3-ways. If the KH310 is being considered a downgrade from the 0300 so be it. Similarly, if the newer Dyns are considered a downgrade from the older Dyns so be it. I understand complaints that might arise from that. As a long time Dyn user myself (before I switched to the KH310), I get it. I'm just saying that I don't understand why the KH310 is being singled out, when likely all or at least nearly all of the other 3-ways in this price bracket are all making the same compromises? As much of a "contrarian asshole" as I might be, Dan has had a hard-on for shitting on the KH310 for years. Half the stuff he's said about them isn't even true in the least so I've tended to simply ignore his constant one-uppance remarks about them. I tend to think that it doesn't really matter what other speakers may or may not compare as long as he gets to say that anything else is better. I'm sure he'll show up to throw some regurgitated techno-babble out there to defend his position and explain why we're all wrong, like he always does . Contrarian asshole indeed. I quite like the KH310. And my position hasn't changed in the slightest. I was just mostly asking out of curiosity, and also somewhat rhetorically stating that I don't think there likely is anything about the KH310 that actually makes them demonstrably worse in design/construction than any other currently manufactured 3-way in this price bracket. If I'm going to be convinced, I need real world, practical evidence that shows how the 310 is inferior in design/construction to other 3-ways in this price bracket. Hence my request for comparisons. But I hear what you're saying. |
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Post by svart on Dec 18, 2023 12:41:45 GMT -6
As much of a "contrarian asshole" as I might be, Dan has had a hard-on for shitting on the KH310 for years. Half the stuff he's said about them isn't even true in the least so I've tended to simply ignore his constant one-uppance remarks about them. I tend to think that it doesn't really matter what other speakers may or may not compare as long as he gets to say that anything else is better. I'm sure he'll show up to throw some regurgitated techno-babble out there to defend his position and explain why we're all wrong, like he always does . Contrarian asshole indeed. I quite like the KH310. And my position hasn't changed in the slightest. I was just mostly asking out of curiosity, and also somewhat rhetorically stating that I don't think there likely is anything about the KH310 that actually makes them demonstrably worse in design/construction than any other currently manufactured 3-way in this price bracket. If I'm going to be convinced, I need real world, practical evidence that shows how the 310 is inferior in design/construction to other 3-ways in this price bracket. Hence my request for comparisons. But I hear what you're saying. I'm perfectly happy with mine too. So are thousands of other users. They translate great, are relatively affordable for what they are and what they can do, are lightweight enough to sit on a desk.. They are quiet but can get loud, have good dispersion, no holes in the spectrum, etc. They have been everything I needed in a monitor, so why would I compare them to anything else? Why would I even wonder about construction when I've had no issues with the construction? |
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Post by Quint on Dec 18, 2023 12:47:14 GMT -6
I quite like the KH310. And my position hasn't changed in the slightest. I was just mostly asking out of curiosity, and also somewhat rhetorically stating that I don't think there likely is anything about the KH310 that actually makes them demonstrably worse in design/construction than any other currently manufactured 3-way in this price bracket. If I'm going to be convinced, I need real world, practical evidence that shows how the 310 is inferior in design/construction to other 3-ways in this price bracket. Hence my request for comparisons. But I hear what you're saying. I'm perfectly happy with mine too. So are thousands of other users. They translate great, are relatively affordable for what they are and what they can do, are lightweight enough to sit on a desk.. They are quiet but can get loud, have good dispersion, no holes in the spectrum, etc. They have been everything I needed in a monitor, so why would I compare them to anything else? Why would I even wonder about construction when I've had no issues with the construction? I don't really sit around and think about the construction either. I'm very happy with them. They check a lot of boxes for my needs and wants. It was mostly just curiosity. |
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Post by christopher on Dec 18, 2023 12:55:52 GMT -6
I’m glad he mentions that stuff though, as it doesn’t make me want it less. But it does set my expectations that it’s a consumable, like so many things. If one craps out you might at least be able to get $1k for the working one.
I dunno.. I’m still satisfied with my ancient passives. $5k can buy a lot of headphones. And there’s lots of choices.. hifi etc
All that matters.. do they get the job done?
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 18, 2023 13:20:34 GMT -6
I quite like the KH310. And my position hasn't changed in the slightest. I was just mostly asking out of curiosity, and also somewhat rhetorically stating that I don't think there likely is anything about the KH310 that actually makes them demonstrably worse in design/construction than any other currently manufactured 3-way in this price bracket. If I'm going to be convinced, I need real world, practical evidence that shows how the 310 is inferior in design/construction to other 3-ways in this price bracket. Hence my request for comparisons. But I hear what you're saying. I'm perfectly happy with mine too. So are thousands of other users. They translate great, are relatively affordable for what they are and what they can do, are lightweight enough to sit on a desk.. They are quiet but can get loud, have good dispersion, no holes in the spectrum, etc. They have been everything I needed in a monitor, so why would I compare them to anything else? Why would I even wonder about construction when I've had no issues with the construction? I honestly hope you never have an issue. And if you do Sennhesier have changed their attitude and make a repair available. I slightly took offence at your jibe about them not suppling parts for old gear - it wasn’t a parts issue. Just a shitty commercial attitude. I bought my G4 IEM system from them recently as the system was the best on offer in my price bracket (and still not cheap!) I’ll never ever buy another monitor from them! |
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Post by jmoose on Dec 18, 2023 14:20:22 GMT -6
Good point about the loose definition of “mains”, I’m mixing in a small room, I don’t need to make radio hits, mostly rock and jazz, lately some electronic, none of it of the “bombastic” sort. I’ve gotten quite used to my speakers (though changed rooms 2 years ago), and I don’t feel like I have a chronic mix problem - Well what are you looking for? What are your needs? We've kinda yakked everything from super expensive 5" nearfields to $500 2x15" boxes that I watched Thurston Moore shove a guitar into at 110dB. Lots of middle ground and certainly no accounting for taste! On the subject of plate amps & active monitors in general... well, passive boxes and an amp are always an option. Or are they anymore? Does anyone still make a quality passive monitor of any size?? Feels like eons ago, but when I bought the Dyn BM15 there was a choice between active or passive. The general consensus which even included the opinion of the dealer & Dyn rep said the passive's are a little itsy bitsy bit hipper then the active. Said they were just a little more 'open' on the top & bottom. Smoother. Since I already had a Hafler transnova (P3000) I opted for passives figuring I could exchange them or get a bigger amp if I had headroom problems... Maybe a year or two after I was working in Nashville and had the chance to A/B the actives & passives in the same room... Everyone was right about the passives being ever so slightly cooler. There was like, about 6% more information and detail. Not night & day. Subtle. But entirely noticeable. And FWIW - I do absolutely adore my KRK rokit 5 those are my travel speakers. Freelancing in shops with fancy pants potato monitors that I have absolutely zero time on? Yeah they ain't gonna impress anyone until audio leaves the room. Things translate like crazy for me. That's why at least in commercial / for hire rooms we tend to see the same speakers everywhere... NS10, Neumann 310, Adam's... Nobody has the time or desire to roll the dice and learn a new box on the job. |
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Post by ericn on Dec 18, 2023 14:43:24 GMT -6
Good point about the loose definition of “mains”, I’m mixing in a small room, I don’t need to make radio hits, mostly rock and jazz, lately some electronic, none of it of the “bombastic” sort. I’ve gotten quite used to my speakers (though changed rooms 2 years ago), and I don’t feel like I have a chronic mix problem - Well what are you looking for? What are your needs? We've kinda yakked everything from super expensive 5" nearfields to $500 2x15" boxes that I watched Thurston Moore shove a guitar into at 110dB. Lots of middle ground and certainly no accounting for taste! On the subject of plate amps & active monitors in general... well, passive boxes and an amp are always an option. Or are they anymore? Does anyone still make a quality passive monitor of any size?? Feels like eons ago, but when I bought the Dyn BM15 there was a choice between active or passive. The general consensus which even included the opinion of the dealer & Dyn rep said the passive's are a little itsy bitsy bit hipper then the active. Said they were just a little more 'open' on the top & bottom. Smoother. Since I already had a Hafler transnova (P3000) I opted for passives figuring I could exchange them or get a bigger amp if I had headroom problems... Maybe a year or two after I was working in Nashville and had the chance to A/B the actives & passives in the same room... Everyone was right about the passives being ever so slightly cooler. There was like, about 6% more information and detail. Not night & day. Subtle. But entirely noticeable. And FWIW - I do absolutely adore my KRK rokit 5 those are my travel speakers. Freelancing in shops with fancy pants potato monitors that I have absolutely zero time on? Yeah they ain't gonna impress anyone until audio leaves the room. Things translate like crazy for me. That's why at least in commercial / for hire rooms we tend to see the same speakers everywhere... NS10, Neumann 310, Adam's... Nobody has the time or desire to roll the dice and learn a new box on the job. Still building passive’s Amphion, ATC Quested, Auratone, ProAC, I believe you can still get Westlake without power. Classic pro speakers modern versions via Consumer channels JBl 44- - series and Tannoy. B&W 800 series, Wilson and Legacy consumer centric that have found their way into studios. A couple of the custom Japanese builders who were influenced by Augsperger and TAD offer passives. All off the top of my head. I agree if your free lance you have to have something you know that’s easy to set up and run anywhere, that’s why I have the Quested Flla’s in a Portabrace bag, while I like them better than your KRK’s every time I haul them I wish they were your KRK’s |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2023 15:27:47 GMT -6
In balance I would never expect a mid range SMD monitor to last two decades, I've never seen a pair of SCM 25's in half decent condition for $5K and even then they don't work for every room. We spend a fortune on plugins, mic's, HW etc. so is a $3400.00 dollar trade after a decade of service unreasonable? On top of that I've heard plenty create excellent work with the LYD 48's nevermind the KH310's. Ultimately this does seem to be getting a tad bit OTT.
On the flip I've heard things like the KH310's beat monitors twice their price. When I was reviewing the Neumann's they certainly didn't or I'd have bought them instead, don't get me wrong I ain't contradicting my first point here. Yes, the Core 59's are a bit overkill (so are ATC's and PSI's), one single amp on the 59 has more power than the entirety of a KH310 speaker and they are not just "better built" they're tanks in speaker form (they do cost nearly twice as much though so I'd sort of expect that).
However it mainly came down to situational circumstance, my desk is long and wide to seat all of the HW so I have to sit further back and needed the midfield covered. I crank the bass when listening to simulate club situations (sometimes 10dB) but I still need the bass to remain audibly seperated (as in it doesn't turn into mush), this wasn't the KH310's forte and the Dyn's have bags of headroom. My room works best with front ported, the phase correlation was easy to sort with these etc. etc. However if I walked into a studio with KH310's and they said crack on I'd be like whatever, cool, cool. They're not IME a limiting factor, there's just reasons to buy other things I guess.
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Post by thecolourfulway on Dec 18, 2023 15:51:50 GMT -6
I’m currently using a pair of AR2ax speakers with an Adcom amp. It sounds nice! It was as much an aesthetic consideration as anything, and the 2axs were known to me as audiophile favorites. But, they aren’t going to last forever, and I’m not sure they’re worth going down the path of refurb once they die…at least not for my studio, maybe for a hifi system elsewhere in the house. I’m mixing in a somewhat educatedly treated bedroom, $10k is probably overdoing it. Heck $5k might be overdoing it. I set an arbitrary price point to see what was out there, appreciate the conversations here I’m learning a lot and considering things I hadn’t previously
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2023 16:52:54 GMT -6
Every speaker is a compromise, even if it’s not a price point compromise it’s still a compromise. Dan’s slag of Senn/ Neumann. Is rooted in what K&H was, many have said similar things about Dynaudio under its new masters and Tannoy under theirs. All 3 were well respected for quality and had a diehard fan Base. I never used the K&H 0300 and, from a design/construction standpoint, I don't know if the premise is that the KH310 is better or worse than the 0300? It sounds like Dan considers the 0300 superior to the 310, I "think". But I've also read others say that, from a design/construction standpoint, the KH310 is BETTER than the 0300. In any case, regardless of how the KH310 compares to the 0300, it's a bit of a moot point. What I care about is how the KH310 compares to other currently manufactured 3-ways. If the KH310 is being considered a downgrade from the 0300 so be it. Similarly, if the newer Dyns are considered a downgrade from the older Dyns so be it. I understand complaints that might arise from that. As a long time Dyn user myself (before I switched to the KH310), I get it. I'm just saying that I don't understand why the KH310 is being singled out, when likely all or at least nearly all of the other 3-ways in this price bracket are all making the same compromises? I'm talking about the new Neumann KH 80 and 120 II vs the old ones. KH 310 has little to no headroom in the woofer for bass. You can easily make it distort. It is not a mains, ie full range, monitor at all. It is a 3 way nearfield that extends to the midbass in decent rooms but has low headroom there for kicks. Kicks / bass lines can fuzz out the woofer. Sennheiser will eventually "revamp" the 310, i.e. cheap out the amps and raise the price and claim it's better because of greater headroom or bass extension at the expense of the midrange. They will move beyond their hard to repair smt plate amps to impossible to repair Rokit type plateamps covered in silicone goop and add latency to the crossover, prohibiting ultra low latency control room tracking through the monitors. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2023 17:04:39 GMT -6
Good point about the loose definition of “mains”, I’m mixing in a small room, I don’t need to make radio hits, mostly rock and jazz, lately some electronic, none of it of the “bombastic” sort. I’ve gotten quite used to my speakers (though changed rooms 2 years ago), and I don’t feel like I have a chronic mix problem - Well what are you looking for? What are your needs? We've kinda yakked everything from super expensive 5" nearfields to $500 2x15" boxes that I watched Thurston Moore shove a guitar into at 110dB. Lots of middle ground and certainly no accounting for taste! On the subject of plate amps & active monitors in general... well, passive boxes and an amp are always an option. Or are they anymore? Does anyone still make a quality passive monitor of any size?? Feels like eons ago, but when I bought the Dyn BM15 there was a choice between active or passive. The general consensus which even included the opinion of the dealer & Dyn rep said the passive's are a little itsy bitsy bit hipper then the active. Said they were just a little more 'open' on the top & bottom. Smoother. Since I already had a Hafler transnova (P3000) I opted for passives figuring I could exchange them or get a bigger amp if I had headroom problems... Maybe a year or two after I was working in Nashville and had the chance to A/B the actives & passives in the same room... Everyone was right about the passives being ever so slightly cooler. There was like, about 6% more information and detail. Not night & day. Subtle. But entirely noticeable. And FWIW - I do absolutely adore my KRK rokit 5 those are my travel speakers. Freelancing in shops with fancy pants potato monitors that I have absolutely zero time on? Yeah they ain't gonna impress anyone until audio leaves the room. Things translate like crazy for me. That's why at least in commercial / for hire rooms we tend to see the same speakers everywhere... NS10, Neumann 310, Adam's... Nobody has the time or desire to roll the dice and learn a new box on the job. Yep. The plate amps are what need repair in the old Dynaudios with their junky caps and counterfeit relays and Dynaudio doesn't like to fix them. The new Rokit 5 are solid but the tweeter lacks detail versus the V series. They're not bad and at 300 bucks, cheap enough to be disposable, unlike the Neumann branded monitors that cost thousands. |
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Post by Quint on Dec 18, 2023 17:51:22 GMT -6
I never used the K&H 0300 and, from a design/construction standpoint, I don't know if the premise is that the KH310 is better or worse than the 0300? It sounds like Dan considers the 0300 superior to the 310, I "think". But I've also read others say that, from a design/construction standpoint, the KH310 is BETTER than the 0300. In any case, regardless of how the KH310 compares to the 0300, it's a bit of a moot point. What I care about is how the KH310 compares to other currently manufactured 3-ways. If the KH310 is being considered a downgrade from the 0300 so be it. Similarly, if the newer Dyns are considered a downgrade from the older Dyns so be it. I understand complaints that might arise from that. As a long time Dyn user myself (before I switched to the KH310), I get it. I'm just saying that I don't understand why the KH310 is being singled out, when likely all or at least nearly all of the other 3-ways in this price bracket are all making the same compromises? I'm talking about the new Neumann KH 80 and 120 II vs the old ones. KH 310 has little to no headroom in the woofer for bass. You can easily make it distort. It is not a mains, ie full range, monitor at all. It is a 3 way nearfield that extends to the midbass in decent rooms but has low headroom there for kicks. Kicks / bass lines can fuzz out the woofer. Sennheiser will eventually "revamp" the 310, i.e. cheap out the amps and raise the price and claim it's better because of greater headroom or bass extension at the expense of the midrange. They will move beyond their hard to repair smt plate amps to impossible to repair Rokit type plateamps covered in silicone goop and add latency to the crossover, prohibiting ultra low latency control room tracking through the monitors. I won't speculate here on what may or may not come in the future design/construction of the KH310, but, in the context of the current KH310, what are you basing these comments on about bass, distortion, and headroom? Have you used the KH310? Genuinely curious. Not for nothing, but the KH310s aren't trying to be mains, so if you're using them outside of a near field context (i.e., as mains or mid fields), and turning up the volume to compensate, yeah, then you might have some headroom/distortion issues in the low end. But you'd have that situation with most near field monitors being asked to operate in a mains or mid field scenario for which they were not designed. So that wouldn't be a specific fault of the KH310s. All I can say is that, when I use my KH310s in a near field scenario, I don't have issues with bass, distortion, or headroom. Matter of fact, they kick like a mule in the bass, and I seldom need to turn my monitor controller knob up past noon (50%). |
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