lyons
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Posts: 28
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Post by lyons on Nov 28, 2023 18:00:10 GMT -6
Hi all,
I’m looking to get a 1073 pre to use as a standalone for recording vocals (it doesn’t need to be portable).
When comparing the 1073n and spx (neither of which are handmade from what I understand) the main con of the 1073n (that I can see) is the lack of output attenuation (despite this, the 1073n is more expensive, but I’m not sure why).
The other option I’m looking at is the heritage tt73 which is a desktop unit. Is the quality of this unit really on a par with the heritage dma73 which I’ve seen highly spoken of (I note no eq on this).
I’ve never used a BAE but I’m led to believe from reading online that they are very thick(?) but at the same time they do a compact desktop unit (1073 dmp).
If I’m missing anything please let me know.
Thank you.
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Post by copperx on Nov 29, 2023 2:17:20 GMT -6
Take the following with a grain of salt, because I didn't own the units that I compared, so I did not have first-hand experience with tbem.
When I wanted to buy a 1073, I downloaded the dozens of 1073 preamp samples available at ZenPro Clipalator, level matched all of them using FooBar2k normalization feature, and did a completely blind test over several days using headphones, monitors, and car speakers.
The only units that I was capable of picking out consistently over and over agagin, not matter the source (vocals, guitars, etc.), were the BAE units.
If I try to put the sound into words, the BAE preamps create a slight compresion effect on the mids and high mids that is very pleasant.
None of the other units did this. I found the Heritage, for example, interchangeable with most 1073 clones. The clones differ in tonality, but the differences are subtle until you listen to the BAE.
Again, I'm relying on the samples provided by ZenPro, and I'm assuming they kept the gain approximately equal when testing the units.
All I am saying is that I feel the expense for a BAE is justified, but not so much for other units. It seems to me that a 1073 circuit (EQ or no EQ) sounds about the same with subtle differences between implementations, from my (obsessive) listening tests. I wish I knew what the secret sauce is with the BAE. Maybe the power supply?
I'm not even sure if this helps or not. Do your own comparisons if you can, preferably with the units in hand.
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Post by copperx on Nov 29, 2023 2:22:43 GMT -6
To be clear, I'm not saying the BAE is the best option; just that it does something different to the rest (IMHO).
If you don't care for that, I would advise you to just pick the unit that has the features and price that you want, and don't worry too much about the sound. You WILL get the 1073 tone in the clones, with some variation.
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Post by niklas1073 on Nov 29, 2023 5:13:18 GMT -6
I agree fully with the all above. I would not describe the bae as thick exactly. Its just smooth and bold in its own way. When you are trying out and listening the ones you have listed, do add bae to the listening list and if possible try them out. You might turn out to find some others thin:ish in comparison. But its all about what you aim for and what you combine them with. What bae does is it delivers a very finished sound I feel. I have the pre only and end up with very little eqing, just try to pick up the right mic and compressor for wanted outcome
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 5:41:31 GMT -6
I would personally buy a 1073 type preamp from the company that was
based in the same country if possible for future service requirements.
i.e. if you live in the U.S. buy a BAE / Europe buy a Heritage / UK buy an AMS Neve.
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Post by stam on Nov 29, 2023 6:54:08 GMT -6
Take the following with a grain of salt, because I didn't own the units that I compared, so I did not have first-hand experience with tbem. When I wanted to buy a 1073, I downloaded the dozens of 1073 preamp samples available at ZenPro Clipalator, level matched all of them using FooBar2k normalization feature, and did a completely blind test over several days using headphones, monitors, and car speakers. The only units that I was capable of picking out consistently over and over agagin, not matter the source (vocals, guitars, etc.), were the BAE units. If I try to put the sound into words, the BAE preamps create a slight compresion effect on the mids and high mids that is very pleasant. None of the other units did this. I found the Heritage, for example, interchangeable with most 1073 clones. The clones differ in tonality, but the differences are subtle until you listen to the BAE. Again, I'm relying on the samples provided by ZenPro, and I'm assuming they kept the gain approximately equal when testing the units. All I am saying is that I feel the expense for a BAE is justified, but not so much for other units. It seems to me that a 1073 circuit (EQ or no EQ) sounds about the same with subtle differences between implementations, from my (obsessive) listening tests. I wish I knew what the secret sauce is with the BAE. Maybe the power supply? I'm not even sure if this helps or not. Do your own comparisons if you can, preferably with the units in hand. It's just a dual stage instead of triple stage preamp. There is more of the output card on the overall gain thus it sounds thicker. That's it. The output of the 1073 is were the magic is. Ironically it's way cheaper and easier to build. I love 1272 preamps for this reason. |
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Post by copperx on Nov 29, 2023 8:19:14 GMT -6
It's just a dual stage instead of triple stage preamp. There is more of the output card on the overall gain thus it sounds thicker. That's it. The output of the 1073 is were the magic is. Ironically it's way cheaper and easier to build. I love 1272 preamps for this reason. Is the the Stam 1073 dual-stage? Here's an old thread on the purple forum where Geoff stated (back in 2007) that the Seventh Circle Audio N73 appeared to be the only implementation using the correct wiring: gearspace.com/board/high-end/122479-neve-1073-vs-1272-a.htmlI wonder how the landscape has changed since. At least in my listening tests, no mass-produced 1073 got close to the sound of the BAE. If the Stam is dual-stage and has wiring setup Geoff mentions, it looks like a great alternative to the BAE. |
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Post by stam on Nov 29, 2023 8:38:23 GMT -6
It's just a dual stage instead of triple stage preamp. There is more of the output card on the overall gain thus it sounds thicker. That's it. The output of the 1073 is were the magic is. Ironically it's way cheaper and easier to build. I love 1272 preamps for this reason. Is the the Stam 1073 dual-stage? Here's an old thread on the purple forum where Geoff stated (back in 2007) that the Seventh Circle Audio N73 appeared to be the only implementation using the correct wiring: gearspace.com/board/high-end/122479-neve-1073-vs-1272-a.htmlI wonder how the landscape has changed since. At least in my listening tests, no mass-produced 1073 got close to the sound of the BAE. If the Stam is dual-stage and has wiring setup Geoff mentions, it looks like a great alternative to the BAE. The MK1 was. The MK2 has three but I already have more low end than most clones as I use the Sowter output transformer which is 5 times more expensive but has that magic. I might go back to two stages if I make another run |
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lyons
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Posts: 28
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Post by lyons on Nov 29, 2023 9:26:13 GMT -6
Thanks everyone.
How useful is an output trim on the actual pre for vocals. I usually drive the gain somewhere between 40 to 50db depending.
Having never personally used a 1073 I’m wondering if that will be either too much drive/saturation sound and vice versa (if I wanted to drive more without clipping). I may be overthinking this but my understanding is the original 1073s don’t have an output simply because you would attenuate in another module.
I must say I never knew there were so many 1073 variations even from single companies.
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Post by niklas1073 on Nov 29, 2023 9:35:36 GMT -6
Thanks everyone. How useful is an output trim on the actual pre for vocals. I usually drive the gain somewhere between 40 to 50db depending. Having never personally used a 1073 I’m wondering if that will be either too much drive/saturation sound and vice versa (if I wanted to drive more without clipping). I may be overthinking this but my understanding is the original 1073s don’t have an output simply because you would attenuate in another module. I must say I never knew there were so many 1073 variations even from single companies. The output trim might come very handy, especially due to the lower input gain in digital tracking. If you want it to beef up some more or actually saturate you will end up hitting the brakes at output. Personally i dont often end up there, but rather get a nice tone without attenuating at -18db on vocals. I can drive it slightly more though because i run it thru a compressor. |
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lyons
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Posts: 28
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Post by lyons on Nov 29, 2023 12:45:20 GMT -6
Thanks everyone. How useful is an output trim on the actual pre for vocals. I usually drive the gain somewhere between 40 to 50db depending. Having never personally used a 1073 I’m wondering if that will be either too much drive/saturation sound and vice versa (if I wanted to drive more without clipping). I may be overthinking this but my understanding is the original 1073s don’t have an output simply because you would attenuate in another module. I must say I never knew there were so many 1073 variations even from single companies. The output trim might come very handy, especially due to the lower input gain in digital tracking. If you want it to beef up some more or actually saturate you will end up hitting the brakes at output. Personally i dont often end up there, but rather get a nice tone without attenuating at -18db on vocals. I can drive it slightly more though because i run it thru a compressor. Thanks, that was my line of thinking. In terms of the desktop options that both heritage and BAE do, does anyone have any experience with them being just as ‘good’ as the rack units from each company respectively. I don’t really need the portability but they are cheaper. I’m wondering if the slightly lower price is perhaps due to less metal being used and not needing to build to specific size spec. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Nov 29, 2023 13:14:50 GMT -6
The output trim might come very handy, especially due to the lower input gain in digital tracking. If you want it to beef up some more or actually saturate you will end up hitting the brakes at output. Personally i dont often end up there, but rather get a nice tone without attenuating at -18db on vocals. I can drive it slightly more though because i run it thru a compressor. Thanks, that was my line of thinking. In terms of the desktop options that both heritage and BAE do, does anyone have any experience with them being just as ‘good’ as the rack units from each company respectively. I don’t really need the portability but they are cheaper. I’m wondering if the slightly lower price is perhaps due to less metal being used and not needing to build to specific size spec. Im not sure about others but bae are otherwise the same except the dmp is lacking the impedance switch. This might or might not make a difference to you. And the mp is running external power supply., not that it should make any difference in this case but it is likely to cost a little more. The dmp also has on the other hand more DI options. With this on your hand you can check if heritage and others has some similar slight differences. |
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lyons
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Posts: 28
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Post by lyons on Nov 29, 2023 14:23:58 GMT -6
Im not sure about others but bae are otherwise the same except the dmp is lacking the impedance switch. This might or might not make a difference to you. And the mp is running external power supply., not that it should make any difference in this case but it is likely to cost a little more. The dmp also has on the other hand more DI options. With this on your hand you can check if heritage and others has some similar slight differences. Thanks Niklas, good spot! I did actually want the impedance. It seems like the heritage TT73 more closely replicates all the features on their DMA73 but haven’t seen many reviews. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,099 
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2023 16:15:28 GMT -6
Most of the difference in 1272/1290 clones come down to features and the choice of transformer. I have 8 ch of Dan Alexander’s clones built with Transformers pulled from real modules, honestly having switched out the iron to compare modern recreations nobody quite nails the original, but I can’t say any of the well known replica iron is “better” different yes, but not better or worse. It really is a matter of taste, one advantage of the modern iron, the major brands are far more consistent unit to unit.
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Post by yotonic on Nov 29, 2023 23:48:45 GMT -6
One of the very best ways to learn about preamps, comps, eqs and outboard gear in general is to try them and return them. Keep a running comparison file on your DAW. Gear and instruments are the paint colors of music. You will never really know them and how to recreate sounds you hear without working with them first hand. And today its never been easier to buy and return gear.
For example I don’t like using the BAE 1073 on vox because in my experience it creates some register shift which I don’t like on vocals. If I want a thicker bottom end on vox without that shift I get it through the choice of mic, or proximity effect. Just a personal thing that I’ve only learned by having owned and used all of the major 1073 preamps.
Try a bunch.
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lyons
Full Member
Posts: 28
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Post by lyons on Nov 30, 2023 13:26:18 GMT -6
One of the very best ways to learn about preamps, comps, eqs and outboard gear in general is to try them and return them. Keep a running comparison file on your DAW. Gear and instruments are the paint colors of music. You will never really know them and how to recreate sounds you hear without working with them first hand. And today its never been easier to buy and return gear. For example I don’t like using the BAE 1073 on vox because in my experience it creates some register shift which I don’t like on vocals. If I want a thicker bottom end on vox without that shift I get it through the choice of mic, or proximity effect. Just a personal thing that I’ve only learned by having owned and used all of the major 1073 preamps. Try a bunch. To be completely honest, if I was confident that online retailers would be happy to do this and not penalise at some stage I would do this ie. Try different versions and see which I prefer. But I’ve read online that someone got banned for doing this. Is this an accepted thing when it comes to music gear? |
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Post by copperx on Nov 30, 2023 13:40:34 GMT -6
To be completely honest, if I was confident that online retailers would be happy to do this and not penalise at some stage I would do this ie. Try different versions and see which I prefer. But I’ve read online that someone got banned for doing this. Is this an accepted thing when it comes to music gear? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but most people can't do this without pissing someone off. The exception, from what I've read, are big buyers that have a great relationship with their dealer and can be trusted to be lent a bunch of equipment just to try out. However, I've returned a bunch of expensive gear to Guitar Center without being asked a single question. In those cases, the equipment had a fault or I realized I had bought the wrong thing. But I wouldn't abuse that goodwill just to try stuff out en masse. Their 45 day return policy is great because it gives you confidence to buy used gear, and I would hate for that to go away due to abuse. Same applies to other retailers. I've had luck with Soundpure; you can borrow a piece of used equipment to try out for 7 days and you can return it if you don't like it; you can also get two units to compare, but if you do this, you have to commit to buying one. I strongly believe that big retailers should have a few demo units that they can lend to customers. There are some things, like microphones, that you have to try out before you can make a good decision. But I also see how this could be abused in order to "rent" something just to record a song, or something like that. It's a hard problem to solve. I've actually fantasized about creating a group of trusted individuals that could lend stuff to each other. That would be really cool, but trust is a big issue. Not only do you need trust that the item is going to be returned to you, but also that it is going to be treated with the same care and respect that you do. I read that John Lennon bought a really shitty guitar to play at a show when he was starting out instead of borrowing a good one because his dad did not believe in borrowing stuff. That's understandable, but also a bit sad. |
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Post by yotonic on Nov 30, 2023 14:16:32 GMT -6
I've never had an issue with that. And there are lot's of good retailers out there if you don't want to return a lot to one place. If you know you are going to buy a preamp, or a comp and you are just going through the selection process use one or two retailers they most likely will have no problem with it. I give all my business for every little thing I buy, including guitar strings to one guy so he never balks when I ask for a return authorization number. Sometimes they want to ask you what you didn't like in case you are new to the field and need some guidance.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,099
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Post by ericn on Nov 30, 2023 17:54:18 GMT -6
One of the very best ways to learn about preamps, comps, eqs and outboard gear in general is to try them and return them. Keep a running comparison file on your DAW. Gear and instruments are the paint colors of music. You will never really know them and how to recreate sounds you hear without working with them first hand. And today its never been easier to buy and return gear. For example I don’t like using the BAE 1073 on vox because in my experience it creates some register shift which I don’t like on vocals. If I want a thicker bottom end on vox without that shift I get it through the choice of mic, or proximity effect. Just a personal thing that I’ve only learned by having owned and used all of the major 1073 preamps. Try a bunch. To be completely honest, if I was confident that online retailers would be happy to do this and not penalise at some stage I would do this ie. Try different versions and see which I prefer. But I’ve read online that someone got banned for doing this. Is this an accepted thing when it comes to music gear? You do it often enough you will be punished, nobody wants you demoing gear on their dime, returns cost money, the labor cost in processing the returns, the lost margins because it’s now open stock. Everyone keeps track of every sales geeks returns, you like demoing gear on my dime? Well your prices went up, your calls might not be returned. Every time you return something you are literally taking money out of your reps pocket, at first I might work it to try to break even, but after the boss puts pressure on me and I’m losing money on the time I have invested, I’m done with you. Do realize at every dealer their are unofficial codes to tell others who might have to. Deal with you that you are a waste of time, only the newbies don’t know it, so if you like dealing with the clueless go for it. Oh don’t think it’s just sales, you will find your returns drag on because the people doing returns want you to go away. Now if you were straight up with me, and had a profitable problem free history I’ll try to get you a demo, but don’t abuse it. lastly before you think the practice of buy and return is cool, read the dealers published policies very carefully because you will probably find that legally they have the right to tell you to go to hell. |
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jwitb
New Member
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Post by jwitb on Nov 30, 2023 18:06:20 GMT -6
Whatever butttt, whats a cool 73 for a 251, i know ariana grande use a lot the ams 500 series, i think bae is cooler with a c800 cause it dark the sound a lot
I guess that maybe the choice its depending on the mic and the tone u want?
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Post by Darren Boling on Dec 1, 2023 10:39:03 GMT -6
One of the very best ways to learn about preamps, comps, eqs and outboard gear in general is to try them and return them. Keep a running comparison file on your DAW. Gear and instruments are the paint colors of music. You will never really know them and how to recreate sounds you hear without working with them first hand. And today its never been easier to buy and return gear. For example I don’t like using the BAE 1073 on vox because in my experience it creates some register shift which I don’t like on vocals. If I want a thicker bottom end on vox without that shift I get it through the choice of mic, or proximity effect. Just a personal thing that I’ve only learned by having owned and used all of the major 1073 preamps. Try a bunch. I never thought of it as a register shift but I know what you mean about the BAE on vocals. At first I really liked the bigness of it compared to the Great River I was using (and stupidly sold because of this). But through the years of owning it I found myself fighting this inherent low mid thing it had and ended up using it less and less until I sold it last year. I'm guessing in that time I also learned to not judge things on their own but how they'll end up stacking and the implications of their sonic stamp. I will say in my 12 or so years of owning it the only maintenance I needed to do was some Deoxit in the switches. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Dec 1, 2023 11:32:06 GMT -6
One of the very best ways to learn about preamps, comps, eqs and outboard gear in general is to try them and return them. Keep a running comparison file on your DAW. Gear and instruments are the paint colors of music. You will never really know them and how to recreate sounds you hear without working with them first hand. And today its never been easier to buy and return gear. For example I don’t like using the BAE 1073 on vox because in my experience it creates some register shift which I don’t like on vocals. If I want a thicker bottom end on vox without that shift I get it through the choice of mic, or proximity effect. Just a personal thing that I’ve only learned by having owned and used all of the major 1073 preamps. Try a bunch. I never thought of it as a register shift but I know what you mean about the BAE on vocals. At first I really liked the bigness of it compared to the Great River I was using (and stupidly sold because of this). But through the years of owning it I found myself fighting this inherent low mid thing it had and ended up using it less and less until I sold it last year. I'm guessing in that time I also learned to not judge things on their own but how they'll end up stacking and the implications of their sonic stamp. I will say in my 12 or so years of owning it the only maintenance I needed to do was some Deoxit in the switches. This is how it goes and how workflows differ. For me stacking that low mid push made me ditch most of my other pres. Cant love enough that sound. 🤣 This is exactly why its important for people to really try stuff off in their own environment. This is a perfect example of two persons approach to same thing can be very different. |
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Post by Darren Boling on Dec 1, 2023 13:48:56 GMT -6
This is how it goes and how workflows differ. For me stacking that low mid push made me ditch most of my other pres. Cant love enough that sound. 🤣 This is exactly why its important for people to really try stuff off in their own environment. This is a perfect example of two persons approach to same thing can be very different. Couldn't agree more, luckily we all have different (and for me changing) taste. |
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Post by Ward on Dec 4, 2023 3:02:41 GMT -6
Jist a moment to address some inconvenient facts.
1290 is the actual Neve Preamp
1073 is the EQ module. Also 1061 1064 1081 are also EQ modules
1272 is a line amp, that makes a great preamp
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Post by bricejchandler on Dec 4, 2023 8:04:21 GMT -6
I realize I've owned or used pretty much every Neve clone there is so here is my take.
Bae sounds really electric, for a lack of better term. The low mids are very thick. I really like it on guitar amps and bass. I find it gets in the way of the vocals for my tastes, I always hear the sound of BAE when I'm tracking vocals with it and these days I'd rather have something that lets the vocal shine through more naturally. I love BAES for agressive punk rock, garage but they sound a bit too rock n roll for most things I do. The eqs are amazing though. I still think it's a great preamp but one that really leaves a mark on the sound and one may or may not like that sound, it also quite drives nicely. The DMP sounds great it one is looking for a portable solution.
Heritage I've kind of come around on, I had some of their pres for a couple years and always found them a bit lacking in low end compared to other Neve clones, I didn't use them much because I found things tended to sound a bit small when I tracked everything through them, BUT they sounded really good on some vocals, the mid push was at the perfect frequency and they really help focus the vocals in a mix with no eq, listening back on some tracks I feel like I may get one of their handwired units just for the occasional vocal where I want the Neve sound. Less of that transformer ringiness that the BAEs have.
AMS Neves, the handwired versions sound amazing I think, a perfect balance between warm and clean, I find the sound doesn't get in the way and everything comes out a little better. The N and SPX versions sound a bit cleaner and maybe a bit hard in the upper mids compared to the handwired ones plus I imagine they would be a maintenance nightmare. Still the SMD versions aren't bad preamps but once you've heard the handwired ones it'd be hard to go back.
AML preamps sound good, on the cleaner side of Neve clones, not a huge huge fan of the eq.
I also use Sheps preamps a lot at a studio. Big sounding, cleaner than the BAEs, I really love these on some vocals but practically impossible to get.
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