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Post by niklas1073 on Nov 10, 2023 15:24:13 GMT -6
A moment of philosophical dilemma struck me again. I was following the 73 vs 73 thread earlier here, and as we all have read and participated in numerous discussions and many of you executed excessive comparisons I just can't help but think...
As we often will come to the conclusion that on a single source a non driven pre will at the end of the day not differ too much from another. Still we end up with countless vs. situations where we compare one pre with another and try to pinpoint the difference. Isn't this kind of redundant when you think about it, from a point of what we know about the behaviour of our pre's.
I believe the characteristics of a pre, eq or even comp will begin to show it's true character thru the build up. I will not hear the 73 (for example) if one track of a song is run thru it, maybe in the case of vocal, but as you build up several channels the difference and character begin to show. I would think if we would do an a/b test of two similar (most often cheap vs. steep) we would really hear the difference on production level, despite we can conclude on a single source the difference might be negligible.
This could explain you in time still end up with a rather expensive unit and not the hyped cheapo that seem to sound rather similar in general in the you tube video. And that something we explain with magic might have a logical explanation. Are the comparisons in this sense done all wrong and does not serve the purpose as they don't meet the real life environment?
Any thoughts?
ps. should we debate our choices of pre's on production level rather than track level might be the bottom line of my spinning here...
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Post by plinker on Nov 10, 2023 15:55:10 GMT -6
I've certainly read plenty of posts from people who appear to be tremendously experienced (I'm not) who refer to buildup as "stacking". They claim to be able to hear it. I'm not going to tell them, or anyone else, that they can't because maybe they can hear something.
However, here's a mathematical example of of why "stacking" or "buildup" it doesn't make sense to me:
- Let's say I have two savings accounts.
- In account A I have $100 making 5% interest
- In account B I also have $100 making 5% interest
- I cannot conclude that I'm now making a total of 10% interest on my savings
Likewise, if the preamp is contributing 5% to the sonics of a bunch of tracks, It doesn't seem correct to say the preamp contribution to those summed tracks causes an audible "buildup".
Since the title says "philosophical"...
- On the other hand, one of Zeno's paradoxes claims that if you drop a rock, mathematically, it will never hit the ground because it keeps traveling half the distance. All you get is an infinitesimal distance between the rock and the ground.
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Post by mcirish on Nov 10, 2023 21:27:33 GMT -6
I do think they build up with the more tracks you use them on. But, I can hear differences even on single tracks with the preamps I own. What have I found? I found I'm not really a Neve guy. I'd take a Hardy or Daking over it any day.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 10, 2023 21:49:14 GMT -6
A moment of philosophical dilemma struck me again. I was following the 73 vs 73 thread earlier here, and as we all have read and participated in numerous discussions and many of you executed excessive comparisons I just can't help but think... As we often will come to the conclusion that on a single source a non driven pre will at the end of the day not differ too much from another. Still we end up with countless vs. situations where we compare one pre with another and try to pinpoint the difference. Isn't this kind of redundant when you think about it, from a point of what we know about the behaviour of our pre's. I believe the characteristics of a pre, eq or even comp will begin to show it's true character thru the build up. I will not hear the 73 (for example) if one track of a song is run thru it, maybe in the case of vocal, but as you build up several channels the difference and character begin to show. I would think if we would do an a/b test of two similar (most often cheap vs. steep) we would really hear the difference on production level, despite we can conclude on a single source the difference might be negligible. This could explain you in time still end up with a rather expensive unit and not the hyped cheapo that seem to sound rather similar in general in the you tube video. And that something we explain with magic might have a logical explanation. Are the comparisons in this sense done all wrong and does not serve the purpose as they don't meet the real life environment? Any thoughts? ps. should we debate our choices of pre's on production level rather than track level might be the bottom line of my spinning here... Niklas you are looking at this in the sense that it is an either or situation, it’s not it is both. You have to look at both situations how any piece of gear sounds on its own and in pop situations how it meshes with other gear. The thing with effectiveness in a stacking situation is also what are you stacking it with / against as well . |
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Post by smashlord on Nov 11, 2023 2:53:38 GMT -6
I've certainly read plenty of posts from people who appear to be tremendously experienced (I'm not) who refer to buildup as "stacking". They claim to be able to hear it. I'm not going to tell them, or anyone else, that they can't because maybe they can hear something. However, here's a mathematical example of of why "stacking" or "buildup" it doesn't make sense to me: - Let's say I have two savings accounts. - In account A I have $100 making 5% interest - In account B I also have $100 making 5% interest - I cannot conclude that I'm now making a total of 10% interest on my savings Likewise, if the preamp is contributing 5% to the sonics of a bunch of tracks, It doesn't seem correct to say the preamp contribution to those summed tracks causes an audible "buildup".. I think maybe a better analogy is walking into your house for a series of days with a little bit of dirt on your shoes. The amount might be so small that you don’t notice it after a day, but after 15 or so days you say “man, I should really bust out the broom or vacuum”. Record drums on a Neve 8068 and you will quickly see frequency build up is most definitely a thing (affectionately referred to as the “Neve murk”). |
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Post by anders on Nov 11, 2023 4:10:04 GMT -6
[…] on a single source a non driven pre will at the end of the day not differ too much […] Isn't "non driven" part of the equation here? If you operate everything within range, the differences would, I believe, be mainly slew rate, noise floor and marginal differences in frequency profile and non-linearities in transformers. Most of it subtle. (Plus how they load your mics). I would say it is more how pres behave when you approach the range where the non-linearities start to show up on peaks. When you start working up towards the point where a 1073 thickens and starts to even out a rock vocal, add shine to overheads, or ooomph to a kick. Across several channels this adds a richness not easy to achieve on bus level. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Nov 11, 2023 5:16:39 GMT -6
Niklas you are looking at this in the sense that it is an either or situation, it’s not it is both. You have to look at both situations how any piece of gear sounds on its own and in pop situations how it meshes with other gear. The thing with effectiveness in a stacking situation is also what are you stacking it with / against as well . Yes you are absolutely right on that. It’s just that the a/b tests are never done that way. Which I start to feel makes them irrelevant to me to some extent. Often the difference can be very subtle on single source whereas stacked up it’s all the difference in the world. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Nov 11, 2023 5:35:04 GMT -6
[…] on a single source a non driven pre will at the end of the day not differ too much […] Isn't "non driven" part of the equation here? If you operate everything within range, the differences would, I believe, be mainly slew rate, noise floor and marginal differences in frequency profile and non-linearities in transformers. Most of it subtle. (Plus how they load your mics). I would say it is more how pres behave when you approach the range where the non-linearities start to show up on peaks. When you start working up towards the point where a 1073 thickens and starts to even out a rock vocal, add shine to overheads, or ooomph to a kick. Across several channels this adds a richness not easy to achieve on bus level. Very true. Obviously the more driven the more the character sticks out. But I've noticed at least me myself, the input levels i end up with stays often within realms of clean and does not scream character. But at the end of production stacked up it sure is there. In other words the subtle character of the pre shows for me usually at a later stage. Guitars and such i don't tend to drive the pre hard, vocals sometimes if i want to underline for example the 73 character, but most often keeping it just where its thick and sweet, where I would want any pre to be working. So yeah maybe our interpretation of non driven might differ 😃, I suppose we talk about the same thing though. So if i listen to for example to two 73s they might on their own sound within the ballpark of making me happy. But the end result can vary plenty with some harsh top ends or boomy lows taking over stacked up calling for uncalled EQing, making the two seemingly similar products rather different. |
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Post by Ward on Nov 11, 2023 9:57:21 GMT -6
How redundancies are born: Another thread started without a search means that yet another thread will be started which will beget another and another and another . . . The SEARCH FUNCTION is your friend |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 11, 2023 10:15:29 GMT -6
How redundancies are born: Another thread started without a search means that yet another thread will be started which will beget another and another and another . . . The SEARCH FUNCTION is your friend Cranky |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 11, 2023 10:16:59 GMT -6
Yeah I think we obsess about pres too much. Just give me one that doesn’t sound bad and we’re golden.
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Post by Ward on Nov 11, 2023 10:34:24 GMT -6
How redundancies are born: Another thread started without a search means that yet another thread will be started which will beget another and another and another . . . The SEARCH FUNCTION is your friend Cranky Grumpy old man morning complex. I was seen yelling at clouds earlier today. |
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Post by drumsound on Nov 11, 2023 10:41:52 GMT -6
Yeah I think we obsess about pres too much. Just give me one that doesn’t sound bad and we’re golden. This is the camp I (mostly) live in. I still have a console, and almost everything I records is with its pres. I do have an original Great River MP2H that I will often use for acoustic guitars, and vocal from time to time. And I have a Useful Arts SFP60 tube pre that I use for most lead vocals. I can still cut those things on the console and be completely happy. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 11, 2023 11:26:45 GMT -6
Grumpy old man morning complex. I was seen yelling at clouds earlier today. Grumpy I was awoken by a fire alarm, yup the burn victim who lives on the 21st floor. |
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Post by lee on Nov 11, 2023 13:03:44 GMT -6
I once reamped a guitar part into 4 different pres I had available and concluded that shooting out pres on a single source seemed pretty pointless. Unless you were going for harmonic distortion, if they were high quality designs there wasn't enough of a difference that seemed to matter. There are other reasons to choose, like headroom, transformers or not.
But over the course of a whole project, the pre(s) you choose will have a cumulative effect that does become a production choice.
But the vibe in the room, the room's design and the monitoring probably colors our perceptions more than the preamp itself. I remember booking into a popular studio for a day to mix, after tracking a few songs at a medium priced studio (Neve 80XX) and overdubs at project studios. We had done vocals with a U67 and a nice tube channel strip. But at the mix studio, the singer wanted to throw a quick BV onto one song. There was a 57 just sitting there and time was ticking so we plugged it into a 1073 in the console and everybody in the room completely lost their minds over it.
If I had something with a 50's design, or a Coil CA-70 I might feel differently. Stuff like that gets real vibey real quick. But I'm never gonna be one of those people who say "I like a vintage 312 on kick, but a TG2 on snare, 1073 on OH, etc".
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Post by notneeson on Nov 11, 2023 13:03:48 GMT -6
I've been tracking on an API Vision of late and it doesn't suck. Used to track on a Trident TSM, great sound but you couldn't push it as far, the break up on those pres wasn't musical. Didn't really matter, there are plenty of other ways to get there in the end. Long ago a friend and I reamped a loop to a guitar amp and recorded it through a ton of nice preamps. The only one that fell down (like at all) was the stock pre in his soundcraft ghost.
EDIT: Ha, Lee same idea, posting basically at the same time.
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Post by lee on Nov 11, 2023 13:05:18 GMT -6
I've been tracking on an API Vision of late and it doesn't suck. Used to track on a Trident TSM, great sound but you couldn't push it as far, the break up on those pres wasn't musical. Didn't really matter, there are plenty of other ways to get there in the end. Long ago a friend and I reamped a loop to a guitar amp and recorded it through a ton of nice preamps. The only one that fell down (like at all) was the stock pre in his soundcraft ghost. EDIT: Ha, Lee same idea, posting basically at the same time. Great minds! Probably no coincidence! It's the easiest way to get a repeat performance. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Nov 11, 2023 14:03:21 GMT -6
Grumpy old man morning complex. I was seen yelling at clouds earlier today. Grumpy I was awoken by a fire alarm, yup the burn victim who lives on the 21st floor. I want to "like" this, and yet it feels so, so wrong... |
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ericn
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Posts: 16,099
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Post by ericn on Nov 11, 2023 14:35:11 GMT -6
I've been tracking on an API Vision of late and it doesn't suck. Used to track on a Trident TSM, great sound but you couldn't push it as far, the break up on those pres wasn't musical. Didn't really matter, there are plenty of other ways to get there in the end. Long ago a friend and I reamped a loop to a guitar amp and recorded it through a ton of nice preamps. The only one that fell down (like at all) was the stock pre in his soundcraft ghost. EDIT: Ha, Lee same idea, posting basically at the same time. Lucky SOB😁 |
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Post by notneeson on Nov 11, 2023 14:43:31 GMT -6
I've been tracking on an API Vision of late and it doesn't suck. Used to track on a Trident TSM, great sound but you couldn't push it as far, the break up on those pres wasn't musical. Didn't really matter, there are plenty of other ways to get there in the end. Long ago a friend and I reamped a loop to a guitar amp and recorded it through a ton of nice preamps. The only one that fell down (like at all) was the stock pre in his soundcraft ghost. EDIT: Ha, Lee same idea, posting basically at the same time. Lucky SOB😁 Literally fell ass backward into working at this incredible private studio. Lucky, indeed. |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 11, 2023 15:05:23 GMT -6
(Best Frank Vincent/Goodfellas voice) "Hey Tommy" "Get your fvcking shinebox" "And TREAT your Room! "I've Yelled At Cloud(lifters)'s From Both Sides Now" "Stacking concerns? Real or Memorex? Could Grasshopper use his Prosumer IC Pre's... And rival the sonic marvels of Parsons' DSOTM? Like grains of sand in the hourglass... "These Are The Pre's Of Our Lives"  Chris P.S. I always shower after putting the BU67 or U195, through Prosumer-land. For a cleaner recording. |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 11, 2023 15:42:30 GMT -6
Pre-amps make a really big difference to ME and my productions.
But that doesn’t mean they’ll make a big difference to YOU and your productions.
I don’t think there’s an awful lot more you can add to that as the whole subject is by definition completely subjective.
Currently, my main go to pre-amps are,
Coil CA-70
BAE 1073D
Millennia STT-1
AEA RPQ 500
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Post by chessparov on Nov 11, 2023 17:18:49 GMT -6
Yep. My occasional "send off" lead Vocal(S)... Are only sullied by one pass through the chip/circuit Gates of Heck. Or is that dreck? Well there'd be further Plugin/Hardware Emulation options. If allowed.  Chris P.S. Great Pre's Senor Tenor! Am dreaming here of SB Plug in 2024. Bumped Useful Arts Hornet to 2nd. |
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Post by plinker on Nov 11, 2023 20:04:14 GMT -6
I've certainly read plenty of posts from people who appear to be tremendously experienced (I'm not) who refer to buildup as "stacking". They claim to be able to hear it. I'm not going to tell them, or anyone else, that they can't because maybe they can hear something. However, here's a mathematical example of of why "stacking" or "buildup" it doesn't make sense to me: - Let's say I have two savings accounts. - In account A I have $100 making 5% interest - In account B I also have $100 making 5% interest - I cannot conclude that I'm now making a total of 10% interest on my savings Likewise, if the preamp is contributing 5% to the sonics of a bunch of tracks, It doesn't seem correct to say the preamp contribution to those summed tracks causes an audible "buildup".. I think maybe a better analogy is walking into your house for a series of days with a little bit of dirt on your shoes. The amount might be so small that you don’t notice it after a day, but after 15 or so days you say “man, I should really bust out the broom or vacuum”. Record drums on a Neve 8068 and you will quickly see frequency build up is most definitely a thing (affectionately referred to as the “Neve murk”). I have recorded an entire album, and mixed 2 of the songs, on an 8088 -- I don't know if that qualifies -- but none of us heard what you're referring to. However, I've heard about the "murk" that you are referring to. I have to wonder though, if it's frequency build-up that is at question in this thread, then that sound can be replicated by EQ. Is that what you're speaking to? I had some thoughts this AM about the validity of preamp stacking. I think I get it now, but need some time to explain what I'm thinking in technical terms. More to come... |
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Post by sean on Nov 11, 2023 22:07:45 GMT -6
I think if you aren’t “smashing” a preamp to purposely generate harmonic distortion, most discrete and in some case chip designs sort of all sound to same to me. I do hear a difference with ribbon microphones, but I think that has more to do with the input impedance of the preamp…which is why I favor using an AEA RPQ or a Benchmark MPS (which has a 10K impedance I think)…it just makes them all sound clearer and less rolled off
But if I plug a KM84 into anything I own I can’t tell the difference…like today I used API’s for everything just because “why not?” and tomorrow I might use John Hardy’s or mix in some Daking’s or GML’s because I get bored 😆
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Chris
