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Post by indiehouse on Jul 6, 2014 16:54:57 GMT -6
Curious to know if all dithering plugs are similar. Can I just use the stock dither plugs from ProTools or do I need a fancy dithering plug?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 17:22:15 GMT -6
Uhm,
there are different types of dithering available for different tasks.
Dither is added noise used to mask quantization errors.
There are different probability density functions. Most common dither for most audio uses is TPDF (triangular dither). In Sonar for example it is the default setting dither.
For the final dither e.g. from 24 or 32 to 16 bit, there is a clear preference for noiseshaped dithers, like e.g. POW-R 1/2/3 (read description for the different psychoacoustical advantages for different audio content), many pro's like the izotopes Mbit+ dither like the one in Ozone.
I personally do not care too much on the final dither type. POW-R 3 fits most of my purposes. TPDF for everything else, so if it goes to premastering, export with TPDF dither on.
It is too much discussion about this IMO, other aspects really count more.
Best regards,
Martin
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Post by popmann on Jul 7, 2014 7:12:16 GMT -6
Absolutely not. Waves IDR on "ultra" had be tracking down "where is that harsh scratchy sound coming from in the mix" for an hour once.
That said....the effect of it's intended purpose--no idea, never compared.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 7, 2014 8:32:44 GMT -6
Absolutely not. Waves IDR on "ultra" had be tracking down "where is that harsh scratchy sound coming from in the mix" for an hour once. That said....the effect of it's intended purpose--no idea, never compared. so what plug do you recommend pop? your latest record sounds really good man! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 10:56:56 GMT -6
Hmm, never used the Waves dither. popmann. OK, if it can make a final master that harsh that you start investigation and lose time on this - my stated opinion may be wrong .... Maybe it was my conclusion because the dither type is a set-and-forget setting with a useful default value in my DAW (which i consider a good thing, 'cause you can hardly make something really wrong)... |
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Post by popmann on Jul 7, 2014 13:42:55 GMT -6
I use the Apogee UV22HR that's built into Cubase. FWIW. For years, I used either nothing...or whatever was automagically done in the Akai's 56bit mixer to spit out 24 and 16 bit files. I still don't know whether it was simply truncating or had it rolled in the same way it was impossible to make an edit glitch--they had some auto crossfade setting that meant you could sew whatever to whatever and simply not hear it 99% of the time.
But....I should qualify--Waves IDR sounds fine UNLESS you engage their "ultra" mode--which is supposed to mimic Apogee's forcing all the dither noise up above human hearing (I read this AFTER finding the nasty)...the fact is I don't HEAR dither. Unless it's that one in that mode.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 7, 2014 17:43:56 GMT -6
The best dither I've heard is in Paul Frindle's Sonnox dynamics plug-in. His limiter is as good on many things although on orchestral the dynamics with everything else bypassed takes the prize. I left UV22 behind back in the '90s and all of the rest of the noise shapers more recently. I think they were a Band-Aid on early converter distortions.
Dither is not masking anything. It is preventing quantizing chatter. If you try to mask the chatter after the fact, it would require an extra 10 dB. of noise!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 19:48:21 GMT -6
Thanks, Bob Olhsson, for clarifying on my misleading expression. I was too lax in above post... Triangular dither as a method to linearize the quantization characteristic curve, to minimize audible quantization distortion of the signal, seems to have the huge advantage, that it linearizes the quantization characteristic curve completely while having a constant low signal independent noise power. At least this is, what i researched on the net after your post. Thanks for your input on these topics, very appreciated (and forces me to re-read and -think things, which i consider a good thing). I guess now i should check out if i'm not really fooling myself using Pow-r dither next few times and cross check if TPDF is less audible for me in the final bit rate reduction process. I have a strong feeling that this is the case... Best regards, Martin |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 8, 2014 6:40:09 GMT -6
Listen for depth, dimension and lack of harshness.
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Post by sofaking on Sept 1, 2014 22:32:58 GMT -6
So heres a kinda related question thats always stumped me.....
If you are working in a 24bit Pro Tools session.
And youre printing your stereo mix into that session [ not bouncing to disc]
And when you export that 24 bit stereo mix as a 16 bit stereo , Pro Tools automatically applies dither, it cannot be removed, or even changed.
Are you folks who DO print the dither with a plug in the session, OK with the additional Avid dither being added when you export the mix as a 16 bit file?
thanks!
Best,
Sean
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Sept 2, 2014 9:13:45 GMT -6
Dither can't be removed nor can the even more audible distortion caused by failing to dither. I use the Sonnox dynamics plug for dither when mixing to a 24 bit file or I mix to a 32 bit float file with no dither.
Unfortunately early documentation and magazine articles about digital audio were written by folks having a big mouth to get the writing gig and zero technical knowledge of DSP. When real DSP engineers talk about "double dithering," they mean making a file copy with added dither. If there is any signal processing going on, even a tenth of a dB. gain change, you need to dither again to prevent distortion. DSP is no different than analog signal processing. Each additional stage adds noise. There's no digital free lunch!
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Post by sofaking on Sept 4, 2014 23:26:36 GMT -6
Dither can't be removed nor can the even more audible distortion caused by failing to dither. I use the Sonnox dynamics plug for dither when mixing to a 24 bit file or I mix to a 32 bit float file with no dither. Unfortunately early documentation and magazine articles about digital audio were written by folks having a big mouth to get the writing gig and zero technical knowledge of DSP. When real DSP engineers talk about "double dithering," they mean making a file copy with added dither. If there is any signal processing going on, even a tenth of a dB. gain change, you need to dither again to prevent distortion. DSP is no different than analog signal processing. Each additional stage adds noise. There's no digital free lunch! I agree with all of that Bob. But please explain in your scenario when you are dithering with your Sonnox plug, mixing a 24 bit file, then [ Im assuming] exporting at 16 bit [?] Pro Tool automatically adds dither, so you have double dither on your mix, no? best, Sean |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Sept 5, 2014 10:29:39 GMT -6
I never export a 16 bit file.
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Post by sofaking on Sept 7, 2014 21:31:53 GMT -6
I never export a 16 bit file. Gotcha. So you export your 24 bit stereo mix with the dither, and then work in another program where you eventually truncate down to 16? thanks in advance! |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Sept 8, 2014 11:23:28 GMT -6
I dither to the 24 bit file and then export it unchanged for mastering. I work at 48k, or preferably, at 96k because my experiments have shown it sounds better in the final 16 bit, 44.1 product.
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