kbb
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by kbb on Oct 24, 2023 21:28:18 GMT -6
Did you realise I was talking about the Stam with a tube the SA 87 T ? Incredible microphone. The B67 has so many variations until you’ve got to know it it’s hard to judge. Either way they’re both more interesting imo than a used 87AI. The B87 is a much better mic imo too. Oh crikey! My mistake, apologies...wow, I'd love to hear one of those, and thanks for the tip! |
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kbb
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by kbb on Oct 24, 2023 21:32:24 GMT -6
The 87 sounds the way it does because it's light in the low mids and essentially brick walls above 10khz. A lot of clone mic makers go "we'll recreate it but tweak some things" and then fix all the problems that make the mic sound interesting. The u87's "refined top end" and "lack of wooliness" are mostly due to its relatively tight band limits on both ends. If you fix these problems by swapping out for a better-spec transformer or altering the capsule tension, diaphragm thickness or feedback, it doesn't really sound like a u87 anymore.
Makes so much sense, although I've never heard an 87ai as light in the low mids...say 2-450hz I guess. I do like the brick above 10k and a lot. Very interesting that Neumann may have upped the bass in 2021...that's certainly how I'm hearing this one compared to the one's I've had in the past. |
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kbb
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by kbb on Oct 24, 2023 21:39:31 GMT -6
The 87 sounds the way it does because it's light in the low mids and essentially brick walls above 10khz. A lot of clone mic makers go "we'll recreate it but tweak some things" and then fix all the problems that make the mic sound interesting. The u87's "refined top end" and "lack of wooliness" are mostly due to its relatively tight band limits on both ends.
Man...my experience with 87's over the last 30 years is pretty much opposite of yours. I'm not sure if you're speaking to how I described or to Ari's take, but I'll tell you that after this last round of vocal mic comparisons (please never again), I don't think it's ever seemed more apparent that mics can be completely different voice to voice. I really wish that it had been an SM7 that fit the bill. I couldn't care less about about having a Neumann-branded microphone. I tried a couple of clones and they sounded pretty good at first, and then they didn't. I dunno. My time isn't worth much, but I'm still glad to be done. |
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Ari
Full Member
Posts: 35
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Post by Ari on Oct 24, 2023 22:13:41 GMT -6
The 87 sounds the way it does because it's light in the low mids and essentially brick walls above 10khz. A lot of clone mic makers go "we'll recreate it but tweak some things" and then fix all the problems that make the mic sound interesting. The u87's "refined top end" and "lack of wooliness" are mostly due to its relatively tight band limits on both ends.
Man...my experience with 87's over the last 30 years is pretty much opposite of yours. Definitely true! They can vary a lot. The U87 is a weird mic, because it's got a bit of a peak at 10k, but it falls off quick right after that. I've heard people describe how this sounds very, very differently, depending on what their ears hear and what their brain focuses on. I would describe the u87 as "bright" but at the same time not "airy" at all. The hump at 10k but lack of real extension makes it sound kind of "dry." I find earlier u87s to actually be a bit wubby in the low mids in some units though (this is due to anatomical differences in the capsule, IME), and I have heard some modern u87ai's like that too, but in my experience they're fairly lean on the spectrum of bass response. U67s are all over the place. I really like the U87's high end response. I don't like many LDC microphones that pick up much over 10k, because it's a really hard area to get right in a large diaphragm capsule and it can be better just to roll it off. 10-20k stick out a lot for me and especially with cheaper mics like the rode NT1. all I can hear on the modern NT1 is what I would describe as a weird sort of very high frequency "leaf rustling" regardless of the source that can get kind of grating. The U87 is crazy smooth up top. It's the highlight of the mic for me for sure. |
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kbb
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by kbb on Oct 24, 2023 23:04:07 GMT -6
Man...my experience with 87's over the last 30 years is pretty much opposite of yours. I really like the U87's high end response. I don't like many LDC microphones that pick up much over 10k, because it's a really hard area to get right in a large diaphragm capsule and it can be better just to roll it off. 10-20k stick out a lot for me and especially with cheaper mics like the rode NT1. all I can hear on the modern NT1 is what I would describe as a weird sort of very high frequency "leaf rustling" regardless of the source that can get kind of grating. The U87 is crazy smooth up top. It's the highlight of the mic for me for sure. Exactly this for me too. There's nothing "larger than life" about its sound IMO, and oddly enough, that's its strength. If the proximity is right, I don't have to eq my voice at all with the ai, and it finds it's place easily. It high passes the low freqs I'd get rid of anyway, and somehow does it leaving all the warmth in tact in a way that so that the melody notes (low mids for my voice) are audible even in a dense mix. It kind of amazes me, actually. At least for the standard busy mix condenser vocal guitar sound. I love singing into ribbons just as much...just a completely different thing altogether. |
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Post by Ward on Oct 25, 2023 6:08:40 GMT -6
The 87 sounds the way it does because it's light in the low mids and essentially brick walls above 10khz. A lot of clone mic makers go "we'll recreate it but tweak some things" and then fix all the problems that make the mic sound interesting. The u87's "refined top end" and "lack of wooliness" are mostly due to its relatively tight band limits on both ends.
Man...my experience with 87's over the last 30 years is pretty much opposite of yours. I am curious, confused, and intrigued by your response, and as someone I usually align with on most findings and opinions . . . beg you might go into greater detail, please! |
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Post by Ward on Oct 25, 2023 6:13:00 GMT -6
The U87 is a weird mic, because it's got a bit of a peak at 10k, but it falls off quick right after that. I've heard people describe how this sounds very, very differently, SNIP This is true of all my favorite Neumann mics. 48/47, 67, 87, 84, 170, UM57. It's kind of part of the design where those tuning capsules and mics in the R&D decided used/customer hearing loss wasn't a design feature they wanted |
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Post by drbill on Oct 25, 2023 9:58:55 GMT -6
Man...my experience with 87's over the last 30 years is pretty much opposite of yours. I am curious, confused, and intrigued by your response, and as someone I usually align with on most findings and opinions . . . beg you might go into greater detail, please! My 87 - which is a good one IMO - is definitely not "light in the low mids". It's robust and large sounding down there. The high end on mine definitely has a peak up somewhere around 10k, but I would never say it "brick walls" at that point. They CAN be all over the map though. Definitely. Of all mics I own, the 87 has been the workhorse for me. Now that I own 80 or so mics, it sees less use, but it's still a fav. Having the inner tube mod has been interesting - although I still love it in standard mode. An 87 and an 84 could get me through almost anything. For clarification - my 84 is the earlier battery compartment model. |
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Post by Ward on Oct 25, 2023 12:46:49 GMT -6
I am curious, confused, and intrigued by your response, and as someone I usually align with on most findings and opinions . . . beg you might go into greater detail, please! My 87 - which is a good one IMO - is definitely not "light in the low mids". It's robust and large sounding down there. The high end on mine definitely has a peak up somewhere around 10k, but I would never say it "brick walls" at that point. They CAN be all over the map though. Definitely. Of all mics I own, the 87 has been the workhorse for me. Now that I own 80 or so mics, it sees less use, but it's still a fav. Having the inner tube mod has been interesting - although I still love it in standard mode. An 87 and an 84 could get me through almost anything. For clarification - my 84 is the earlier battery compartment model. Only 80 mics? I thought I knew you. LOL I get what you're saying. I have a handful of 87s, and some clones, and I feel what you're saying here. For those who want a new build U87i I point you directly to Ben mics for his BU87 Cardioid (it's really a non coincidental Figure of 8) . . . Ben apparently has a time machine. This thing is either a miracle or witchcraft. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 25, 2023 16:53:42 GMT -6
Only 80 mics? I thought I knew you. LOL Ben apparently has a time machine. This thing is either a miracle or witchcraft. Yeah, I know. I got rid of a bunch of them. Gave several to Steve Perkins in the Philippines, and some to some local friends. Kept what I used regularly - although I've been mostly writing, mixing or mastering for the last couple of years. Barely need any mics anymore - but that doesn't stop me from thinking about them!!  So....on the BN 87 - you like it more than the Serrano's? PS - I vote for miracle over witchcraft!! |
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Post by chessparov on Oct 25, 2023 18:41:19 GMT -6
"(Gonna Take A) Miracle"-Deniece Williams. Versus "Witchcraft"-Sinatra? Hmm... Let me think a spell. Frank would forgive me for picking Niecy. Back in her day.  Chris |
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Post by Ward on Oct 26, 2023 7:15:42 GMT -6
Only 80 mics? I thought I knew you. LOL Ben apparently has a time machine. This thing is either a miracle or witchcraft. Yeah, I know. I got rid of a bunch of them. Gave several to Steve Perkins in the Philippines, and some to some local friends. Kept what I used regularly - although I've been mostly writing, mixing or mastering for the last couple of years. Barely need any mics anymore - but that doesn't stop me from thinking about them!! So....on the BN 87 - you like it more than the Serrano's? PS - I vote for miracle over witchcraft!! How do I answer that without hurting one friend or the other? Definitely miracle. |
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Post by chessparov on Oct 26, 2023 15:32:53 GMT -6
(Johnny Carson) "I just spoke on this mic at the Network Studio. With the dirtiest capsule" "It was SO dirty" (Audience all together) "How dirty was it Johnny?" "Well let's just say this evening, you won't need to go to Buddy Hackett's... Tonight Show". "Or George Carlin's" Chris |
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