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Post by drbill on Sept 2, 2023 10:04:11 GMT -6
Who needs to substitute drums if they are recorded sounding great. I agree. But it's an old man's perspective. I've had many clients say "those are the best drums I've ever done". Only to replace them at mix time. It's just what those who are CLA and the like advocates do. |
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Post by drumsound on Sept 2, 2023 11:22:22 GMT -6
The benefit of the mics being aligned but spaced slightly apart is that if gives you more options. The T-funk M80sh brings the crack, the 460 brings the overall sound without as much high end... Note the placement of the bottom mic? No filters engaged on that 441 . . .it give it snare snap but body as well. 441 seems really popular on bottom snare, but almost feels like a waste of a good mic. I'm sure you specifically have like 19 of them, but I'd only have one if I could ever find a good price when I had the money... |
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Post by drbill on Sept 2, 2023 12:12:05 GMT -6
441 seems really popular on bottom snare, but almost feels like a waste of a good mic. On the side of the snare. Either the 441 or a KM84. Get that CRACK!! I'd much rather use the right mic on top, or a couple, and a side mic for crack than have the fizzy crap a bottom snare brings. If you get the top right, IME, I don't need the bottom. Or maybe 1 in 20 times. Of course YMMV.... |
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Post by Ward on Sept 2, 2023 14:41:05 GMT -6
The benefit of the mics being aligned but spaced slightly apart is that if gives you more options. The T-funk M80sh brings the crack, the 460 brings the overall sound without as much high end... Note the placement of the bottom mic? No filters engaged on that 441 . . .it give it snare snap but body as well. 441 seems really popular on bottom snare, but almost feels like a waste of a good mic. I'm sure you specifically have like 19 of them, but I'd only have one if I could ever find a good price when I had the money... Well you don't have to ONLY use them on Snare Bottom. Nothing prohibits or limits you except your own choices. And I only have two of them . . . after I get through the big ticket items (on the list that I've committed to), maybe I'll go get the other 18 .  |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Sept 2, 2023 18:25:22 GMT -6
441 seems really popular on bottom snare, but almost feels like a waste of a good mic. On the side of the snare. Either the 441 or a KM84. Get that CRACK!! I'd much rather use the right mic on top, or a couple, and a side mic for crack than have the fizzy crap a bottom snare brings. If you get the top right, IME, I don't need the bottom. Or maybe 1 in 20 times. Of course YMMV.... I did the top and bottom snare mic thing for years simply because it’s what I watched the big boys do when I was an intern and assistant. Came to realize…. Man why do I always track a bottom mic on the snare I literally put the fader up and immediately hit the mute button cause it brings nothing to the overall picture. |
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Post by Ward on Sept 2, 2023 18:36:30 GMT -6
On the side of the snare. Either the 441 or a KM84. Get that CRACK!! I'd much rather use the right mic on top, or a couple, and a side mic for crack than have the fizzy crap a bottom snare brings. If you get the top right, IME, I don't need the bottom. Or maybe 1 in 20 times. Of course YMMV.... I did the top and bottom snare mic thing for years simply because it’s what I watched the big boys do when I was an intern and assistant. Came to realize…. Man why do I always track a bottom mic on the snare I literally put the fader up and immediately hit the mute button cause it brings nothing to the overall picture. not that I'm accusing you of this . . . but some people sometimes forget to flip the phase on the bottom mic and can't figure out why they don't find it useful.  |
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Post by recordingengineer on Sept 2, 2023 19:40:06 GMT -6
I go in large waves of not-miking/miking the bottom of the snare.
I usually get back into it after consistently getting everything I need from the the top, eventually screwing myself one time, then consistently not initially setting it up for a session, only to eventually setting it up during the session because it’s really needed, and then to always setting it up initially for every session. Eventually, I get back to getting everything I need from the top; only to eventually screwing myself again.
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Post by phdamage on Sept 2, 2023 20:32:38 GMT -6
The benefit of the mics being aligned but spaced slightly apart is that if gives you more options. The T-funk M80sh brings the crack, the 460 brings the overall sound without as much high end... Note the placement of the bottom mic? No filters engaged on that 441 . . .it give it snare snap but body as well. 441 seems really popular on bottom snare, but almost feels like a waste of a good mic. I'm sure you specifically have like 19 of them, but I'd only have one if I could ever find a good price when I had the money... I always feel funny that it’s usually the only place I use it! Sometimes I’ll stick one on a guitar cab but I’ve been on a tube and ribbon mic combo run for the last few months. |
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Post by drumsound on Sept 2, 2023 21:34:43 GMT -6
On the side of the snare. Either the 441 or a KM84. Get that CRACK!! I'd much rather use the right mic on top, or a couple, and a side mic for crack than have the fizzy crap a bottom snare brings. If you get the top right, IME, I don't need the bottom. Or maybe 1 in 20 times. Of course YMMV.... I did the top and bottom snare mic thing for years simply because it’s what I watched the big boys do when I was an intern and assistant. Came to realize…. Man why do I always track a bottom mic on the snare I literally put the fader up and immediately hit the mute button cause it brings nothing to the overall picture. I mic the bottom more like I mic a tom, so not pointed right at the snares. It sometimes gives a bit more sustain and body, and sometimes I mute is and think, yeah, I prefer that. 441 seems really popular on bottom snare, but almost feels like a waste of a good mic. I'm sure you specifically have like 19 of them, but I'd only have one if I could ever find a good price when I had the money... I always feel funny that it’s usually the only place I use it! Sometimes I’ll stick one on a guitar cab but I’ve been on a tube and ribbon mic combo run for the last few months. That seems like a shame. Ever try it on snare top? |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Sept 2, 2023 21:35:17 GMT -6
I did the top and bottom snare mic thing for years simply because it’s what I watched the big boys do when I was an intern and assistant. Came to realize…. Man why do I always track a bottom mic on the snare I literally put the fader up and immediately hit the mute button cause it brings nothing to the overall picture. not that I'm accusing you of this . . . but some people sometimes forget to flip the phase on the bottom mic and can't figure out why they don't find it useful. Come on now, I’ve been around the block a few times hahah. I think it’s the style of music possibly? Idk, bottom mic is wasted on me. Side bar - I think too many players and engineers spend way too much time trying to get rid of snare rattle. It’s part of the sound of the kit. So, tighten the snares too much, and you wind up choking the sound of the drum and now yeah, that bottom mic is possibly needed as part of the sound. I’m a fan of wide open let all the things ring. Except for when you need a little tea towel Ringo action. It even then, don’t choke those snares! |
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Post by drbill on Sept 2, 2023 23:45:07 GMT -6
I did the top and bottom snare mic thing for years simply because it’s what I watched the big boys do when I was an intern and assistant. Came to realize…. Man why do I always track a bottom mic on the snare I literally put the fader up and immediately hit the mute button cause it brings nothing to the overall picture. not that I'm accusing you of this . . . but some people sometimes forget to flip the phase on the bottom mic and can't figure out why they don't find it useful. That would be a rookie mistake Ward. The only real reason I can think to use it would be brushes. |
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Post by crillemannen on Sept 3, 2023 3:51:13 GMT -6
I think most things are covered but a cheap alternative is the Audio Technica ATM450. I've been using it for years on Toms and snare. On snare blended with a sm57 you get that snap and ring that I really like. They capture Toms like you imagine how they sound not like crappy 421s that might sound good in the larger picture but always sound Meeh soloed.
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Post by bricejchandler on Sept 3, 2023 6:37:56 GMT -6
I think most things are covered but a cheap alternative is the Audio Technica ATM450. I've been using it for years on Toms and snare. On snare blended with a sm57 you get that snap and ring that I really like. They capture Toms like you imagine how they sound not like crappy 421s that might sound good in the larger picture but always sound Meeh soloed. I also love the ATM450 for toms, though I think I like the AE3000 even better on snare. I don't know if you've ever used it. Those AudioTechnicas were able to quench my Josephson thirst. The 3000 is also really cool on guitar amps. |
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Post by crillemannen on Sept 3, 2023 7:17:58 GMT -6
I think most things are covered but a cheap alternative is the Audio Technica ATM450. I've been using it for years on Toms and snare. On snare blended with a sm57 you get that snap and ring that I really like. They capture Toms like you imagine how they sound not like crappy 421s that might sound good in the larger picture but always sound Meeh soloed. I also love the ATM450 for toms, though I think I like the AE3000 even better on snare. I don't know if you've ever used it. Those AudioTechnicas were able to quench my Josephson thirst. The 3000 is also really cool on guitar amps. I haven't tried the AE3000. I wish I could put a km86 in front of a snare but after seeing how my 450 looks like after 10y of recording drummers I'd say it's quite a risk 🤣 maybe if you could build like a protection grill of some sort I'd do it 😁 I also like the bleed of the 450s. On drums it really helps making the drumsetcsound more cohesive. |
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Post by mcirish on Sept 3, 2023 7:54:16 GMT -6
AT450's seem to be a love em or hate em kind of mic. I personally have not had any in the studio to try. I'm good with the ATM230 or ATM25 on toms. Makes me wonder... So many ways to spend money and in the end, no one but us can tell the difference.
I have to say, I do love recording drums. It's a challenge and keeps it interesting.
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Post by bricejchandler on Sept 3, 2023 8:13:50 GMT -6
I also love the ATM450 for toms, though I think I like the AE3000 even better on snare. I don't know if you've ever used it. Those AudioTechnicas were able to quench my Josephson thirst. The 3000 is also really cool on guitar amps. I haven't tried the AE3000. I wish I could put a km86 in front of a snare but after seeing how my 450 looks like after 10y of recording drummers I'd say it's quite a risk 🤣 maybe if you could build like a protection grill of some sort I'd do it 😁 I also like the bleed of the 450s. On drums it really helps making the drumsetcsound more cohesive. I once tried my Schoeps on snare, thought it sounded great but I don't want to risk it either. Ultimately there are much cheaper options that I like just as much as a km84 on snare if not better. |
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Post by Ward on Sept 3, 2023 15:32:37 GMT -6
not that I'm accusing you of this . . . but some people sometimes forget to flip the phase on the bottom mic and can't figure out why they don't find it useful. Come on now, I’ve been around the block a few times hahah. I think it’s the style of music possibly? Idk, bottom mic is wasted on me. Side bar - I think too many players and engineers spend way too much time trying to get rid of snare rattle. It’s part of the sound of the kit. So, tighten the snares too much, and you wind up choking the sound of the drum and now yeah, that bottom mic is possibly needed as part of the sound. I’m a fan of wide open let all the things ring. Except for when you need a little tea towel Ringo action. It even then, don’t choke those snares! I was just teasing you! LOL I assumed you would never make a such as that. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA . . . I just couldn't resist. It's like reminding the wife to get tell the guys at the garage to 'change the blinker fluid' when she drop off her car for service. |
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