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Post by svart on Aug 29, 2023 7:10:05 GMT -6
So I have a question that I'm almost afraid to ask because it's such an old thing to do and I really should know this.. But I don't.
I remember seeing back in the day that folks would tape a SDC to a 57 and record the top snare with them.
I never tried it. I was never really curious about it either.
The other day I came across a "making of" video of a band making a record in the studio. I'm doing some research trying to figure out drum sounds for an artist that wants a particular sound to every instrument, which is why I was looking for this particular type of video..
But I digress.
I got curious about using a SDC with the 57 and while I haven't tried it directly, I'm just not really sold that it's necessary for me to even try it. I've been using a SDC on snare lately alone and it's been getting me the best snare sounds I've ever gotten before.
So is there a trick to this? Are they being used to phase EQ each other, or is it really just two mics blended together and it's supposed to sound better than an SDC alone?
I tried searching a bit and I got mostly random unrelated BS as usual. Some of the purple site stuff popped up too and that's just a mess of one person liking it, another hating it, etc.
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Post by sean on Aug 29, 2023 7:58:32 GMT -6
Any time I’ve done this it’s because I’m working on a project that might have to from soft “stir the soap” brushes to wide open hard back bet…a condenser like a 451 or KM84 sounds great for brushes but the heavy hits might overload it and that’s where a SM57 or similar comes in handy.
Or, you can blend them together and might get something really great.
And it’s ok to mute one or the other. I do that a lot with drums…maybe there are a dozen mic but you might only need to use 3 for certain songs
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Post by enlav on Aug 29, 2023 8:25:17 GMT -6
Any time I’ve done this it’s because I’m working on a project that might have to from soft “stir the soap” brushes to wide open hard back bet…a condenser like a 451 or KM84 sounds great for brushes but the heavy hits might overload it and that’s where a SM57 or similar comes in handy. This is my exact take on it. I'm only doing drums as a freelance guy, so when you have all those variables (players/kits/rooms/mics), I'll throw the second top mic when possible just as an option for mixdown.
If this is some standard rock capture with a solid performance, I doubt the condenser makes it in the mix. If we're talking some old stylings, Americana, softer performances, the 57 really doesn't do much for me.
Maybe it's crazy, but I always liked 414's in this position. I haven't used the digital pattern switching ones here, but I assume the added control over pickup would allow for some additional minimizing of bleed from the hi hats.
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Post by mcirish on Aug 29, 2023 9:03:07 GMT -6
I've been using an Oktava MC-012 (with a pad) and a Audix i5 on the snare top for a few years. The capsules are physically aligned. Each picks up a slight variation of the snare. In this case, surprisingly, the SDC picks up more of the body and the i5 gets the snap and crack. I blend them depending on what I'm looking for. I also have a bottom snare mic as well. All mics are time aligned with the overheads so they are in perfect phase and I get the biggest sound. Often I have thought of dropping the SDC, but why mess with something that is working?
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Post by sean on Aug 29, 2023 9:52:22 GMT -6
Any time I’ve done this it’s because I’m working on a project that might have to from soft “stir the soap” brushes to wide open hard back bet…a condenser like a 451 or KM84 sounds great for brushes but the heavy hits might overload it and that’s where a SM57 or similar comes in handy. This is my exact take on it. I'm only doing drums as a freelance guy, so when you have all those variables (players/kits/rooms/mics), I'll throw the second top mic when possible just as an option for mixdown.
If this is some standard rock capture with a solid performance, I doubt the condenser makes it in the mix. If we're talking some old stylings, Americana, softer performances, the 57 really doesn't do much for me.
Maybe it's crazy, but I always liked 414's in this position. I haven't used the digital pattern switching ones here, but I assume the added control over pickup would allow for some additional minimizing of bleed from the hi hats.
I was doing front of house for another act on the tour But best live snare sound I’ve heard is Willie Nelson…which is an old AKG 414 ULS. But that’s was mostly/all brushes |
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Post by smashlord on Aug 29, 2023 10:33:39 GMT -6
The goal is usually to get low mids from the SM57 and the top end/crack from the SDC. I've done it with KM84s and C451s, but nowadays, I just use an M201. The M201 seems to give that sound without risking a stick coming across your nice SDC or dealing with another channel/phase relationship.
I think the technique is mostly a hold over from the days when you couldn't have a million instances of a surgical EQ to mangle the SM57 to the sound you wish it had in the first place.
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Post by dok on Aug 29, 2023 10:42:28 GMT -6
The goal is usually to get low mids from the SM57 and the top end/crack from the SDC. I've done it with KM84s and C451s, but nowadays, I just use an M201. The M201 seems to give that sound without risking a stick coming across your nice SDC or dealing with another channel/phase relationship. I think the technique is mostly a hold over from the days when you couldn't have a million instances of a surgical EQ to mangle the SM57 to the sound you wish it had in the first place. I'm just a random idiot and not a real engineer like most of y'all but ever since I got an m201 for my snare I pretty much stopped having to think about it. Oh and an mk012 on bottom. Bob's your uncle. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 29, 2023 11:14:19 GMT -6
With a DAW I probably wouldn’t tape the mics together like the old days because both mic’s really sound better on their own mics and the taped mic always moved around.
Your question of why is the audio equivalent of the chicken and the egg, it’s going depend who you ask. Again with the DAW printing both to individual tracks gives me more options to play around, plus if you figure out you’re doing this for phase EQ you can play around.
A lot of guys say they wanted the quick attack of the condenser to add to the heavier sound of the condenser, so you would see some pretty interesting single chains to get the EQ Dynamics and gate they were after. Of course I know guys who were after the decay of the condensers, but most of these guys ended up with condenser on the bottom to mic the snare rather than the head.
Chris this is one where you really need to put your EE training out of your mind and just play around if it works it works if it doesn’t, well put the EE part of your brain back on and tell us why you think it didn’t work for you.
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Post by winetree on Aug 29, 2023 11:22:21 GMT -6
The some dual micing technique is used on guitar amps, SDC & 57.
There are dual mic clips available for both snare and amp cabs so no taping is involved and they hold the mics in place.
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Post by drbill on Aug 29, 2023 12:39:11 GMT -6
I've done the two mic condenser/dynamic fairly often. On the condenser side of things an 84 or 451B are the traditional options. In one of my big mic shootouts, I was quite surprised to see than a MXL991 / 603 / 604 works great as well. And you don't have to put an expensive condenser in harms way. I don't think they cost much more than a SM57.
PS - I still want a side shell condenser (usually an 84 since it's in the safe zone) or 441 for the "crack".
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Post by Ward on Aug 29, 2023 16:51:40 GMT -6
I have 4 sometimes 5 mics on a snare, every session.
top mics, Telefunken M80sh mostly, but also a Beta 57, a Beyer 201 or even (gasp) a regular 57.
Condensor is usually an old smelly AKB C460 with a CK1 capsule, but sometimes an 84, 85, Oktava 012 or Beyer 930...even an old AKG451
bottom mic, always a Senn 441
Crotch mic, aimed across the kick to the snare, an LDC, usually a Blue Kiwi
side mic, a KM84
You get more than what you ned and then use only what you need in a mix. You can't re-amp a snare drum!
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Post by recordingengineer on Aug 29, 2023 17:49:18 GMT -6
Dynamic and SD condenser on top and ribbon on bottom has been typical here for many years. I used to do a LD on shell for a long time too, but I’ve slowly moved away and it’s been some years since. Maybe I should pull out the Kiwi and play with that again next time!
I’ve been using the AxeMount X Clip and X Mount since their release. Wish they’d expand the mic sizing/combo options though! Wish they’d do an M/S thing too! (Obviously, not for snare.)
It’s been many moons since I put a speaker on a snare to re-amp a snare!
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Post by jampa on Aug 29, 2023 18:16:19 GMT -6
Just try it
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Post by spindrift on Aug 29, 2023 22:42:05 GMT -6
In the past, I used a 451 with a pad and an elbow and CK1 capsule…this taped to a 57 with a little foam in between them, capsules aligned. This technique covers a lot of ground on a dynamic record and won’t break the bank if you have Animal on the kit. My latest love affair is with the Josephson E22S on snare….way simpler and such a great sound!  |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 30, 2023 10:10:59 GMT -6
This is my exact take on it. I'm only doing drums as a freelance guy, so when you have all those variables (players/kits/rooms/mics), I'll throw the second top mic when possible just as an option for mixdown.
If this is some standard rock capture with a solid performance, I doubt the condenser makes it in the mix. If we're talking some old stylings, Americana, softer performances, the 57 really doesn't do much for me.
Maybe it's crazy, but I always liked 414's in this position. I haven't used the digital pattern switching ones here, but I assume the added control over pickup would allow for some additional minimizing of bleed from the hi hats.
I was doing front of house for another act on the tour But best live snare sound I’ve heard is Willie Nelson…which is an old AKG 414 ULS. But that’s was mostly/all brushes 414 uls on SD is a good sound. I really like it on the shell of wood snares when I still had one. You can't re-amp a snare drum! The hell you can't!  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 13:42:30 GMT -6
Two options:
1. Start with a better mic that you’re not afraid to break. A mic! Less is more and avoid phase issues and tonal inconsistencies. m201, pr30, ksm 137/141 are all excellent snare mics.
Or
2. Become a better recordist and mixer. Learn to place and eq a sole sm57 because that’s all you’re going to get most of the time away from your own studio.
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Post by winetree on Aug 30, 2023 13:44:47 GMT -6
This is an old trick used in the past to reamp the snare.
Set up a snare drum on a stand in the studio.
Place an Auratone speaker, speaker facing down, on top of the snare.
Send the recorded snare track to the speaker. The speaker will trigger the snare.
Choose your recording mic. It's placement can determine dry or ambient sound.
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Post by sirthought on Aug 30, 2023 14:00:05 GMT -6
I've decided that after EQ and compression, I'm usually able to get the sound I want regardless of how many mic are tried.
I do spend time talking about tuning and do some trial runs to see if mic choice and placement work, but I realize that isn't always an option depending on time.
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Post by timcampbell on Aug 30, 2023 14:40:32 GMT -6
Micing snares I very often strap an SM57 and an AKG D19 together and adjust the balance until I think it sounds wack enough.
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Post by bricejchandler on Sept 1, 2023 12:48:07 GMT -6
Micing snares I very often strap an SM57 and an AKG D19 together and adjust the balance until I think it sounds wack enough. Interesting, I always see people doing this with 2 condensers but never 2 dynamics. I'll have to try it. I've been doing the 57/451 thing for ages. |
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Post by Ward on Sept 1, 2023 12:53:29 GMT -6
Micing snares I very often strap an SM57 and an AKG D19 together and adjust the balance until I think it sounds wack enough. Interesting, I always see people doing this with 2 condensers but never 2 dynamics. I'll have to try it. I've been doing the 57/451 thing for ages. Try a 460 instead of a 451 . . . it's a much more 'modern' sound. I know how ironic that sounds, but flattened out vintage condensers are the in thing with snare drums now. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Sept 1, 2023 13:05:36 GMT -6
I read a long time ago that Jim Williams favored the 460 on snare drum too. Never tried one there. I have used it on acoustic and it sounded fine thought I tend to favor other sdcs for that. I'll see if I can find one.
On snare I really like the E22S when available, I find the AUdio Technica AE3000 to be a decent substitute too.
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Post by Ward on Sept 1, 2023 13:53:13 GMT -6
I read a long time ago that Jim Williams favored the 460 on snare drum too. Never tried one there. I have used it on acoustic and it sounded fine thought I tend to favor other sdcs for that. I'll see if I can find one. On snare I really like the E22S when available, I find the AUdio Technica AE3000 to be a decent substitute too. Please see attached    |
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Post by Ward on Sept 1, 2023 15:17:09 GMT -6
The benefit of the mics being aligned but spaced slightly apart is that if gives you more options. The T-funk M80sh brings the crack, the 460 brings the overall sound without as much high end...
Note the placement of the bottom mic? No filters engaged on that 441 . . .it give it snare snap but body as well.
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Post by timcampbell on Sept 2, 2023 9:18:26 GMT -6
It is so true that the snare sound in many cases is as important as the vocal sound. It is such a worthwhile effort to experiment until you find your favorite solution to each snare type.
I've always thought that if you can record drums well you can record anything. Physically phase aligning mics as much as possible helps a lot.
Who needs to substitute drums if they are recorded sounding great.
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