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Post by bgrotto on Aug 5, 2023 13:16:17 GMT -6
I’ve been on a bit of a kick lately how Lars didn’t want bass to mess up his drum tone on ‘justice’. Watching interviews they say that record was when they blew up. It’s hard to imagine them being more successful than they are had they had bass. I feel for the mix engineer, he did his job and helped to make them a huge mega success. In Interviews he has to carry of the burden of their decision I dunno, I mean...black album mighta done the trick for them... |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 5, 2023 13:30:53 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little".…. — ETA - btw as frustrating as client notes can be, I must concede that 99 out of 100 times, they make the mixes better. So it's best to just default to embracing them. Similar thing in the visual arts world, just exchange Photoshop or iMovie for DAWs. There’s a great quote I saw the other day by Bill Hader about this (in his case, writing): ”"when people tell you something is wrong, they're usually right. when they tell you how to fix it, they're usually wrong." The key is not trying to explain to your client why their suggestion is bad and instead as others have suggested: give them what they want not what they ask for. Client relations are mostly translations. Brilliant. Chris |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 13:33:48 GMT -6
I’ve been on a bit of a kick lately how Lars didn’t want bass to mess up his drum tone on ‘justice’. Watching interviews they say that record was when they blew up. It’s hard to imagine them being more successful than they are had they had bass. I feel for the mix engineer, he did his job and helped to make them a huge mega success. In Interviews he has to carry of the burden of their decision I dunno, I mean...black album mighta done the trick for them... Yes a "metal" record that sounds like Bon Jovi's New Jersey. |
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Post by jmoose on Aug 5, 2023 13:47:25 GMT -6
As long as no one is present or taking up my minutes, I can see that being the case. So it could be a per-mix rate but with extra charges past 3 revisions and hourly for any time spent mixing with clients present(virtually or otherwise) I would disallow clients from attending the mix until the final stages. There's no reason for them to be sitting there while you audition basic balances and like hi hat eqs. Let them hear a finished version, assess it as such, and then invite them to sit in while you make modifications. This. Times 1000. I never do attended mix sessions anymore. Exceedingly rare. Attended sessions rob one of the most valuable tools from my toolbox... The first impression. Whether someone is in the room or just dialed in via interknot... if they sit around for a couple 3 hours while you fiddle around with snare drum EQ's, reverb & spatial sauces they really have no idea what end is up anymore. And then sometimes 'ya get... well I think it sounded better 30 odd minutes ago. Fuck what was I even doing on this 30 minutes ago..? Unattended? They'll get that first playback and say something like... sounds great but that snare is ripping loud & what's up with those vocal FX? Yeah? You don't like that slap echo well ok lets pick something else. Easy! Was going to say that I don't really get notes like that... +1dB here, pan there etc but realized with bgrotto that yeah, I do get those. And right you just read them and interpret what they say vs what they mean. One big part of the production gig is aligning expectations. And truthfully there are lots of great 'engineers' out there... but mixing? Especially for a living? The technical side is one thing. Learning how to run the gear but learning how to really treat & handle clients? That's something they don't teach in recording schools and quite honestly not everyone can get wrapped around that part of the business. End of the day the artists name is on the record, not mine. And yes absolutely people are going to ask for things that we don't like or go against our own judgement... but its all just another part of the business. If you do this production stuff for a living, "mix for hire" - you have to be able to separate your own ego from the music and everything else in the swirl. Otherwise your gonna have a really rough time with things. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 15:04:35 GMT -6
This makes me weight the rough and a finished mix 001 even more, then. I got to the point of throwing my hands up because I would pour everything into an 001 being finished only to have to back track a bunch with their first notes. So I started mixing for about 85% on the first mix and walking it in the rest of the way with them. Yep, I definitely do that sometimes when I've got clients who I know/expect will be particularly tricky. But it's a razor-thin line to walk, because if you really 'wow' them with a KILLER first mix that's 100% solid, they'll probably hit you with fewer notes. So sometimes that 85% thing can really bite you in the ass. Totally. They might just cut and run. Tough. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 15:07:00 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little".…. — ETA - btw as frustrating as client notes can be, I must concede that 99 out of 100 times, they make the mixes better. So it's best to just default to embracing them. Similar thing in the visual arts world, just exchange Photoshop or iMovie for DAWs. There’s a great quote I saw the other day by Bill Hader about this (in his case, writing): ”"when people tell you something is wrong, they're usually right. when they tell you how to fix it, they're usually wrong." The key is not trying to explain to your client why their suggestion is bad and instead as others have suggested: give them what they want not what they ask for. Client relations are mostly translations. That quote is incredible. |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 5, 2023 15:12:25 GMT -6
Yep, I definitely do that sometimes when I've got clients who I know/expect will be particularly tricky. But it's a razor-thin line to walk, because if you really 'wow' them with a KILLER first mix that's 100% solid, they'll probably hit you with fewer notes. So sometimes that 85% thing can really bite you in the ass. Totally. They might just cut and run. Tough. Even chase. Chris |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 15:12:33 GMT -6
Ubiquitous access to DAWs has had this effect on some people. FWIW, they really don't have any concept of what '1db' is. It's just their way of saying "turn this thing up a little". And as you probably know, a simple fader move (esp one that follows their exact, literal request) is rarely the right move. Your job as mixer is to read what they say, but interpret what they MEAN. This ^^^^^^^ was exactly what I was going to say. Interpretation is key. Blindly following "specific" directions will usually not get you there. However, there is the occasional musician who actually has that knowledge, but as you mentioned, they are more often than not mixing it themselves. Interpreting "direction" by musicians has always been key to getting mixes past the powers that be. But it has changed from abstract : "make the mix more red in the chorus", to technical "up 1 dB and HPF the vocal". Learn to interpret and knock their socks off! Good luck. Thanks! Kind of reminds me of the mental shift of seeing an arpeggio DFAC to BDFG and instead of just reading the notes and playing htem you see the whole picture as a II-V and know that a C chord is coming. It's a layer of interpretation higher. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 15:17:32 GMT -6
I would disallow clients from attending the mix until the final stages. There's no reason for them to be sitting there while you audition basic balances and like hi hat eqs. Let them hear a finished version, assess it as such, and then invite them to sit in while you make modifications. This. Times 1000. I never do attended mix sessions anymore. Exceedingly rare. Attended sessions rob one of the most valuable tools from my toolbox... The first impression. Whether someone is in the room or just dialed in via interknot... if they sit around for a couple 3 hours while you fiddle around with snare drum EQ's, reverb & spatial sauces they really have no idea what end is up anymore. And then sometimes 'ya get... well I think it sounded better 30 odd minutes ago. Fuck what was I even doing on this 30 minutes ago..? Unattended? They'll get that first playback and say something like... sounds great but that snare is ripping loud & what's up with those vocal FX? Yeah? You don't like that slap echo well ok lets pick something else. Easy! Was going to say that I don't really get notes like that... +1dB here, pan there etc but realized with bgrotto that yeah, I do get those. And right you just read them and interpret what they say vs what they mean. One big part of the production gig is aligning expectations. And truthfully there are lots of great 'engineers' out there... but mixing? Especially for a living? The technical side is one thing. Learning how to run the gear but learning how to really treat & handle clients? That's something they don't teach in recording schools and quite honestly not everyone can get wrapped around that part of the business. End of the day the artists name is on the record, not mine. And yes absolutely people are going to ask for things that we don't like or go against our own judgement... but its all just another part of the business. If you do this production stuff for a living, "mix for hire" - you have to be able to separate your own ego from the music and everything else in the swirl. Otherwise your gonna have a really rough time with things. Indeed. Luckily, I don't really have a hard time with that last part. I like driving for somebody else. Where we go is up to them, I just want to deliver them something they love, so I need to translate more. It's pretty rare that I ever get a request that I think is downright bad. If they are having a conversation with me about it, I'll be honest and say it's not really something I like - but I always end with, "but I can see how someone else might, and if you do, it's all good with me". Hell. I don't even care that much about mixing my own music. I know I could do it about 100 different ways and many of the would suffice. That's the part of mixing that kind of annoys me sometimes is that so many of the little moves really don't make a difference in the end. While many do, I think Pareto principle is in effect. But, modern mixing seems to be all about success by a thousand moves(or death by as many cuts). IMO. But that's a whole 'nother conversation. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 15:18:17 GMT -6
Totally. They might just cut and run. Tough. Even chase. Chris THEN cut... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2023 17:02:31 GMT -6
Looking for others experience and advice. So I've started mixing a bit after being a musician for years around 2007 or 2008. That was just for myself. I experimented and tried to learn as much as I could on my own. I got my first actual gig with a client(remote) in 2013. I got more clients slowly from there. I have 3-4 that return for work with me at this point. I've noticed that each client has their own idea of what mixing is. Or tracking for that matter. Unfortunately what sometimes happens is I will listen to a rough, read initial notes on said rough and deliver mix-001. With some clients, this typically devolves into many revisions for which the notes simply read something like "up 1db on the snare. Down .5db on the left guitar. Up 1.5db on BGV vocal verb on bridge. Pan guitars 80/80 during final chorus". While I appreciate the tendency for these people to lean on level balancing for the majority of the tweaks, I have to wonder if it's because it's the only thing they understand about mixing. It also makes me wonder what they even need me for. They could obviously do these simple changes themselves. It seems they have little concept of using EQ, panning, verb and compression in order to create actual depth and a bigger picture. The clients I have that actually know less technically tend to be the best to work with. They speak more in terms of sound and desires for the end result. Then I can use my knowledge and experience to get there. Is this typical just because of the current generation where every client now has a DAW and just enough knowledge to get themselves into trouble? I'm at a crossroads with recent health and financial issues that are making me take a hard look at what to do with my time. Is this just the clients you get at a certain level or is this most people now across the board? I may want to stop trying to onboard clients and find other work. Curious. Just tell them you do 2 free revisions and any after that are $50 per. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2023 17:06:38 GMT -6
I really haven’t had anyone like this in a while. It’s always the younger band/artist kids that do that. What they don’t know is no one gives a shit lol. Unless we send someone a badly balanced mix, the rest is just personal preference. I have one client that always asks me to pull the vocal back…and I really think it’s just his system that is the issue…but hey - whatever floats your boat.
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Post by gmichael on Aug 5, 2023 17:53:58 GMT -6
I have one client that always asks me to pull the vocal back…and I really think it’s just his system that is the issue…but hey - whatever floats your boat. Last few years as work has picked up steadily, and as devices and playback systems of every denomination and type are used by clients, I ask what playback system they intend to use. It's really quite varied. I have one repeat customer who swears by her JBL party box with all the blinky lights. The mixes she is most happy with always feel like the vocal are too low ( for me) but she's happy. I listen to it and want to hide behind the curtains.
FTR- I provide revisions at no charge. I don't usually go beyond 1 rev but it has gone to a 3rd revision ( which is occasionally a placebo revision depending on client), and it was bands in both instances. Yes, it's manipulative but it also works and is a handy resource if you are prudent about deploying it.
Most revisions in my experience is because there is an underlying issue with an arrangement. I will mention my concern only once and if I'm ignored I don't mention it again until the client suggests a change to the arrangement, at which time we are back on the clock at $80ph.
If the changes collapse or break the mix (eg:drums, beat emphasis,melody, bassline, r gits etc) than I point out roughly what that collapse will cost. But I'm really careful before I start a job and red flags will not get passed me usually. I'm not bashful about saying no to a job if I think a good balance will only reveal the lumpy bits I'm hearing. It can be hard to turn down work when work is slow but right now it's not and by saying no to specific jobs, I'm not finding that I'm losing that work generally speaking, it comes back to me in a better condition to get serious about a result. I'm also very leery of taking jobs that are not accompanied by the clients mix. I'm not so fussy about references but without at least a static mix, I have to think long and hard before stepping in that pile. I suppose we all develop different survival strategies when taking on work, especially with clients we don't actually know or have history with. Inexperienced bands I have very strict rules of engagement or I can't be bothered. Therapy counselling mid-wifing and all that on top of the actual job is a case by case decision. But the big one is that as soon as I get a whiff that someone is an asshole, we're done. I will suffer a happy creative fool but not an asshole.
g
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2023 18:39:21 GMT -6
I have one client that always asks me to pull the vocal back…and I really think it’s just his system that is the issue…but hey - whatever floats your boat. Last few years as work has picked up steadily, and as devices and playback systems of every denomination and type are used by clients, I ask what playback system they intend to use. It's really quite varied. I have one repeat customer who swears by her JBL party box with all the blinky lights. The mixes she is most happy with always feel like the vocal are too low ( for me) but she's happy. I listen to it and want to hide behind the curtains. FTR- I provide revisions at no charge. I don't usually go beyond 1 rev but it has gone to a 3rd revision ( which is occasionally a placebo revision depending on client), and it was bands in both instances. Yes, it's manipulative but it also works and is a handy resource if you are prudent about deploying it.
Most revisions in my experience is because there is an underlying issue with an arrangement. I will mention my concern only once and if I'm ignored I don't mention it again until the client suggests a change to the arrangement, at which time we are back on the clock at $80ph.
If the changes collapse or break the mix (eg:drums, beat emphasis,melody, bassline, r gits etc) than I point out roughly what that collapse will cost. But I'm really careful before I start a job and red flags will not get passed me usually. I'm not bashful about saying no to a job if I think a good balance will only reveal the lumpy bits I'm hearing. It can be hard to turn down work when work is slow but right now it's not and by saying no to specific jobs, I'm not finding that I'm losing that work generally speaking, it comes back to me in a better condition to get serious about a result. I'm also very leery of taking jobs that are not accompanied by the clients mix. I'm not so fussy about references but without at least a static mix, I have to think long and hard before stepping in that pile. I suppose we all develop different survival strategies when taking on work, especially with clients we don't actually know or have history with. Inexperienced bands I have very strict rules of engagement or I can't be bothered. Therapy counselling mid-wifing and all that on top of the actual job is a case by case decision. But the big one is that as soon as I get a whiff that someone is an asshole, we're done. I will suffer a happy creative fool but not an asshole.
g
Yeah - agree with almost all of that. Like you - I’ve learned that money isn’t worth dealing with a pain in the ass, so I probably take less clients than I should. You can usually suss out trouble clients pretty quickly. If somebody tried to pull the old “this doesn’t sound as good as xxx major label release” that would NOT go over well with me. Luckily, 95% of my work is stuff that I’ve tracked with session guys, so what I’m getting is the same guys you’re hearing on the radio…honestly, having killer musicians and tracking makes mixing pretty easy. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 20:09:20 GMT -6
I really haven’t had anyone like this in a while. It’s always the younger band/artist kids that do that. What they don’t know is no one gives a shit lol. Unless we send someone a badly balanced mix, the rest is just personal preference. I have one client that always asks me to pull the vocal back…and I really think it’s just his system that is the issue…but hey - whatever floats your boat. Yea. Car is different to Bluetooth speaker is different to earbuds is different to speakers etc. I know in my setup vocals don't sound as loud in the phantom center so to my clients it can be loud. A little one way or the other won't make a huge difference in the end. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 20:15:50 GMT -6
I have one client that always asks me to pull the vocal back…and I really think it’s just his system that is the issue…but hey - whatever floats your boat. Last few years as work has picked up steadily, and as devices and playback systems of every denomination and type are used by clients, I ask what playback system they intend to use. It's really quite varied. I have one repeat customer who swears by her JBL party box with all the blinky lights. The mixes she is most happy with always feel like the vocal are too low ( for me) but she's happy. I listen to it and want to hide behind the curtains.
FTR- I provide revisions at no charge. I don't usually go beyond 1 rev but it has gone to a 3rd revision ( which is occasionally a placebo revision depending on client), and it was bands in both instances. Yes, it's manipulative but it also works and is a handy resource if you are prudent about deploying it.
Most revisions in my experience is because there is an underlying issue with an arrangement. I will mention my concern only once and if I'm ignored I don't mention it again until the client suggests a change to the arrangement, at which time we are back on the clock at $80ph.
If the changes collapse or break the mix (eg:drums, beat emphasis,melody, bassline, r gits etc) than I point out roughly what that collapse will cost. But I'm really careful before I start a job and red flags will not get passed me usually. I'm not bashful about saying no to a job if I think a good balance will only reveal the lumpy bits I'm hearing. It can be hard to turn down work when work is slow but right now it's not and by saying no to specific jobs, I'm not finding that I'm losing that work generally speaking, it comes back to me in a better condition to get serious about a result. I'm also very leery of taking jobs that are not accompanied by the clients mix. I'm not so fussy about references but without at least a static mix, I have to think long and hard before stepping in that pile. I suppose we all develop different survival strategies when taking on work, especially with clients we don't actually know or have history with. Inexperienced bands I have very strict rules of engagement or I can't be bothered. Therapy counselling mid-wifing and all that on top of the actual job is a case by case decision. But the big one is that as soon as I get a whiff that someone is an asshole, we're done. I will suffer a happy creative fool but not an asshole.
g
It sounds like you've gotten a good system going. It took me ten years of making guitar pickups to do the same. I developed the skill of sniffing out people who sound like they'll never be happy and want me to rewind their order 5 times. I don't get nearly as many potential mix clients so I have less practice. Suffering a happy creative fool but not an asshole is a good way to put it. Thanks for sharing. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 5, 2023 20:19:55 GMT -6
Last few years as work has picked up steadily, and as devices and playback systems of every denomination and type are used by clients, I ask what playback system they intend to use. It's really quite varied. I have one repeat customer who swears by her JBL party box with all the blinky lights. The mixes she is most happy with always feel like the vocal are too low ( for me) but she's happy. I listen to it and want to hide behind the curtains. FTR- I provide revisions at no charge. I don't usually go beyond 1 rev but it has gone to a 3rd revision ( which is occasionally a placebo revision depending on client), and it was bands in both instances. Yes, it's manipulative but it also works and is a handy resource if you are prudent about deploying it.
Most revisions in my experience is because there is an underlying issue with an arrangement. I will mention my concern only once and if I'm ignored I don't mention it again until the client suggests a change to the arrangement, at which time we are back on the clock at $80ph.
If the changes collapse or break the mix (eg:drums, beat emphasis,melody, bassline, r gits etc) than I point out roughly what that collapse will cost. But I'm really careful before I start a job and red flags will not get passed me usually. I'm not bashful about saying no to a job if I think a good balance will only reveal the lumpy bits I'm hearing. It can be hard to turn down work when work is slow but right now it's not and by saying no to specific jobs, I'm not finding that I'm losing that work generally speaking, it comes back to me in a better condition to get serious about a result. I'm also very leery of taking jobs that are not accompanied by the clients mix. I'm not so fussy about references but without at least a static mix, I have to think long and hard before stepping in that pile. I suppose we all develop different survival strategies when taking on work, especially with clients we don't actually know or have history with. Inexperienced bands I have very strict rules of engagement or I can't be bothered. Therapy counselling mid-wifing and all that on top of the actual job is a case by case decision. But the big one is that as soon as I get a whiff that someone is an asshole, we're done. I will suffer a happy creative fool but not an asshole.
g
Yeah - agree with almost all of that. Like you - I’ve learned that money isn’t worth dealing with a pain in the ass, so I probably take less clients than I should. You can usually suss out trouble clients pretty quickly. If somebody tried to pull the old “this doesn’t sound as good as xxx major label release” that would NOT go over well with me. Luckily, 95% of my work is stuff that I’ve tracked with session guys, so what I’m getting is the same guys you’re hearing on the radio…honestly, having killer musicians and tracking makes mixing pretty easy. Indeed. The great players make it easy. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 5, 2023 21:21:15 GMT -6
Im going to just echo that interpretation is key here. This takes some practice but also getting to know the artist to know what they might actually mean. So don't take it personally, just learn how to take it where they really want it which will vary by person/artist.
2nd thing I'll suggest is getting them in on the mix. I do this with a composer for film scores. I'll do the main pass, he'll listen, then we get together and bang out his notes. He'll often say, "how about a 1-2 dB louder on the cello" and I'll he will literally watch me move the volume to 3-4dB and i'll play it and he'll go "Yes!".
I use Sessionwire for this(think of Zoom+audiomovers in one convenient platform) so we can see each other, I can share my screen, and stream 24b 48k uncompressed audio. This saves a lot of back and forth.
Then usually I render it out again, he listens again and usually has 1-3 small things to just touch up and then we are done.
Nips the endless notes thing in the butt from the get go. I do this for all my classical clients too when I do Editing and it saves me literally weeks/months of back and forth(classical editing is insane).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 21:57:01 GMT -6
Bgrotto is very much on form here.. Sage advice..
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Post by gmichael on Aug 5, 2023 23:04:52 GMT -6
Im going to just echo that interpretation is key here. This takes some practice but also getting to know the artist to know what they might actually mean. So don't take it personally, just learn how to take it where they really want it which will vary by person/artist. YES!!!!!^^^ OMG, I just had a lady in for a vanity track job and she kept telling me how much she loved the strings with her voice. Then she asked if we do something more with the violins and cello's...  ?!!!!!? In her speak: Strings = guitars <facepalm>
It's so important to spend as much time speaking directly to people as reasonably possible if for any other reason to get a vibe on how and what language they use. Nail that understanding and you have a client til death do you part!!lol
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 6, 2023 7:58:51 GMT -6
It’s a service industry. And comes with all the attendant headaches. I will say, bands often notice things I don’t. I get busy making the drums slap and they notice there’s a harmony missing on the second verse. Or whatever. The numerical thing I would just use as guidance, same with panning. People will give me numbers and I’ll just do what I think they want to hear. Totally. I think the service industry part is what attracts me to it. You help someone's imagination or idea be realized. That's very cool. I also relate to the band noticing things we don't. There is a lot going through our heads as engineers that isn't going through theirs. Pilots refer to "task saturation" where there is just too much going on to notice everything. An F-15 cockpit has over 200 dials and switches to manage. Kinda looks like a weird console. lol. It's indeed a collaborative effort. |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 6, 2023 9:47:54 GMT -6
It’s a service industry. And comes with all the attendant headaches. I will say, bands often notice things I don’t. I get busy making the drums slap and they notice there’s a harmony missing on the second verse. Or whatever. The numerical thing I would just use as guidance, same with panning. People will give me numbers and I’ll just do what I think they want to hear. Totally. I think the service industry part is what attracts me to it. You help someone's imagination or idea be realized. That's very cool. I also relate to the band noticing things we don't. There is a lot going through our heads as engineers that isn't going through theirs. Pilots refer to "task saturation" where there is just too much going on to notice everything. An F-15 cockpit has over 200 dials and switches to manage. Kinda looks like a weird console. lol. It's indeed a collaborative effort. That's a great term for it. I'm gonna steal that. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 6, 2023 9:56:47 GMT -6
Totally. I think the service industry part is what attracts me to it. You help someone's imagination or idea be realized. That's very cool. I also relate to the band noticing things we don't. There is a lot going through our heads as engineers that isn't going through theirs. Pilots refer to "task saturation" where there is just too much going on to notice everything. An F-15 cockpit has over 200 dials and switches to manage. Kinda looks like a weird console. lol. It's indeed a collaborative effort. That's a great term for it. I'm gonna steal that. The military has some pretty good terminology for these things. Another one is "target fixation". Ground attack aircraft can sometimes actually fly into the ground as the pilot is so fixated on the target they forget to pull up in time. Lots of parallels except thankfully no one dies when we don't notice the BGV's are muted. |
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 6, 2023 11:46:17 GMT -6
That's a great term for it. I'm gonna steal that. The military has some pretty good terminology for these things. Another one is "target fixation". Ground attack aircraft can sometimes actually fly into the ground as the pilot is so fixated on the target they forget to pull up in time. Lots of parallels except thankfully no one dies when we don't notice the BGV's are muted. I've worked with more than a few clients who might compel me to challenge this last assertion 🤣 |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 6, 2023 11:49:00 GMT -6
Well at least the Grateful Dead might still appreciate it.
And then break out the Ripple.
Chris
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?!!!!!?
