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Post by Quint on Jul 27, 2023 19:13:02 GMT -6
gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/87450-wilco-sound.htmlI've found myself coming back to this GS thread multiple times over the years whenever just such a discussion as the one taking place here now is taking place. There's a lot of good discussion (from Chris Shaw, the engineer himself) and inspiration (and very useful pics!) to sink your teeth into in that Wilco thread.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 27, 2023 19:19:55 GMT -6
Nice link. I’m a massive fan of the sounds Wilco gets. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 27, 2023 19:21:44 GMT -6
Nice link. I’m a massive fan of the sounds Wilco gets. I thought you might like that thread. From the little bit we've talked about musical tastes, I thought that thread might be right up your alley. I too am a big fan of the sounds Wilco gets. A Ghost Is Born is my favorite Wilco album, followed by YHF and Sky Blue Sky trading places for second. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 27, 2023 19:38:06 GMT -6
Nice link. I’m a massive fan of the sounds Wilco gets. I thought you might like that thread. From the little bit we've talked about musical tastes, I thought that thread might be right up your alley. I too am a big fan of the sounds Wilco gets. A Ghost Is Born is my favorite Wilco album, followed by YHF and Sky Blue Sky trading places for second. I never get tired of YHF. Big Summerteeth fan. That to me is when they started sounding like “Wilco” and less like “the other dude from Uncle Tupelo.” |
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Post by Quint on Jul 27, 2023 19:47:34 GMT -6
I thought you might like that thread. From the little bit we've talked about musical tastes, I thought that thread might be right up your alley. I too am a big fan of the sounds Wilco gets. A Ghost Is Born is my favorite Wilco album, followed by YHF and Sky Blue Sky trading places for second. I never get tired of YHF. Big Summerteeth fan. That to me is when they started sounding like “Wilco” and less like “the other dude from Uncle Tupelo.” I'll tell you a funny personal story about Son Volt whenever we finally meet up for that beer. My Morning Jacket was involved, so I blame them... |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 27, 2023 21:10:09 GMT -6
I never get tired of YHF. Big Summerteeth fan. That to me is when they started sounding like “Wilco” and less like “the other dude from Uncle Tupelo.” I'll tell you a funny personal story about Son Volt whenever we finally meet up for that beer. My Morning Jacket was involved, so I blame them... Sounds like a good one! |
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Post by sirthought on Jul 27, 2023 22:53:24 GMT -6
There's a good article in Sound On Sound about tracking The Pretenders' Learning to Crawl album. They had a room set up almost like a rock club with the drums on risers (if I remember correctly) and monitors were certainly in the room, and likely part of the tracks.
Regarding one comment about concern over a bass amp in the room making snares rattle...I've been there before. My old drummer would argue that that ambient rattle is part of the overall drum kit sounds, thus part of what the band sounds like with the kit. He'd certainly mute the snares for certain pieces, but wasn't about to sweat it on most tunes. It's a dilemma of whether to fight that logic or not.
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Post by sirthought on Jul 27, 2023 22:56:07 GMT -6
There's a good article in Sound On Sound about tracking The Pretenders' Learning to Crawl album. They had a room set up almost like a rock club with the drums on risers (if I remember correctly) and monitors were certainly in the room, and likely part of the tracks. Regarding one comment about concern over a bass amp in the room making snares rattle...I've been there before. My old drummer would argue that that ambient rattle is part of the overall drum kit sounds, thus part of what the band sounds like with the kit. He'd certainly mute the snares for certain pieces, but wasn't about to sweat it on most tunes. It's a dilemma of whether to fight that logic or not. I think gobos, mic choice, and mic placement would have more to contribute to separate than the amp placement with the drums. But hey, I'd try it with the right opportunity. As has been said here by others, I have learned to love ribbons and other figure 8 mics for working in smaller rooms. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 28, 2023 1:47:51 GMT -6
There's a good article in Sound On Sound about tracking The Pretenders' Learning to Crawl album. They had a room set up almost like a rock club with the drums on risers (if I remember correctly) and monitors were certainly in the room, and likely part of the tracks. Regarding one comment about concern over a bass amp in the room making snares rattle...I've been there before. My old drummer would argue that that ambient rattle is part of the overall drum kit sounds, thus part of what the band sounds like with the kit. He'd certainly mute the snares for certain pieces, but wasn't about to sweat it on most tunes. It's a dilemma of whether to fight that logic or not. |
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Post by drumsound on Jul 28, 2023 8:39:08 GMT -6
There's a good article in Sound On Sound about tracking The Pretenders' Learning to Crawl album. They had a room set up almost like a rock club with the drums on risers (if I remember correctly) and monitors were certainly in the room, and likely part of the tracks. Regarding one comment about concern over a bass amp in the room making snares rattle...I've been there before. My old drummer would argue that that ambient rattle is part of the overall drum kit sounds, thus part of what the band sounds like with the kit. He'd certainly mute the snares for certain pieces, but wasn't about to sweat it on most tunes. It's a dilemma of whether to fight that logic or not. As a drummer, I'm very consciences of snare rattle. If there's a breakdown, or part of a song that I lay out, I turn the snares off when playing live. It's part of rehearsal to work those parts out. I'm constantly changing snare tension based on tempo and dynamics, so on some songs they might be really obnoxious if I didn't. |
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Post by Ward on Jul 28, 2023 11:26:54 GMT -6
Snare rattle no longer bothers me. I track bass and drums in the same room 90% of the time when working with a band, and it always sounds right.
Reality in music (despite autotune soothe etc) doesn't have to be the enemy.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 28, 2023 13:41:06 GMT -6
I never get tired of YHF. Big Summerteeth fan. That to me is when they started sounding like “Wilco” and less like “the other dude from Uncle Tupelo.” I'll tell you a funny personal story about Son Volt whenever we finally meet up for that beer. My Morning Jacket was involved, so I blame them... You inspired me to re-watch I Am Trying To Break Your Heart last night. Always inspiring. Somehow the internet overlords know that I did that and I'm seeing ads for the Where Are You, Jay Bennett? documentary. Never watched that. Any good? |
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Post by drumsound on Jul 28, 2023 21:36:08 GMT -6
Snare rattle no longer bothers me. I track bass and drums in the same room 90% of the time when working with a band, and it always sounds right. Reality in music (despite autotune soothe etc) doesn't have to be the enemy. I actually overdubbed a drummer today, because the verses were all toms and the snare rattle was driving me nuts. I'll tell you a funny personal story about Son Volt whenever we finally meet up for that beer. My Morning Jacket was involved, so I blame them... You inspired me to re-watch I Am Trying To Break Your Heart last night. Always inspiring. Somehow the internet overlords know that I did that and I'm seeing ads for the Where Are You, Jay Bennett? documentary. Never watched that. Any good? Oh, Jay... So sad. |
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Post by jmoose on Jul 31, 2023 16:52:58 GMT -6
Vance Powell talks about it a bit here... bit long but some good stuff buried within.
Yes line the front of the amps up with the edge of the drums... more or less like a regular stage backline.
The one real "trick" to making the technique work, to where you don't wind up with a pile of un-mixable bleed is this - Don't put any bad sound into the room.
If it doesn't sound "good" and kinda balanced when your standing in the middle of the band? Probably doomed because there's precious little you can do to alter things later.
And one of the keys to that is going to be small amps. Like a Princeton. If someone shows up with a Super reverb or 1/2 stack? Might be doomed. Find an iso booth or abandon ship. If the band gets into volume wars? Abandon ship etc.
So that end, things like having acoustic guitars and tube vocal mics in the big room? Ya know, there are reasons we don't see that very often if ever. Frank Sinatra and the days of 4 track recording aside... bands are louder today and we have better methods of isolation, more available tracks etc to bother with torturing ourselves.
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Post by Quint on Jul 31, 2023 19:37:27 GMT -6
I'll tell you a funny personal story about Son Volt whenever we finally meet up for that beer. My Morning Jacket was involved, so I blame them... You inspired me to re-watch I Am Trying To Break Your Heart last night. Always inspiring. Somehow the internet overlords know that I did that and I'm seeing ads for the Where Are You, Jay Bennett? documentary. Never watched that. Any good? I haven't seen the Jay Bennet doc, I don't think. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 1, 2023 7:35:43 GMT -6
Vance Powell talks about it a bit here... bit long but some good stuff buried within. Yes line the front of the amps up with the edge of the drums... more or less like a regular stage backline. The one real "trick" to making the technique work, to where you don't wind up with a pile of un-mixable bleed is this - Don't put any bad sound into the room. If it doesn't sound "good" and kinda balanced when your standing in the middle of the band? Probably doomed because there's precious little you can do to alter things later. And one of the keys to that is going to be small amps. Like a Princeton. If someone shows up with a Super reverb or 1/2 stack? Might be doomed. Find an iso booth or abandon ship. If the band gets into volume wars? Abandon ship etc. So that end, things like having acoustic guitars and tube vocal mics in the big room? Ya know, there are reasons we don't see that very often if ever. Frank Sinatra and the days of 4 track recording aside... bands are louder today and we have better methods of isolation, more available tracks etc to bother with torturing ourselves. Very cool post /exposé on a production and mix. So many quasi trashy elements fit together to make something beautiful. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 1, 2023 10:01:57 GMT -6
Vance Powell talks about it a bit here... bit long but some good stuff buried within. Yes line the front of the amps up with the edge of the drums... more or less like a regular stage backline. The one real "trick" to making the technique work, to where you don't wind up with a pile of un-mixable bleed is this - Don't put any bad sound into the room. If it doesn't sound "good" and kinda balanced when your standing in the middle of the band? Probably doomed because there's precious little you can do to alter things later. And one of the keys to that is going to be small amps. Like a Princeton. If someone shows up with a Super reverb or 1/2 stack? Might be doomed. Find an iso booth or abandon ship. If the band gets into volume wars? Abandon ship etc. So that end, things like having acoustic guitars and tube vocal mics in the big room? Ya know, there are reasons we don't see that very often if ever. Frank Sinatra and the days of 4 track recording aside... bands are louder today and we have better methods of isolation, more available tracks etc to bother with torturing ourselves. Very cool post /exposé on a production and mix. So many quasi trashy elements fit together to make something beautiful. Yeah I really enjoyed that video. I'd love to see more videos like this with 1) Producers that don't suck 2) Bands that aren't lame 3) People that aren't trying to sell me something, or at least not so overtly |
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Post by Ward on Aug 1, 2023 11:37:44 GMT -6
SNIP . . . . sell me something, or at least not so overtly Sorry about that, but in my defense . . . everything I've pushed as an 'evangelist' has been AWESOME gear! LOL |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 1, 2023 11:40:13 GMT -6
SNIP . . . . sell me something, or at least not so overtly Sorry about that, but in my defense . . . everything I've pushed as an 'evangelist' has been AWESOME gear! LOL Haha... I'm more talking about the Luna videos and stuff like that. It's actually interesting seeing some high level engineers track a song, but you have to filter out a LOT of Luna propaganda. Now, Audio-Scape? Sometimes I just gaze lovingly at my Optocomp but I feel sad that it doesn't have any Audio-Scape siblings to play with. Promote away! |
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Post by srb on Aug 1, 2023 13:37:24 GMT -6
I enjoyed the Vance Powell video. Made a nice complement to my coffee consumption this morning.
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Post by bossanova on Aug 1, 2023 14:51:56 GMT -6
gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/87450-wilco-sound.htmlI've found myself coming back to this GS thread multiple times over the years whenever just such a discussion as the one taking place here now is taking place. There's a lot of good discussion (from Chris Shaw, the engineer himself) and inspiration (and very useful pics!) to sink your teeth into in that Wilco thread. Oooooo…that’s a good one. Thanks. Great to see another SM7 on vocals reference album  |
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Post by jmoose on Aug 1, 2023 15:17:09 GMT -6
Very cool post /exposé on a production and mix. So many quasi trashy elements fit together to make something beautiful. Yeah I really enjoyed that video. I'd love to see more videos like this with 1) Producers that don't suck 2) Bands that aren't lame 3) People that aren't trying to sell me something, or at least not so overtly For sure. Especially #3 but I think there's a reason for that.. hold on here... Honestly when I found that video a few years ago it was refreshing but also validating. Mostly because when I do try & watch some utoob videos on production I kinda feel like a freak because very little of what I see resembles the way I typically work. But watching that? It could almost be my own session... From the band tracking live (with dubs)... drums through guitar pedals... not a lot of plugs on the session (I'd bet the farm I have the smallest plug collection on the forum)... printing FX... DAW as tape/sub mixer to an actual desk with physical outboard... the whole trip. So to me its like Vance says... old school record making by design. Which is becoming something of a lost art but I digress... only slightly. Anyway I had this stupid idea early into the panda-year to start a utoob channel, something that friends have been saying I should do forever but I never had a great idea and didn't want to be another Beato goofball pushing gear & doing BS reviews... Then the concept hit me and died nearly as quickly. Was going to be half live at KEXP/From the basement vibe... Get a band in, play, get the whole performance so there's something regular people can enjoy...and the other half would be session documentation & breakdown. Go through all the signal chain stuff front to back no secrets for audio nerds... which quite truthfully wouldn't be all that different from that hour with Mr Powell. Simple! And I made up a list of about 10 bands that I either already knew or wanted to work with... and after talking to about six of them & some other people realized it'd never fly. The million dollar hurdle, quite literally is clearances. Securing rights. Especially with the label bands it was a roadblock. Which to bring it back around... is potentially something that the "puremix" & others of the world like radio stations that might have deeper pockets & more connections (aka attorneys on retainer) have an easier time navigating? Really dunno. Just knew that I wasn't about to drop coin on hiring an attorney to do paperwork... Who knows. Maybe one day I'll investigate again and it'll grow some legs. Really can't do anything without artists & labels being totally onboard. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 1, 2023 15:22:18 GMT -6
Yeah I really enjoyed that video. I'd love to see more videos like this with 1) Producers that don't suck 2) Bands that aren't lame 3) People that aren't trying to sell me something, or at least not so overtly For sure. Especially #3 but I think there's a reason for that.. hold on here... Honestly when I found that video a few years ago it was refreshing but also validating. Mostly because when I do try & watch some utoob videos on production I kinda feel like a freak because very little of what I see resembles the way I typically work. But watching that? It could almost be my own session... From the band tracking live (with dubs)... drums through guitar pedals... not a lot of plugs on the session (I'd bet the farm I have the smallest plug collection on the forum)... printing FX... DAW as tape/sub mixer to an actual desk with physical outboard... the whole trip. So to me its like Vance says... old school record making by design. Which is becoming something of a lost art but I digress... only slightly. Anyway I had this stupid idea early into the panda-year to start a utoob channel, something that friends have been saying I should do forever but I never had a great idea and didn't want to be another Beato goofball pushing gear & doing BS reviews... Then the concept hit me and died nearly as quickly. Was going to be half live at KEXP/From the basement vibe... Get a band in, play, get the whole performance so there's something regular people can enjoy...and the other half would be session documentation & breakdown. Go through all the signal chain stuff front to back no secrets for audio nerds... which quite truthfully wouldn't be all that different from that hour with Mr Powell. Simple! And I made up a list of about 10 bands that I either already knew or wanted to work with... and after talking to about six of them & some other people realized it'd never fly. The million dollar hurdle, quite literally is clearances. Securing rights. Especially with the label bands it was a roadblock. Which to bring it back around... is potentially something that the "puremix" & others of the world like radio stations that might have deeper pockets & more connections (aka attorneys on retainer) have an easier time navigating? Really dunno. Just knew that I wasn't about to drop coin on hiring an attorney to do paperwork... Who knows. Maybe one day I'll investigate again and it'll grow some legs. Really can't do anything without artists & labels being totally onboard. Bummer. I would have loved that. Interesting though, maybe I should do that with my own band. I'm the only one who needs clearances and I can be easily convinced! |
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Post by jmoose on Aug 1, 2023 15:36:40 GMT -6
Bummer. I would have loved that. Interesting though, maybe I should do that with my own band. I'm the only one who needs clearances and I can be easily convinced! I think a lot of people would've loved it. And most of the people I pitched the concept too loved it... then things got complicated. Stupid legal stuff. And sure, I can grant clearance for my own band too. The problem is that one band isn't sustainable for a channel. And it'd be a shit ton of work to only attract about 75 views. Long run for a short slide. But realistically if I got about 6 or 7 yes's I could essentially flip the switch and start making content tomorrow. Just put up some cameras. Sounds way easier then it actually is! But without outside support its just another goofy idea in the bin. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 1, 2023 15:40:56 GMT -6
Bummer. I would have loved that. Interesting though, maybe I should do that with my own band. I'm the only one who needs clearances and I can be easily convinced! I think a lot of people would've loved it. And most of the people I pitched the concept too loved it... then things got complicated. Stupid legal stuff. And sure, I can grant clearance for my own band too. The problem is that one band isn't sustainable for a channel. And it'd be a shit ton of work to only attract about 75 views. Long run for a short slide. But realistically if I got about 6 or 7 yes's I could essentially flip the switch and start making content tomorrow. Just put up some cameras. Sounds way easier then it actually is! But without outside support its just another goofy idea in the bin. Yeah, one band does not a channel make. No doubt. |
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