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Post by RealNoob on Jul 24, 2023 21:50:29 GMT -6
I ask this as I believe no one has perfect monitors where the response is totally flat or full of detail.
Q: Knowing the flaws of your monitors, such as being a bit mid forward or relaxed/scooped, how do you mix with these flaws in mind; how do you get around it? Let's say with mid forward monitors that serve you well with detail for days, but has a slight MF honk. What do you do to arrive at the place where you feel the tonality is on point. Perhaps it is vise versa?
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Post by drumsound on Jul 24, 2023 23:44:25 GMT -6
Correction DSP
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Post by ragan on Jul 24, 2023 23:57:09 GMT -6
I use Sonarworks, though it's not doing anything drastic. My real secrete weapon is Metric AB.
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Post by mcirish on Jul 25, 2023 5:40:45 GMT -6
Sonarworks has been the best investment I made in my small studio. My room is well treated and I have very good monitors. Unfortunately, every room has issues and there's going to be some huge dips and peaks. Sonarworks isn't perfect but at least for me, at the mix position, what I hear is accurate. No more endless trips to the car to see if it sounds right.
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Post by nick8801 on Jul 25, 2023 6:07:26 GMT -6
Used to do the Sonarworks thing but stopped recently. I never really liked the volume difference it caused and I’ve just gotten used to my speakers ATC SCM12’s. They can be slightly bloomy in the low mids (warm sounding), but I just work with it. I think if you stick with your monitors for long enough, as long as your room is good, you’ll be fine with whatever you enjoy working on.
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Post by mcirish on Jul 25, 2023 10:06:38 GMT -6
Used to do the Sonarworks thing but stopped recently. I never really liked the volume difference it caused and I’ve just gotten used to my speakers ATC SCM12’s. They can be slightly bloomy in the low mids (warm sounding), but I just work with it. I think if you stick with your monitors for long enough, as long as your room is good, you’ll be fine with whatever you enjoy working on. I didn't have that experience. I worked in my studio for a couple decades and never could get the low end correct. When I made it sound like I wanted it, I'd find that it was way boomy at 80hz. After running the frequency tests on my system, I found a 16dB dip at 80hz and a 6dB peak at 40hz. Then I did a lot more moving and testing till I got the null down to 8dB but my room was still a problem. Last couple years with Sonarworks has been great for me. The mastering engineer rarely comes back with any EQ issues in the low end. Before, it was horrible how many times I would have to remix. But, knowing the speakers is the most important thing so if it works for you, that's all that matters.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 25, 2023 10:17:39 GMT -6
I would highly encourage the Trinnov for every studio. Especially since it’s a little more economical now. I recently went back and forth with sonorworks again just to see if I could live without it…and I can’t. I bypass when I’m playing electric, because I’m listening through the monitors, so I’ll occasionally forget to flip it back on. So I’ll start mixing and think - “damn…that kick is boomy, where’s the bass…or that midrange is bright as hell etc…” then I realize the Trinnov is bypassed.
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Post by mcirish on Jul 25, 2023 11:28:30 GMT -6
Which version of Trinnov are you using John? It still looks super expensive to me.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 25, 2023 12:25:41 GMT -6
If Ethan were here he would tell you “ treat the room treat the room”, simplistic single axis approach, well on this one there is no simple approach unless you’re selling one. Treating the room is great, but it acts in very broad ways unless we are talking custom tuned room treatment and even then you’re going to find position and a bit of DSP go a long way. Start with position, the old rule of the triangle is a great place to start, but also take into account any positioning suggestions from the manufacturer. Move them till you get the most exceptable sound to your ears and measurements. Now treat the room. OK we are going to reavaluate our positioning choices because we changed the room and painted in broad strokes, next we add DSP / correction software of your choice if room treatment was macro correction this is micro here we are going to let the computer do the work. Now we once again measure and listen. Hear comes the hardest part learning the monitors, chances are what we have isn’t going to represent what we imagined so we have to learn the monitors and figure out what they get right and what they get wrong, bad news at this point I guarantee there is going to be some new sexy speakers that make us start all over again. Understanding the physics and that we are not going to get 25HZ out of a closet is important. More and more people are beginning to realize 2 lesser subs are going to both go further and be easier to tune than that one great sub.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2023 12:34:50 GMT -6
Work around it. Use it to your benefit. So many guys do not want to exploit the flaws of their good monitors that provide translation! Not every monitor is an old Genelec with limited translation from black hole crossover regions or Genelec One or Neumann KH with limited headroom, multiband limiters, and soft clippers!
Forward mids? Mix vocals until they’re just audible and it will be great on another system. Scooped mids? Sit em maybe a little different? Presence crossover dip? Make the guitars present and they’ll be audible everywhere 3khz little boost like ATC SL? Clean up the ice picks. Don’t boost 3K into noisy city. Low mid thickness like Dynaudio, Proac, ATC non SL, Quested? Make it normal and it will be normal to lean and mean on other systems. No muddy junk Underwater tweeter like Quested, Focal Alu-mag, KRK Rokit Kevlar? Make it normal, clean up artifacts and it will be normal to good bright on many other systems. Searing top end like Dynaudio, PMC, Focal Beryllium, JBL horns? Clean up that top end! Monitor is a highly limited, low headroom, dsp or way too complex electronic crossover piece of shit like a Neumann or Genelec coax or small JBLs? Well they’re not very reactive so use the need to have more drastic eq moves to your benefit! Don’t cut 2 db! Get a 550 type eq and turn down 500 something hertz all the way! Cut 150-200 hz like crazy! Boost high end until you artifact and then turn it down! Have mega aggressive two bus compressors because you can’t hear the transients anyway so you’re mixing into something that works! In your face sound like Yamaha, small KRKs, or ATC SL? Have depth cues or fx sends and it will be some spacious hifi shit on some laid back hifi rig.
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Post by svart on Jul 25, 2023 13:12:32 GMT -6
I ask this as I believe no one has perfect monitors where the response is totally flat or full of detail. Q: Knowing the flaws of your monitors, such as being a bit mid forward or relaxed/scooped, how do you mix with these flaws in mind; how do you get around it? Let's say with mid forward monitors that serve you well with detail for days, but has a slight MF honk. What do you do to arrive at the place where you feel the tonality is on point. Perhaps it is vise versa? And nobody will. A perfect anechoic chamber would be necessary to even start "measuring". Even the most elaborate and expensive correction software is still limited by physics of the speakers themselves, then the room, then the ears, etc. The best we can hope for is *translation*... Does your mix sound the same on any system you listen to? Only a deep analysis would tell you why it doesn't. Most of the time the analysis will tell you that the choice of speaker is probably the most important aspect of the translation. It is literally the interface between the mediums of electricity and air. It's as much of a change in the signal as going from digital to analog is, and perhaps even more important! Speakers are a strange beast though. Many folks won't bat an eye at upgrading expensive converters many times over the years but won't change their monitors once. They'll shell out 5K$ for a Carbon interface or rack of Burls but won't even consider doing the same for a set of good monitors. However, it takes being willing to sit back and decide what the problem *really* is. Take me for example.. I always mixed too much bass into my mixes. I got a sub. I then learned what the *right* amount of bass was. Now I don't need a sub anymore. But I also mixed too much mids into my mixes. Everytime I listened to a mix, it was muddy on the bottom but the mids were congested full of stuff. I never had a lot of issues with top end except when I added too much into the mix trying to overcome the muddy bottom and congested mids. So what did I do? I realized that I needed a midrange in my monitors because two ways always put the crossover points where guitar and vocals sit in the spectrum. I needed to hear the midrange better. Paraphrasing a wise person, "the mids are where the song lives". The highs and lows can take care of themselves for the most part if the mids are balanced. And they aren't wrong. I got a set of 3-way monitors and my mixes have NEVER been better and more consistent across all other speakers. I can now mix a song and it'll translate everywhere and without second guessing anything. Sure there's still some tweaks, but if it sounds good in the studio, then it sounds good everywhere. I can't speak more highly of choosing the right speaker for your studio. If I had to do it all over again, I'd choose to buy the speakers first before everything else, including converters and mics. I chose the Neumann KH310D and I made the right choice. Not cheap, but worth every single penny regardless of what anyone else says. They work for me, every single time, no correction software needed.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 25, 2023 13:31:08 GMT -6
I ask this as I believe no one has perfect monitors where the response is totally flat or full of detail. Q: Knowing the flaws of your monitors, such as being a bit mid forward or relaxed/scooped, how do you mix with these flaws in mind; how do you get around it? Let's say with mid forward monitors that serve you well with detail for days, but has a slight MF honk. What do you do to arrive at the place where you feel the tonality is on point. Perhaps it is vise versa? Forget your idea of Flat, it just doesn’t exist flat for a speaker or a mic is a bunch of peaks and valleys and in both cases the room they interact with adds more, understanding that transducers are not linear and that response varies with angle is the first place to start, understanding power compression and phase will help you understand how to deal with your speakers. If you really really want flat speakers buy your own audio Percision do everything I stated and then hit the smoothing function, you now have a nice flat graph of your speakers response, it’s not their real response but it’s flat. If a speaker manufacturer provides a smooth graph run away, honestly I don’t look at frequencey response, look at polar plots vs freq much more informative.
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Post by jmoose on Jul 25, 2023 16:05:51 GMT -6
I ask this as I believe no one has perfect monitors where the response is totally flat or full of detail. Q: Knowing the flaws of your monitors, such as being a bit mid forward or relaxed/scooped, how do you mix with these flaws in mind; how do you get around it? Let's say with mid forward monitors that serve you well with detail for days, but has a slight MF honk. What do you do to arrive at the place where you feel the tonality is on point. Perhaps it is vise versa? I don't think about it. Ever. Not for a moment. Have found that whenever I do allow those kinds of things in my head... oh the monitors are dark so I need to push top harder, the midrange is doing this so I need to compensate with that... Soon as that happens I'm fucked. Game over. Think the only real solution is like nick8801 said - gotta learn the speakers warts & all. And then get a second pair and do the instant A/B thing. Every legit pro room on the planet has at least two sets of monitors hooked up for just that reason. I'm not a huge fan of these DSP correction things. Have had a few experiences working (as a freelancer) in various shops where like John said... it gets turned off for tracking because of latency or whatever & then gets popped in for playback which can be jarring. All that does is flip my head around... get to a point where I'm not really sure about what I'm actually hearing anymore. But I feel like when you really know a pair of speakers, which is going to require a serious investment in time... at a certain point there's a self confidence in what your hearing & doing and so things like checking mixes in the car all the time? Coming back & taking a big swing at the bottom end? That whole path disappears.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 25, 2023 16:43:48 GMT -6
I ask this as I believe no one has perfect monitors where the response is totally flat or full of detail. Q: Knowing the flaws of your monitors, such as being a bit mid forward or relaxed/scooped, how do you mix with these flaws in mind; how do you get around it? Let's say with mid forward monitors that serve you well with detail for days, but has a slight MF honk. What do you do to arrive at the place where you feel the tonality is on point. Perhaps it is vise versa? I don't think about it. Ever. Not for a moment. Have found that whenever I do allow those kinds of things in my head... oh the monitors are dark so I need to push top harder, the midrange is doing this so I need to compensate with that... Soon as that happens I'm fucked. Game over. Think the only real solution is like nick8801 said - gotta learn the speakers warts & all. And then get a second pair and do the instant A/B thing. Every legit pro room on the planet has at least two sets of monitors hooked up for just that reason. I'm not a huge fan of these DSP correction things. Have had a few experiences working (as a freelancer) in various shops where like John said... it gets turned off for tracking because of latency or whatever & then gets popped in for playback which can be jarring. All that does is flip my head around... get to a point where I'm not really sure about what I'm actually hearing anymore. But I feel like when you really know a pair of speakers, which is going to require a serious investment in time... at a certain point there's a self confidence in what your hearing & doing and so things like checking mixes in the car all the time? Coming back & taking a big swing at the bottom end? That whole path disappears. Hey Moose, Yeah the latency of some correction systems is a pain and I don’t understand it, why in the hell is a OMNIDRIVE from 1994 useable ( not as powerful) but reasonable latency and the latest and greatest room correction so slowwww? About 6 months ago I subbed a pair of Soundweb boxes for a room correction system and xover, did about 80% of what the correction system did and because of the drop in latency nobody cared that I couldn’t quite get the EQ right ( Soundweb has pretty course Freq settings) not as much phase correction but man the latency was sure lower, go figure those boxes are 3 generations old and can be had for $50 used.
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Post by Ward on Jul 25, 2023 19:13:11 GMT -6
This month, I paid the mortgages and bills mixing one country-rock record from a band half Tennessee and half Alberta Canada. Mixed everything on my Neumann 120s, and a Tannoy Sub I've had since 1991. Limitations? Yes. Perfect? Hell no Translate everywhere? Yeah Complaints? None. Didn't need anything else. Just like my mics and outboard gear, converters and software and plugins. . . I know what I'm working with and I'll bet you all do too. And just like jmoose, I never think about it, ever, not ever for a moment,
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Post by christopher on Jul 25, 2023 19:23:39 GMT -6
The thing that helped me the biggest was learning that my ears can hear as good as a measurement mic (most of the range). Better imo because I’m hearing real time phase weirdness in stereo. I’m very skeptical of those fast sweeps or IR fixes, as we perceive audio as an average in RMS. I use a 60 second 20-20k sine sweep file, and automate the fader until it’s equal loudness bottom to top. Playback with a spectral analyzer and watch the fader to tell me where the weird stuff is. Also this has proven to me the Fletcher Munson curves are averages of normal people, we as engineers have higher level of perception. So I’m happy to monitor at lower levels knowing how certain areas behave after this. It’s my poor man method, would be nice to have better tools treatment etc
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 25, 2023 19:33:19 GMT -6
This month, I paid the mortgages and bills mixing one country-rock record from a band half Tennessee and half Alberta Canada. Mixed everything on my Neumann 120s, and a Tannoy Sub I've had since 1991. Limitations? Yes. Perfect? Hell no Translate everywhere? Yeah Complaints? None. Didn't need anything else. Just like my mics and outboard gear, converters and software and plugins. . . I know what I'm working with and I'll bet you all do too. And just like jmoose, I never think about it, ever, not ever for a moment, Yup, I’ll say it again you listen to speakers, but you listen through monitors! One thing here and maybe . it’s because I spent so much time doing things other than pop but, for me personally where I really want a great monitor isn’t as much mixing but tracking. If I’m tracking I want my monitor to show me everything. Tracking is where ATC, Quested, Wilson and B&W earn their reputations because if I can catch an issue in tracking I don’t need to fix it in the mix.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 25, 2023 21:53:53 GMT -6
I ask this as I believe no one has perfect monitors where the response is totally flat or full of detail. Q: Knowing the flaws of your monitors, such as being a bit mid forward or relaxed/scooped, how do you mix with these flaws in mind; how do you get around it? Let's say with mid forward monitors that serve you well with detail for days, but has a slight MF honk. What do you do to arrive at the place where you feel the tonality is on point. Perhaps it is vise versa? I don't think about it. Ever. Not for a moment. Have found that whenever I do allow those kinds of things in my head... oh the monitors are dark so I need to push top harder, the midrange is doing this so I need to compensate with that... Soon as that happens I'm fucked. Game over. [...] But I feel like when you really know a pair of speakers, which is going to require a serious investment in time... at a certain point there's a self confidence in what your hearing & doing and so things like checking mixes in the car all the time? Coming back & taking a big swing at the bottom end? That whole path disappears. I love how you said all this, Moose. If I'm in a situation where I start thinking about what I need to do to correct for a speaker's deficiencies, it's game over. I've lost the plot insofar as what making music is about. I need to have internalized what my speakers sound like in my room to a degree that I'm just not thinking about it anymore - I'm just (hopefully) doing what sounds right.
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 25, 2023 22:42:33 GMT -6
I use Sonarworks, though it's not doing anything drastic. My real secrete weapon is Metric AB. i'm in the same boat. SW doesn't do anything drastic. SAM doesn't seem to either. Room isn't really bad at all. Monitors are both in the same place, one is mid forward, one is mid relaxed. Same room can't make speakers do different things in the same spot. Referencing through Metric AB is my lifeline for translation.
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 26, 2023 7:25:51 GMT -6
Work around it. Use it to your benefit. So many guys do not want to exploit the flaws of their good monitors that provide translation! Not every monitor is an old Genelec with limited translation from black hole crossover regions or Genelec One or Neumann KH with limited headroom, multiband limiters, and soft clippers! Forward mids? Mix vocals until they’re just audible and it will be great on another system. Scooped mids? Sit em maybe a little different? Presence crossover dip? Make the guitars present and they’ll be audible everywhere 3khz little boost like ATC SL? Clean up the ice picks. Don’t boost 3K into noisy city. Low mid thickness like Dynaudio, Proac, ATC non SL, Quested? Make it normal and it will be normal to lean and mean on other systems. No muddy junk Underwater tweeter like Quested, Focal Alu-mag, KRK Rokit Kevlar? Make it normal, clean up artifacts and it will be normal to good bright on many other systems. Searing top end like Dynaudio, PMC, Focal Beryllium, JBL horns? Clean up that top end! Monitor is a highly limited, low headroom, dsp or way too complex electronic crossover piece of shit like a Neumann or Genelec coax or small JBLs? Well they’re not very reactive so use the need to have more drastic eq moves to your benefit! Don’t cut 2 db! Get a 550 type eq and turn down 500 something hertz all the way! Cut 150-200 hz like crazy! Boost high end until you artifact and then turn it down! Have mega aggressive two bus compressors because you can’t hear the transients anyway so you’re mixing into something that works! In your face sound like Yamaha, small KRKs, or ATC SL? Have depth cues or fx sends and it will be some spacious hifi shit on some laid back hifi rig. Dan, you totally get it. I guess I just had to hear it again.
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 26, 2023 7:27:45 GMT -6
Used to do the Sonarworks thing but stopped recently. I never really liked the volume difference it caused and I’ve just gotten used to my speakers ATC SCM12’s. They can be slightly bloomy in the low mids (warm sounding), but I just work with it. I think if you stick with your monitors for long enough, as long as your room is good, you’ll be fine with whatever you enjoy working on. I hear you. Makes sense.
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 26, 2023 7:30:59 GMT -6
I would highly encourage the Trinnov for every studio. Especially since it’s a little more economical now. I recently went back and forth with sonorworks again just to see if I could live without it…and I can’t. I bypass when I’m playing electric, because I’m listening through the monitors, so I’ll occasionally forget to flip it back on. So I’ll start mixing and think - “damn…that kick is boomy, where’s the bass…or that midrange is bright as hell etc…” then I realize the Trinnov is bypassed. What is the entry lvel trinnov solution? For some reason, I have a hard time understanding their products.
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Post by niklas1073 on Jul 26, 2023 7:42:53 GMT -6
I suppose all of the above as there are many ways around it. but as ericn said, there are no flat monitors and on top of that a billion of variables in your room and your ears. I was thinking alot bout DSP solutions a while back but didn't go all the way there at the end of the day. I did as I've done with my headphones, found a set of monitors I can understand, which makes sense in my room and I can hear what I need to hear. Then I listen to music in general until i understand what it should sound like in this environment and mix accordingly. I guess then it doesn't really matter how they are voiced as long as it is in ball ball park of not fatiguing your ears and gives you an close enough of honest idea about what's going on there.
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Post by nick8801 on Jul 26, 2023 11:44:34 GMT -6
Another thing to think about is getting monitors that fit your room. No sense throwing a huge 3 way set in a tiny mix room. No matter how good the speakers are, they’re going to fight the room. I had a big pair of Eve’s for years that sounded super impressive but I couldn’t mix on them to save my life unless they were turned way down. Even then, I wasn’t really getting those drivers going at that volume. Some people might look at the smaller available options as a sacrifice, but if they cause less issues with room interaction, then you’re already ahead of the game. That’s kind of what my ATC’s do for me. Bought a small sub to test out extreme low end when I need it, but it’s just barely on. I also have a mono Auratone that I check levels on as well. Point is, don’t underestimate smaller speakers!
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Post by srb on Jul 26, 2023 13:31:37 GMT -6
In my experience, having reference tracks, that you know very well (having listened to them on multiple systems) are indispensable. You know what you know, and from that you make discernments.
I've been through several sets of monitors over the last 20+ years. Every time I acquire a new set, I invariably use mixes I've done to see how they translate on the new boxes. You most likely know your own mix work better than your other reference tracks. By the time you're 'finished' you know every little nook and cranny in them.
Seems the prevailing advice here is to learn the speakers in your room. Can't see how there's any reasonable way around that.
I am mostly console-based, so EQ correction software is not a reasonable, workable option for me. Room treatment and speaker placement are, though. I've also avoided buying monitors with built-in DSP, other than your basic low/high frequency tweak. And that's not really 'digital' in my case, more of a resistance/capacitance thing.
Getting comfortable and confident with your monitoring setup is the goal (obviously). You want to know when you do a mix or master that you're good to go (outside of artistic or arrangement preference tweaks) no matter where it's played.
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