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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 18, 2023 18:22:12 GMT -6
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2023 21:59:11 GMT -6
So...uh...did a bunch more testing. Changed out the one of the little modules in my cheap ass DBX patchbay just to be sure... Edit to add - I just realized my beloved Pulsar 1178 adds a little fuzz for sure. Use a cleaner, faster digital compressor. Like Kotelnikov GE or the MDWDRC2 if you have one of those or even Pro C2. I like the Oxford Dynamics a lot but it has a stronger, brighter sound.
Any FET compressor or any close to accurate emulation of one will add distortion on peaks. The voltages fed into the FET are optimized to get the lowest possible distortion at the highest possible voltage to combat noise with steady state tones. Transients will drive the FET into distortion as the circuit reduces them. So FET compressors distort when attacking vs VCA and digital ones. You'll always get that zip on peaks in addition to however the whole circuit distorts, e.g. the transformers, the gain stages, the rectification, and the gain reduction envelope applied to the signal.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 18, 2023 22:14:33 GMT -6
So...uh...did a bunch more testing. Changed out the one of the little modules in my cheap ass DBX patchbay just to be sure... Edit to add - I just realized my beloved Pulsar 1178 adds a little fuzz for sure. Use a cleaner, faster digital compressor. Like Kotelnikov GE or the MDWDRC2 if you have one of those or even Pro C2. I like the Oxford Dynamics a lot but it has a stronger, brighter sound.
Any FET compressor or any close to accurate emulation of one will add distortion on peaks. The voltages fed into the FET are optimized to get the lowest possible distortion at the highest possible voltage to combat noise with steady state tones. Transients will drive the FET into distortion as the circuit reduces them. So FET compressors distort when attacking vs VCA and digital ones. You'll always get that zip on peaks in addition to however the whole circuit distorts, e.g. the transformers, the gain stages, the rectification, and the gain reduction envelope applied to the signal.
Makes sense. I've gotten to know that sound of 1176's and use it to my advantage, but I recently had a vocal that just became too edgy/harsh with distortion from the UAD Blue Stripe. I went OTB with Wes Audio Mimas and while some of those characteristics were still there(it's still an 1176 mostly) it was better at maintaining the presence with a little less edge. I bet Kotelnikov/Pro-C would have done fine but I still wanted some of that "thing". This seems to confirm what I'm hearing. I just don't know anything about the design. |
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Post by rowmat on Jul 18, 2023 22:39:03 GMT -6
Hardy preamps are really wonderful...they work for everything in my experience. I think having a transformer really helps with vocals...GML...Benchmark...Millennia are all very fast but I find I like my Hardys more for vocals. I've always been interested in trying on of Jim's preamps. I've always been curious in the Radial Twin Servo preamp but never heard one...not sure if they are using 990 op-amps or not. Another option would be the Seventh Circle Audio J99, which is the Jensen Twin Servo circuit, and the T15, which is very similar to the Millennia. Seventh Circle Audio are now producing 500 Series modules including the J99 which is basically the Jensen Twin Servo circuit. www.seventhcircleaudio.com/product-page/sca-j99-500-series-microphone-preamp-moduleI have several of the original (Classic) proprietary SCA J99 modules which use their own form factor and high voltage rail power supply rack. The original SCA modules run off +24/-24 supply rails and have a ton of headroom. Looking at the 500 Series it appears to have a DC-DC converter which boosts the +15v/-15v rails to +24v/-24v. If I had to pick just one out of all the pres I’ve owned/used it would be the SCA J99. They have clarity without ever being clinical and are big, open, 3D and very quiet. Although it doesn’t use Jensen transformers the J99’s use the same Lundahl LL1538 input transformer (albeit the higher headroom XL version) as those in the original Focusrite console along with a high nickel Cinemag OP transformer. The LL1538 (XL) is very highly regarded micpre transformer. Also the Cinemag shouldn’t be far removed specification wise from the original Jensen output transformer having a nickel core with high headroom. I’m using Sonic Imagery 990 opamps in mine (which are excellent) as I couldn’t get the Hardy versions for love or money at the time when I built the pres. www.sonicimagerylabs.com/products/Model990Enh-Ticha.htmlThe J99’s absolutely excel on vocals and acoustic instruments but are great on anything. Out of my cold dead hands… |
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Post by gmichael on Jul 18, 2023 23:32:32 GMT -6
As far as headroom goes, the newish 2 channel preamp from Neumann has ridiculous headroom is are amazingly clean. I scoffed at them until I got to use them and now I want a pair of those too. Everyone's version of clean is slightly different, but Neumann's version of clean means eating off the floor clean in a very musical sense.
The headphone amp is cool but I barely used that portion of the strip.
Built like a Neumann and sounds the kippers knickers without sounding clinical ever.
The OP mentioned flogging a 1073 which contrary to many standing opinions, I completely understand if it was only for non pop/dance/rock vocals. To me, the 8801 is the top tier Neve for a wider variety of vocalists. Especially if pop or rock is not your thing.
8801 has boatloads of headroom to boot and it's subtle refined saturation is much more controllable depending on the mic. It'll mank up with the best of them but I've never heard as refined saturation as the 8801 in a AIO channel strip.
Probably the single best complete channel strip on the market still.
All the boutique garage built esoteric stuff falls well short of what the 8801 channel strip has to offer, ime.
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Post by paulcheeba on Jul 18, 2023 23:42:01 GMT -6
I love my Forssell SMP 2. Pure beauty if you can find one.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 19, 2023 0:23:43 GMT -6
One stunning mic pre that has stunning clarity and yet is still really beautiful and musical.
Massive headroom, ultra low distortion and is still a tube pre is the Thermionic Earlybird 2.2/
I'd absolutely love one, their just so darn expensive.
But honestly, imho mic pre's for sheer clarity, low distortion and musicality don;t get better than the Earlybird.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 19, 2023 0:26:08 GMT -6
I love my Forssell SMP 2. Pure beauty if you can find one. The tube side of my Millennia STT-1 is basically a Forsell SMP2 (Fred designed it for Millennia) Still, if I could afford it imho the Thermionic Earlybird is another step higher. Luckily my vocals sound best on the humble and somewhat hairy Coil CA-70s :-) Which you alerted me to :-) |
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Post by chessparov on Jul 19, 2023 1:42:48 GMT -6
Define 'harmonic distortion'. A Barbershop Quartet. Singing some Social Distortion. BTW my Audiobox/UA Volt/Scarlett THIRD Gen... Are not currently for sale. Plus I still have my portable Onyx Console. That are Boteak Pre's. But might consider eventual trades. Like Plumbing, To better afford an Uber $$ Pre. Like a Trakmaster!  Chris P.S. 8801? Well just m-a-y-b-e.  |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 19, 2023 7:30:25 GMT -6
I love my Forssell SMP 2. Pure beauty if you can find one. The tube side of my Millennia STT-1 is basically a Forsell SMP2 (Fred designed it for Millennia) Still, if I could afford it imho the Thermionic Earlybird is another step higher. Luckily my vocals sound best on the humble and somewhat hairy Coil CA-70s :-) Which you alerted me to :-) I think the AEA RPQ was a Forsell design. It sounds wonderful. Makes me bummed I missed the Forsell train. |
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Post by plinker on Jul 19, 2023 7:35:33 GMT -6
The tube side of my Millennia STT-1 is basically a Forsell SMP2 (Fred designed it for Millennia) Still, if I could afford it imho the Thermionic Earlybird is another step higher. Luckily my vocals sound best on the humble and somewhat hairy Coil CA-70s :-) Which you alerted me to :-) I think the AEA RPQ was a Forsell design. It sounds wonderful. Makes me bummed I missed the Forsell train. So was the tube-based opamp approach to the preamps inside the Presonus ADL600. I still regret selling that one! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 19, 2023 8:34:42 GMT -6
The tube side of my Millennia STT-1 is basically a Forsell SMP2 (Fred designed it for Millennia) Still, if I could afford it imho the Thermionic Earlybird is another step higher. Luckily my vocals sound best on the humble and somewhat hairy Coil CA-70s :-) Which you alerted me to :-) I think the AEA RPQ was a Forsell design. It sounds wonderful. Makes me bummed I missed the Forsell train. I have an AEA RPQ 500 and you’re right it’s a Forrsell J-FET designed ribbon pre. IIRC Fred is retired now? |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 19, 2023 8:48:31 GMT -6
I think the AEA RPQ was a Forsell design. It sounds wonderful. Makes me bummed I missed the Forsell train. I have an AEA RPQ 500 and you’re right it’s a Forrsell J-FET designed ribbon pre. IIRC Fred is retired now? Apparently it sounds good on condensers too. Though I haven't tried that. Yeah, of you go to the home page for Forsell his retirement info is listed. |
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Post by ab101 on Jul 19, 2023 11:10:54 GMT -6
If you can find a Fred Forssell pre like the SMP-2, it is great. I believe the AEA pres were also designed by Fred. I have not tried Fred's 500 series version of the SMP though.
I also believe Fred is still servicing what he sold.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 19, 2023 11:56:59 GMT -6
The Gordon’s look great. Just pricey.
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Post by ab101 on Jul 19, 2023 12:15:34 GMT -6
While I love the Fred Forssell Pres, it appears that Pueblo Audio at a better price than Gordon, is aiming for similar goals as Fred Forssell.
And given that Fred's pres have to be bought used at this point, I would definitely be finding out more about Pueblo Audio, and in particular the question about headroom.
Maybe Pueblo will send a demo to you, John.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 19, 2023 12:25:33 GMT -6
How about some often overlooked budget options?
Both are chip based, both are are still well regarded in the world of remote work.
Rane MP-1 weird contractor add a pre chassis but it really outperforms the mid level Rane reputation. Has a cult following, modded some put it up there with Mill. Media.
For the price of one pre how about 8 with exceptable AES conversion? Yamaha AD8HR, the pre’s of the PM5K in a rack mount chassis. While not as fashionable as say 10 years ago it’s not like the sound has changed, the price used has dropped. These things were the work horse of the classical world.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 19, 2023 13:23:59 GMT -6
How about some often overlooked budget options? Both are chip based, both are are still well regarded in the world of remote work. Rane MP-1 weird contractor add a pre chassis but it really outperforms the mid level Rane reputation. Has a cult following, modded some put it up there with Mill. Media. For the price of one pre how about 8 with exceptable AES conversion? Yamaha AD8HR, the pre’s of the PM5K in a rack mount chassis. While not as fashionable as say 10 years ago it’s not like the sound has changed, the price used has dropped. These things were the work horse of the classical world. You know there's a brilliant chip based pre that sounds absolutely superb and in an ABX with my Millennia tube channel sounded pretty darn close, amazing for a chip based pre - it had a lovely warm tone and yet amazing detail and lot's of headroom. The DAV BG-1. Mick Hinton (of Decca fame) is a very clever designer imho. A genuine bargain considering the quality of the audio on offer. www.soundonsound.com/reviews/dav-electronics-bg1 |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2023 14:01:15 GMT -6
You know there's a brilliant chip based pre that sounds absolutely superb and in an ABX with my Millennia tube channel sounded pretty darn close, amazing for a chip based pre - it had a lovely warm tone and yet amazing detail and lot's of headroom. The DAV BG-1. Mick Hinton (of Decca fame) is a very clever designer imho. A genuine bargain considering the quality of the audio on offer. www.soundonsound.com/reviews/dav-electronics-bg1That's pretty cool, they're sold at KMR for not a lot. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 19, 2023 16:27:23 GMT -6
How about some often overlooked budget options? Both are chip based, both are are still well regarded in the world of remote work. Rane MP-1 weird contractor add a pre chassis but it really outperforms the mid level Rane reputation. Has a cult following, modded some put it up there with Mill. Media. For the price of one pre how about 8 with exceptable AES conversion? Yamaha AD8HR, the pre’s of the PM5K in a rack mount chassis. While not as fashionable as say 10 years ago it’s not like the sound has changed, the price used has dropped. These things were the work horse of the classical world. You know there's a brilliant chip based pre that sounds absolutely superb and in an ABX with my Millennia tube channel sounded pretty darn close, amazing for a chip based pre - it had a lovely warm tone and yet amazing detail and lot's of headroom. The DAV BG-1. Mick Hinton (of Decca fame) is a very clever designer imho. A genuine bargain considering the quality of the audio on offer. www.soundonsound.com/reviews/dav-electronics-bg1With their crappy US distribution, I always forget the DAV, an excellent clean pre at a decent price! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 19, 2023 19:39:54 GMT -6
While I love the Fred Forssell Pres, it appears that Pueblo Audio at a better price than Gordon, is aiming for similar goals as Fred Forssell. And given that Fred's pres have to be bought used at this point, I would definitely be finding out more about Pueblo Audio, and in particular the question about headroom. Maybe Pueblo will send a demo to you, John. I’ve asked before but I think they only make to order. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 19, 2023 19:41:06 GMT -6
Yeah I remember reading a lot about the DAV.
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Post by paulcheeba on Jul 19, 2023 21:19:24 GMT -6
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Post by jampa on Jul 19, 2023 23:05:22 GMT -6
Buzz Audio MA 2.2 quite nice
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Post by lowlou on Jul 20, 2023 8:34:23 GMT -6
The Fearn preamp, it sounds musical when hit hard. It handles anything IME.
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