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Post by theshea on Jul 8, 2023 6:04:19 GMT -6
#1: are you starting with a chorus/refrain?
i used to start from the intro and work my way through a mix til the end until i started mixing the refrain first. much better.
#2: do you mix in sections?
i mean totally new mixes per refrain, verse, bridge. this is something i incorporated lately. once finished the fader balance for say the refrain i go to a verse and with level automation on i start a completely new fader balance for the verse. than same for the bridge. sounds interesting but doesn‘t work all the time.
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Post by phdamage on Jul 8, 2023 6:39:44 GMT -6
Yep. I always start a mix at the loudest part - or thereabouts.
I might be an anomaly here but I usually keep an entire album in a single project. Most of my productions are fairly consistent in terms of instrumentation/recording, so it just makes more sense for me to work that way. I find I get a much more consistent and cohesive result. I like having the other songs/sections there for reference as well. And if I make a slight change to the snare/guitar tone that is an improvement, I don’t want to open up another 10 files to change it for the other songs.
If a section or song really strays, I can always save that as a different project and do what needs doing there. I’ve only ever really had to do that when there are a ton of VIs or something on an already dense mix.
I do sometimes injerit projects that are one file per song and it makes me a bit crazy with all the back and forth.
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Post by theshea on Jul 8, 2023 6:44:22 GMT -6
couldn‘t do a whole album in one project. too much automation madness and track multings :-) even if the snare is recorded always the same, the dynamics of different songs are not the same so it wouldn‘t work for me to have a snare track with a compressor and a eq for like 10 songs in one project. i imagine a nightmare. but if it works for you its all good.
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Post by honkeur on Jul 8, 2023 8:01:04 GMT -6
Agree with phdamage’s comment: it’s best to start the mix with the loudest, most intense part of the song. This leads to better dynamics overall.
In a way, it’s letting the compressors/limiters “tell a story”. At the beginning, the compressors are saying “don’t mind us, we are just gently keeping things tidy”…but at the climax, they are saying “WAAAAAA check us out! listen to us struggle to keep this beast in control!”
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 8, 2023 9:12:12 GMT -6
I don’t really even think about it. I usually think about starting with drums, bass then acoustic et al. I guess I do pull it over to where they’re really hitting/doing something…
Then I’ll take a look at the whole thing and adjust like vocals in verses, pull eg down etc.
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Post by notneeson on Jul 8, 2023 9:52:16 GMT -6
I don’t really even think about it. I usually think about starting with drums, bass then acoustic et al. I guess I do pull it over to where they’re really hitting/doing something… Then I’ll take a look at the whole thing and adjust like vocals in verses, pull eg down etc. Same. I dive in wherever. Very often starting to get the drums to come into focus first and build it up. Transition stuff, like verse to chorus differences, often happens late in the game. These days I use clip gain more than automation, but to the same end. |
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Post by theshea on Jul 8, 2023 10:12:53 GMT -6
I don’t really even think about it. I usually think about starting with drums, bass then acoustic et al. I guess I do pull it over to where they’re really hitting/doing something… Then I’ll take a look at the whole thing and adjust like vocals in verses, pull eg down etc. thats what i used to do all the time, but i am on holiday so i have time to think about my workflow. i‘d like to be more systematic and less chaotic when mixing. gotta save time somewhere. i will still start with drums and than bass as you do, but want to do it in the most important part of the song. and when my ears are fresh. and the refrain is the star of the song. gonna give him the 5 star treatment ;-) |
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Post by theshea on Jul 8, 2023 10:13:39 GMT -6
Agree with phdamage’s comment: it’s best to start the mix with the loudest, most intense part of the song. This leads to better dynamics overall. In a way, it’s letting the compressors/limiters “tell a story”. At the beginning, the compressors are saying “don’t mind us, we are just gently keeping things tidy”…but at the climax, they are saying “WAAAAAA check us out! listen to us struggle to keep this beast in control!” very good point about the compressor. maybe thats gonna help me find a good mixbus comp setting earlier in the mix. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 8, 2023 10:17:02 GMT -6
Simple answer? No and no. To each his own though.
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Post by robo on Jul 8, 2023 11:51:57 GMT -6
I always try and at least start in the loudest section, get my static fader balances and tones there so I don’t run out of headroom later. It’s also a good reminder to work out any arrangement problems right off the bat, because it’ll usually be where things are competing the most.
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Post by christopher on Jul 8, 2023 13:16:49 GMT -6
I kinda realized for the past 15 years pop music has been kick snare vocal, that’s an easy way to start. First make the vocal sound as amazing as possible start to finish. Like mastered ready for release style. Then put the gated kick in, add some early reflections and work to make it just right. Snare same thing. Get the bass wedged in there. Next fit the midrange stuff wherever you can, so that it’s big, balanced and wide. Then everything else can be ornaments. Not that this style is my favorite- I like older styles.. it’s not hard to do it this way though. And it’s fun in its own way. (Starting with the loudest parts reminds me of older ways.. get the instruments and band as one.. I usually like it. Hopefully it’s get common again)
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Post by theshea on Jul 8, 2023 13:29:16 GMT -6
I kinda realized for the past 15 years pop music has been kick snare vocal, that’s an easy way to start. First make the vocal sound as amazing as possible start to finish. Like mastered ready for release style. Then put the gated kick in, add some early reflections and work to make it just right. Snare same thing. Get the bass wedged in there. Next fit the midrange stuff wherever you can, so that it’s big, balanced and wide. Then everything else can be ornaments. Not that this style is my favorite- I like older styles.. it’s not hard to do it this way though. And it’s fun in its own way not my style as well and if i should ever have to mix like that … well, i would rather take mix ready samples, put AI all over it and call it a day! haha! |
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 8, 2023 14:01:45 GMT -6
I don’t really even think about it. I usually think about starting with drums, bass then acoustic et al. I guess I do pull it over to where they’re really hitting/doing something… Then I’ll take a look at the whole thing and adjust like vocals in verses, pull eg down etc. Same. I dive in wherever. Very often starting to get the drums to come into focus first and build it up. Transition stuff, like verse to chorus differences, often happens late in the game. These days I use clip gain more than automation, but to the same end. Me too. I usually just pick a section that feels most inspiring to me, get the drums hitting, and then do everything else in whatever order feels good at the moment. Of course, it usually ends up being a louder section first, but not always. |
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Post by christophert on Jul 8, 2023 14:39:11 GMT -6
I just jump around all over the place, only stay on any particular section for a few minutes when the mix is getting close to finished - keep my excitement happening.
I find a few cornerstone songs and mix those first so I have an overall direction for the album.
Staying on and only mixing a chorus would drive me to boredom. The last thing I want is to be bored.
I need to keep my inspiration as the most important thing adhere to.
Jumping around to various parts of a song, and varying instruments keeps me fresh - and I get results quicker.
I also don't like to have any formula to follow.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 8, 2023 17:45:55 GMT -6
Simple answer? No and no. To each his own though. I shall counter with a complex answer: it depends 😜 To keep it short and sweet what ever works in the moment or I have an idea about on first listen, but from the tape days and to keep it simple every track review where faders sort of find a starting point begins at the beginning |
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Post by drbill on Jul 8, 2023 22:11:20 GMT -6
Simple answer? No and no. To each his own though. I shall counter with a complex answer: it depends 😜 To keep it short and sweet what ever works in the moment or I have an idea about on first listen, but from the tape days and to keep it simple every track review where faders sort of find a starting point begins at the beginning When you're mixing a band live, do you start at the chorus....or the bridge??  Do you chop em up in sections, re-set your faders and then splice em back together? At some point, it's about the flow of the music, right? I like to get a FLOW going. It's all about the rise and fall, the crescendo, the breakdown, etc.. Mixing in pieces defeats that vibe for me. I know very successful engineers/producers who do it though. I've had dozens - maybe over a hundred, I dunno - pieces of 1/4" tape taped all over the walls, on chairs, out in the hallway, etc. - all waiting to spliced back together. All so the mix could be reset, and changed up between sections. It's INFINITELY easier to do it now with non-destructive edits and crossfades in a DAW. To me., that kind of thing is the anthesis of getting a musical flow. I get it. But not my thing. |
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Post by theshea on Jul 9, 2023 0:27:18 GMT -6
I shall counter with a complex answer: it depends 😜 To keep it short and sweet what ever works in the moment or I have an idea about on first listen, but from the tape days and to keep it simple every track review where faders sort of find a starting point begins at the beginning When you're mixing a band live, do you start at the chorus....or the bridge?? Do you chop em up in sections, re-set your faders and then splice em back together? At some point, it's about the flow of the music, right? I like to get a FLOW going. It's all about the rise and fall, the crescendo, the breakdown, etc.. Mixing in pieces defeats that vibe for me. I know very successful engineers/producers who do it though. I've had dozens - maybe over a hundred, I dunno - pieces of 1/4" tape taped all over the walls, on chairs, out in the hallway, etc. - all waiting to spliced back together. All so the mix could be reset, and changed up between sections. It's INFINITELY easier to do it now with non-destructive edits and crossfades in a DAW. To me., that kind of thing is the anthesis of getting a musical flow. I get it. But not my thing. i am with you when you say its about how it flows but its not live mixing. its a record. boundaries should be reached and crossed to create something „special“. in the past i always tried to do it with automation. not just volume automation, effects also. now i‘d like to experiment some more and see if it works for me by mixing in sections. maybe i can create even more flow and rise with it. in my vision i want to get my mixes more interesting. nice to hear all these different approaches - anything goes! |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 9, 2023 1:13:30 GMT -6
For me.
I start with a faders only mix. No paning. No FX. Nothing …. just faders.
It the mix/ song doesn’t sound fantastic at this initial point - I panic because something has gone badly wrong earlier on in the creative process!
If it does sound great with faders only, really great. Then the mission is to improve the mix and it’s not a given that’s what will happen, so I’m always conscious of keeping that vibe and tone and purity of the faders only mix when the soul and vibe of the song is raw and direct.
When I get the panning, EQ, comp, fx and hardware stereo bus processing spot on I’ve hopefully achieved the best with the piece.
I’m never afraid to start again if I paint myself into a corner.
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Post by theshea on Jul 9, 2023 1:41:00 GMT -6
… and simple question #3:
when do you typically insert your mixbus compressor?
me personally after the first quick fader raw mix. and i than mute all but the drums and set the compressor to the drums. than i bring n the music and vocals. its far easier to me this way setting the knobs when i only hear the drums.
and than … i guess like you all do, i constantly check and refine the threshold as the mix progresses.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2023 3:05:58 GMT -6
I insert the mixbus compressor ASAP. This lets you mix into it from the get go.
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Post by sean on Jul 9, 2023 8:02:52 GMT -6
#1: No…once everything is organized and I’m familiar with the arrangement/instrumentation I start from the beginning
#2: No…but sometimes what helps me is if let’s say an acoustic guitar is very delicate in the intro and then is strumming in the verses and choruses and than takes a solo and then is back to picking at the outro I may split that into three different tracks so they can be EQ’d or whatever needs to happen separately. Also, it’s important to remember in a DAW everything can be automated so if there’s a setting that works for part of a song but not another, you don’t have to settle for something that’s part of the time…just automate it. Be it a threshold or an attack time of a EQ boost or cut…it can all be automated
#3: I usually insert the bus compressor once I have a decent static mix and know what’s going on and work into it. I also like to have an instance of EQ last on the mix buss, usually FabFilter, so while I’m working I can just grab a band a sweep around and if I go “oh it sounds nice when I boost the top end” I can find what instruments are benefiting from that and then do that on those tracks instead of having that EQ on the mix buss. The spectral analyzer and being able to solo listen the EQ band can be helpful. I do, however, find myself occasionally using something like Curve Bender to towards the end of a mix before the mix buss compressor (usually The Glue with an attack time of 10ms or 30ms and the fastest release time) and I might do a .5dB cut between 300-500Hz…sometimes a 50Hz boost, and sometimes a 12K shelf boost…again all .5dB. Maag EQ4 40Hz air band sometimes is the ticket…and sometime it’s 160Hz or 650Hz cut (again .5dB) can help. If I need to more than .5dB of EQ on the mix buss I go back into the track and find the problem because if you start doing more or less something is probably going to be effected negatively (something gets too thin…sibilance…harshness)
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Post by drbill on Jul 9, 2023 9:21:32 GMT -6
Thanks. I'm aware the discussion was about album mixes. I used a live mix to make a point. For me, it's about the arrangement and the music. If those are right, starting at the top and mixing down is the best way - let the arrangement unfold. If the arrangement has problems, that's when I see people starting in the middle to get it right, then going back and fixing other stuff. That's a very unmusical way of working for me - and that's where editing / arranging / re-recording decisions should come into play - not mix tricks. Re: Mix compression. If I use one - only about 10% of the time during mixing - it goes on right out of the gate. Or I should say that once I have basic levels it goes on. Very, very rarely at the end - but it has happened.... I rely heavily on individual track and buss compression though. Mix compression is only used to "get that heavily smacked sound". And that happens on occasion. Otherwise it happens during mastering for me. But even there - I generally don't need a lot. The compression happens inside the tracks for me. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 9, 2023 20:19:03 GMT -6
For me. I start with a faders only mix. No paning. No FX. Nothing …. just faders. It the mix/ song doesn’t sound fantastic at this initial point - I panic because something has gone badly wrong earlier on in the creative process! If it does sound great with faders only, really great. Then the mission is to improve the mix and it’s not a given that’s what will happen, so I’m always conscious of keeping that vibe and tone and purity of the faders only mix when the soul and vibe of the song is raw and direct. When I get the panning, EQ, comp, fx and hardware stereo bus processing spot on I’ve hopefully achieved the best with the piece. I’m never afraid to start again if I paint myself into a corner. Yea. I had a mentor early on say that a mix should come together really quick with faders - if it's hard or doesn't happen quickly then something is wrong. After 15 years I'd say that rings true most the time. So many tracks I work on just have not been thought out well. I constantly deal with being sent great references and then a load of tracks that prevents getting anywhere close to the refs for obvious(to me) reasons. I guess that's just par for the course in this work. |
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Post by theshea on Jul 10, 2023 1:22:00 GMT -6
For me. I start with a faders only mix. No paning. No FX. Nothing …. just faders. It the mix/ song doesn’t sound fantastic at this initial point - I panic because something has gone badly wrong earlier on in the creative process! If it does sound great with faders only, really great. Then the mission is to improve the mix and it’s not a given that’s what will happen, so I’m always conscious of keeping that vibe and tone and purity of the faders only mix when the soul and vibe of the song is raw and direct. When I get the panning, EQ, comp, fx and hardware stereo bus processing spot on I’ve hopefully achieved the best with the piece. I’m never afraid to start again if I paint myself into a corner. Yea. I had a mentor early on say that a mix should come together really quick with faders - if it's hard or doesn't happen quickly then something is wrong. After 15 years I'd say that rings true most the time. So many tracks I work on just have not been thought out well. I constantly deal with being sent great references and then a load of tracks that prevents getting anywhere close to the refs for obvious(to me) reasons. I guess that's just par for the course in this work. thanks to the vast homerecording/i-am-a-producer-too market, me included! :-) i am getting better but listening back to some old recordings … mixing them was hard! eq‘s full of notches! |
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Post by drumsound on Jul 10, 2023 9:30:56 GMT -6
I mostly mix what I've trackied and produced. So, I'm usually pretty familiar with what's there. I start with everything up and at the beginning. I work on balance, often doing a lot of clip gain stuff before working with the faders. There are a couple of setup things that happen, like getting a drum parallel aux going on, sometimes a couple of standard aux things like a reverb and delay, if I know I'll be wanting them. I hit play and just get to work. I kind of bounce around tracks, because I'm a firm believer that everything effects everything else. So, I might have dialed in something cool on the BD, then I'll need to adjust the vocal and the bass to that etc... … and simple question #3: when do you typically insert your mixbus compressor? me personally after the first quick fader raw mix. and i than mute all but the drums and set the compressor to the drums. than i bring n the music and vocals. its far easier to me this way setting the knobs when i only hear the drums. and than … i guess like you all do, i constantly check and refine the threshold as the mix progresses. I mix INTO the mix bus comp. I added a mix bux EQ a while back and that starts in bypass and gets tweaked a little while into the mis. |
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