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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 29, 2023 13:02:35 GMT -6
After doing those few recordings from the AD Conversion thread, I think I'm kinda realizing - "why do I think I need compression on the way in?" If I want, I can use the Apollo comps for monitoring or print it with it as well. I've been staying ITB for the last couple years, so I very rarely mixed with any HW. The occasional print to go through a 2 bus comp...
I honestly kind've think I like the tone of the vocal better without a big "distortion" box behind it. In the past, when I've had lesser mics or AD or DA, etc, I feel like I needed something to add a little heft...but lately, I've just been thinking I prefer the sound without comp. I realize I'd still be compressing in the mix, but plugs aren't going to leave as big a sonic imprint. Now - it's going to be hard on my ego to have a big hole in the rack...but do ya really need it?
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Post by ragan on Jun 29, 2023 13:49:51 GMT -6
I pretty much always track without compression. I like to worry about the take first, then worry about the compression after. Once I have the take, I print through a hardware insert for EQ and comp. I like the sound of hardware comps better so it’s not a matter of ITB vs OTB, just a matter of when to print it. I also always like to have the raw capture in case I wanna go back and change something.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 29, 2023 14:07:52 GMT -6
I do both. If I’m in my home studio, I know the gear well enough that most times I’ll use compression on the way in. If I’m freelancing in an outside room I’ll mult the vocal and run one track dry and another through whatever fancy tube compressor I have at my disposal (Retro 176, Drip Fairchild etc). In either situation I’ll end up compressing again during the mix, and mostly with HW.
My main goal is to track sounds as close to how I want them to sound in the mix as possible…without going overboard. It’s taken a lot of experience to get it right, compressing on the way in while still giving your self room on the mix to change things as needed. And I’ve screwed myself a few times, but that’s why I mult the vocal, so I have a clean backup.
I should also note that sometimes the gear my cause technical problems you don’t hear until later. Like distortion or clipping or some weird momentary RFI that fucks up one word of the perfect take etc etc. I’d love to pretend that i have golden ears but truth is, when I’m 6 hours into tracking, and there are people talking in the control room, and someone is taking lunch orders, and I’m evaluating 16 tracks of audio for a million details…yeah, I miss stuff…all the time. I am human. As I’ve gotten better the “mistakes” have gotten better too, as in the mistakes are more musical and less noticeable than before if that makes sense.
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Post by jaba on Jun 29, 2023 14:09:56 GMT -6
I almost always do if I have a nice compressor on hand and pretty never regret it. I like nudging each part towards the finish line at each step.
When mixing I like heading in a direction fairly early on instead of starting with untouched tracks. I've done it, and it's fine but usually begin a mix by getting a solid balance with just faders and find it's easier when the tracks have had a touch of compression and EQ (if needed) by that point.
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Post by svart on Jun 29, 2023 14:24:32 GMT -6
I'm doing the opposite. I used to be FIRMLY opposed to compressing vox on the way in. I screwed it up once and swore it off forever.
Then many years later I was running out of hardware during mixdowns so I decided to give it a shot again. Best vocals I had done up to that point.. So now I'm back to doing it on the way in.
I'm not shy about it either. Typically doing about 15dB GR on the loudest sections.
Hardware 1176 bluestripe Rev A.
Even now I'll monitor my tracks through whatever plugins I usually use during recording as well. Lets me hear as close to the final product as possible.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 29, 2023 14:33:10 GMT -6
IME, there is definitely a difference between singing into a mic, hitting the pre, then the pre hitting the compressor, and the compressed signal hitting the AD and getting printed
vs line level post mixing or plugins and imho you get way more action out of plugins anyway if the signal has some "sauce" pre baked in.
Irrespective of whether you monitor the chain or not.
Once you're into monitoring the chain and interacting with it then it's truly a whole different ball game.
So if I'm making song sketches or demos then I also don't bother with compression or even fancy mics and pres.
But for my "keeper" recordings I'll always track vocals with a great compressor - in my case a Retro STA Level (thanks to JK) or a Thermionic Phoenix MP.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 29, 2023 14:41:00 GMT -6
Most Olde Skool great AE's would compress on the way in. Ever try an Atomic Squeezebox? Like the Fmr. Audio RNC on steroids. But Suoer Nice is still... nice.  Chris |
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 29, 2023 14:45:56 GMT -6
Curious if you might try a Spectra 1964 c610 John... I have one on the way, and everything I've read is they're awesome tracking/mixing limiters, and can be extremely transparent. Actually can give more headroom going into your DAW. Give Bill a call, he'll talk your ear off, in a good way.
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Post by plinker on Jun 29, 2023 15:01:05 GMT -6
Some of the "with compressor" responses in this thread are making me reconsider my "without compressor" approach.
We speak about the mic/preamp combination as being important. Why not consider the entire mid/preamp/compressor chain instead. If you know the sound you want, and you know which compressor contributes to it, why not audition mics, then track, with the compressor in-line??
I've got some experimenting to do...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 15:01:53 GMT -6
The real question is do you want to hear it compressed well in your monitoring path with zero digital latency as you sing it?
You can always use a cleaner, easy to set modern hardware compressor if you want to hear it compressed on the way in your monitoring path.
Good digital compressors, even those on the UAD and HDX DSP platforms, must add greater latency than your round trip latency. There's no way around it because of the oversampling and downsampling's anti alias filters or the lookahead and FIR filters used in more bizarre but sometimes quite effective distortion prevention and reduction methods.
Better interfaces now have a much higher dynamic range than tape so you don't really lose much by not compressing on the way in to maximize headroom and using a hardware insert later. You only get save another trip through the DA and AD with phase shift on the AD anti alias filter and maybe a DC filter on the DA if the interface is not DC coupled assuming the DA anti-alias filter is competently designed. Many are not and have well over a thousand degrees of phase shift if you are cursed with one of those.
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Post by niklas1073 on Jun 29, 2023 15:10:55 GMT -6
I am also mixing exclusively itb and printing thru a mixbus hw comp just as you seem to do johnkenn. There was a time when I was tracking without a compressor. But since I came to realize the comp is one of the very defining factors of the sound I always track with the comp and commit to the sound. Ive noticed that this workflow makes a huge difference in the mixing process as the sound is already pretty much made and committed to before the a/d. I do also feel the outcome is a better product with the first compression on the pre conversion side. This way ive noticed i never get the urge to take a trip outside the box to fetch the sound.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 15:16:50 GMT -6
I do both. If I’m in my home studio, I know the gear well enough that most times I’ll use compression on the way in. If I’m freelancing in an outside room I’ll mult the vocal and run one track dry and another through whatever fancy tube compressor I have at my disposal (Retro 176, Drip Fairchild etc). In either situation I’ll end up compressing again during the mix, and mostly with HW. My main goal is to track sounds as close to how I want them to sound in the mix as possible…without going overboard. It’s taken a lot of experience to get it right, compressing on the way in while still giving your self room on the mix to change things as needed. And I’ve screwed myself a few times, but that’s why I mult the vocal, so I have a clean backup. I should also note that sometimes the gear my cause technical problems you don’t hear until later. Like distortion or clipping or some weird momentary RFI that fucks up one word of the perfect take etc etc. I’d love to pretend that i have golden ears but truth is, when I’m 6 hours into tracking, and there are people talking in the control room, and someone is taking lunch orders, and I’m evaluating 16 tracks of audio for a million details…yeah, I miss stuff…all the time. I am human. As I’ve gotten better the “mistakes” have gotten better too, as in the mistakes are more musical and less noticeable than before if that makes sense. A poorly set 1176 or LA whatever can cook or a vocal or drum forever. The distortion will ruin it and if that's the best take that gets used, there's no way of getting around it. There are cleaner, better designed compressors now but people don't want to use them for whatever reasons because they're neither used by 3 letter mixers who distort everything nor well advertised. Also a big thing I've noticed is ground issues related to computers. There's no getting around it especially if it's over a direct-coupled interface. You better maximize noise before hitting it those setups if you can't move stuff around. Macs without the 3 pronged AC adaptors are the absolute worst things for ground issues commonly seen now. You need keep that shit away from anything recording analog audio or get the 3 pronged extension cable. Especially if you're not using transformer stuff. Transformers are useful. So many setups need the Jensen transformation isolation boxes anyway and bye bye all that stuff about dc coupling or ripping transformers out of the signal path to clean up the low end, eliminating hysteresis and improving slew rate  |
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Post by plinker on Jun 29, 2023 15:47:27 GMT -6
I do both. If I’m in my home studio, I know the gear well enough that most times I’ll use compression on the way in. If I’m freelancing in an outside room I’ll mult the vocal and run one track dry and another through whatever fancy tube compressor I have at my disposal (Retro 176, Drip Fairchild etc). In either situation I’ll end up compressing again during the mix, and mostly with HW. My main goal is to track sounds as close to how I want them to sound in the mix as possible…without going overboard. It’s taken a lot of experience to get it right, compressing on the way in while still giving your self room on the mix to change things as needed. And I’ve screwed myself a few times, but that’s why I mult the vocal, so I have a clean backup. I should also note that sometimes the gear my cause technical problems you don’t hear until later. Like distortion or clipping or some weird momentary RFI that fucks up one word of the perfect take etc etc. I’d love to pretend that i have golden ears but truth is, when I’m 6 hours into tracking, and there are people talking in the control room, and someone is taking lunch orders, and I’m evaluating 16 tracks of audio for a million details…yeah, I miss stuff…all the time. I am human. As I’ve gotten better the “mistakes” have gotten better too, as in the mistakes are more musical and less noticeable than before if that makes sense. A poorly set 1176 or LA whatever can cook or a vocal or drum forever. The distortion will ruin it and if that's the best take that gets used, there's no way of getting around it. There are cleaner, better designed compressors now but people don't want to use them for whatever reasons because they're neither used by 3 letter mixers who distort everything nor well advertised. Also a big thing I've noticed is ground issues related to computers. There's no getting around it especially if it's over a direct-coupled interface. You better maximize noise before hitting it those setups if you can't move stuff around. Macs without the 3 pronged AC adaptors are the absolute worst things for ground issues commonly seen now. You need keep that shit away from anything recording analog audio or get the 3 pronged extension cable. Especially if you're not using transformer stuff. Transformers are useful. So many setups need the Jensen transformation isolation boxes anyway and bye bye all that stuff about dc coupling or ripping transformers out of the signal path to clean up the low end, eliminating hysteresis and improving slew rate - "3 letter mixers who distort everything" -- is freaking funny! - While I believe you've experienced fewer problems with 3 pronged cables, I can't figure out why that would make a difference. The neutral prong goes to the same ground and the third prong in the plug. That third prong is there in case of overload -- which you're probably not going to get from a laptop anyway. So, really, you shouldn't see any difference in ground-related noise going from a 2-prong to a 3-prong. |
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Post by jampa on Jun 29, 2023 16:27:50 GMT -6
Generally yes without compression
Sometimes with, if the singer wants to 'sing into' the compressor action
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Post by mike on Jun 29, 2023 16:30:58 GMT -6
I typically always track without compression, and like Ragan worry about the compression after.
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Post by christophert on Jun 29, 2023 17:12:42 GMT -6
I'll only ever mildly compress if the sound of the compression is close to 100% invisible.
BG2's are excellent for this.
Vocal dynamics are a great thing to keep alive until the final mix.
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Post by notneeson on Jun 29, 2023 17:36:49 GMT -6
I go back and forth.
Most recently I’ve been using a reissue LA2A and a Tube Tech EQ and wishing I owned both.
Might not want to use them for sparse folk, but in a rock mix it’s unlikely I’ll overcook it at tracking. On this tune in question I actually ended up inserting a distressor at mix, so that’s a ton of compression, but it suited the vibe.
Also, like my second time liking a distressor out of many many attempts. 🤷♂️
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Post by drumsound on Jun 29, 2023 17:50:22 GMT -6
Today I had 2 compressors in series for most of the session.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 29, 2023 17:51:46 GMT -6
The real question is do you want to hear it compressed well in your monitoring path with zero digital latency as you sing it? You can always use a cleaner, easy to set modern hardware compressor if you want to hear it compressed on the way in your monitoring path. Good digital compressors, even those on the UAD and HDX DSP platforms, must add greater latency than your round trip latency. There's no way around it because of the oversampling and downsampling's anti alias filters or the lookahead and FIR filters used in more bizarre but sometimes quite effective distortion prevention and reduction methods. Better interfaces now have a much higher dynamic range than tape so you don't really lose much by not compressing on the way in to maximize headroom and using a hardware insert later. You only get save another trip through the DA and AD with phase shift on the AD anti alias filter and maybe a DC filter on the DA if the interface is not DC coupled assuming the DA anti-alias filter is competently designed. Many are not and have well over a thousand degrees of phase shift if you are cursed with one of those. What clean compressors do you like? |
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Post by robo on Jun 29, 2023 18:04:41 GMT -6
I’ve recorded singers where compression was a stylistic choice, as the delivery wasn’t dynamic enough for it to be really necessary. I almost always use a little, though I error on the side of caution.
I’ve recorded more singers that needed consonant peaks slapped down, or bad mic technique smoothed over. I still tend to be conservative, and save about half of the squashing for the mix.
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Post by Ward on Jun 29, 2023 18:15:46 GMT -6
I can't remember the last time I recorded without compression.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 29, 2023 18:19:36 GMT -6
We all know I’m gonna end up with another expensive ass compressor.
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Post by sean on Jun 29, 2023 18:25:03 GMT -6
Depends on the singer for me.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 29, 2023 20:32:26 GMT -6
Going through Squeezebox here. Pre is Avalon M5...
1st Clip I'm on Lead.
On el cheapo/nicely toned AKG P120 (Vincent/Kenny Bronowski BGV's)
2nd clip is where the Lead on Pre-Chorus/same song, is Vincent Ricciardi on a FLEA 49.
Kenny and I on back up Vocals.
(Not sure if Vinnie compressed first)
Kenny was on his Vintage U87.
Chris
P.S. Tony-Drums/Kenny-Guitars.
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 29, 2023 20:39:14 GMT -6
I'll only ever mildly compress if the sound of the compression is close to 100% invisible. BG2's are excellent for this. Vocal dynamics are a great thing to keep alive until the final mix. I have a BG2, and find it to be the opposite of invisible. My go-to vocal/bass compressor. |
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