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Post by bgrotto on Jun 13, 2023 10:34:35 GMT -6
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Post by notneeson on Jun 13, 2023 11:10:36 GMT -6
Iām going to zoom out much broader here and say that theoretically ābetterā often isnāt. If you are too in your head about what āshould sound goodā you can easily miss what actually does sound good. And really; Iām often in the camp where, I donāt care if it sounds good as long as it sounds cool or interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 11:29:45 GMT -6
It gets wonky fast, but aliasing in DSP is not the same type of thing as harmonic distortion created by analog circuits.Ā Analog circuits being driven into distortion generate harmonics that are inherently related to the original signal.Ā Aliasing happens when you try to turn an analog signal into a bunch of discrete sample points (ie a digital signal) but those sample points are too far apart to accurately reproduce the original signal.Ā The quantization process has to sort of 'guess' what the solutions to the sample points are, and with too much room between sample points, it makes bad guesses.Ā Or, put a better way maybe, for a given set of discrete sample points, you can have multiple frequencies that are mathematically 'correct' solutions to those sample points, when only one of them is actually part of the original signal.Ā This gives you frequency content that is not harmonically related to the original signal.Ā It's just a junky mathematical error because we don't have enough sample points and there is too much room for interpretation re: what the actual original signal is.Ā Ā I am not one who thinks that Plugin Doctor or any other type of analytical tool should be the main measuring rod for making music with audio processors.Ā But it is worth noting that DSP errors are intrinsically not the same thing as analog harmonic distortion.Ā Ā Thanks Ragan, that was great info. Ā I shouldāve been more clear, I know plugins obviously arenāt saturating/distorting like hardware š. My response was to the comment that hardware isnāt saturating. I donāt understand what that means. I get aliasing, I just donāt get the emphasis on it. For instance CLA 76 plug-in gets ragged on all the time but I like how it sounds š¤·š»āāļø My example of a 1073 wasnāt the right example for this discussion so sorry for any confusion there I was just trying to make the point that something being technically better may not in the end produce a sound thatās interesting. I see plugins get released all the time that get shot down online based off of their plug-in doctor scan before anyone even took the time to really listen to them. I really like some of the ones that get trashed and find some of the ones with the best plug-in doctor scores kind of boring. Saturation is clipping or heavily non linear gain. Most of these good boxes have higher input and output than many converters. 1176 can take +20 dbu input and output +24 and achieves its ultra fast attack time with a 50 khz sine per the pdf manual from google. Granted there might be a saturated sidechain missing some transients and feedback lag causing under and then over shoot in an 1176 that makes it sound slower but the more compact waveform is usually from a good hardware compressor detecting and stamping down the material better, not from any clipping on its part despite any audible distortion whether wanted or unwanted. Iām not even the CLA-76 can detect 50kHz (you would need to check the impulse response at 96 khz to see if thereās pre-ringing from a linear phase anti alias filter somewhere) and even if it runs at 192 khz. Some waves plugins do but donāt have effective anti aliasing filters and thereās still no way a 192 khz compressor is going to be able to stamp down effectively on brief high frequency events with that sort of attack speed. I donāt have it installed but I remember cla 76 leaving icepick transients all over the place. Fletcher equated RND to Stingās solo career years ago. When I finally heard some RND equipment I realized that he wasnāt wrong š |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 11:33:59 GMT -6
Iām going to zoom out much broader here and say that theoretically ābetterā often isnāt. If you are too in your head about what āshould sound goodā you can easily miss what actually does sound good. And really; Iām often in the camp where, I donāt care if it sounds good as long as it sounds cool or interesting. issue is functionality than sound qualitatives. Thread was poorly titled and I canāt edit it after frustration deleting first post. Most of these plugins are less functional than an Alesis 3630. I have no problem vintage warming someoneās vocals or using Vulf as a bus compressor. I used to use Blockfish a lot in the 32-bit days. Vulf Compressor is designed to be a grot box and still more flexible than the cla 76 (pretty much only makes peaks louder on minute amounts of gain reduction) or ReaComp (slow feedback rms leveler only or it becomes a pingy fuzz box). Just a better tool even if itās crunchy, dark and aliased by design. |
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Post by jampa on Jun 13, 2023 16:54:47 GMT -6
I'm not sure what you mean Dan, tubes, transformers and consoles are all routinely pushed to saturation intentionally as they sound awesome that way. Ā I push a 176, Sta Level or Bluey there all the time. Ā Even something as sweet and beautiful as the LH95 EQs have this killer saturation when you pushed into them hot(particularly on a stereo bus). Ā In regards to whatever Plug-in doctor is finding, imagine running it on a 1073 vs a modern RND. Ā The modern one would technically be the much better design but I bet you wouldn't find anyone that thought it sounded better in real world use. Ā My point is that I don't think low or zero distortion necessarily equals something being better. Ā The whole plug-in doctor/aliasing thing is a bit weird to me. Ā If you like the way it sounds I don't know why some readout or frequency plot would convince you something sucks. Ā Our ears = the ultimate plug-in doctors š It gets wonky fast, but aliasing in DSP is not the same type of thing as harmonic distortion created by analog circuits.Ā Analog circuits being driven into distortion generate harmonics that are inherently related to the original signal.Ā Aliasing happens when you try to turn an analog signal into a bunch of discrete sample points (ie a digital signal) but those sample points are too far apart to accurately reproduce the original signal.Ā The quantization process has to sort of 'guess' what the solutions to the sample points are, and with too much room between sample points, it makes bad guesses.Ā Or, put a better way maybe, for a given set of discrete sample points, you can have multiple frequencies that are mathematically 'correct' solutions to those sample points, when only one of them is actually part of the original signal.Ā This gives you frequency content that is not harmonically related to the original signal.Ā It's just a junky mathematical error because we don't have enough sample points and there is too much room for interpretation re: what the actual original signal is.Ā Ā I am not one who thinks that Plugin Doctor or any other type of analytical tool should be the main measuring rod for making music with audio processors.Ā But it is worth noting that DSP errors are intrinsically not the same thing as analog harmonic distortion.Ā Ā Does low pass filtering factor out aliased 'correct solutions' ? |
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Post by notneeson on Jun 13, 2023 19:09:13 GMT -6
Iām going to zoom out much broader here and say that theoretically ābetterā often isnāt. If you are too in your head about what āshould sound goodā you can easily miss what actually does sound good. And really; Iām often in the camp where, I donāt care if it sounds good as long as it sounds cool or interesting. issue is functionality than sound qualitatives. Thread was poorly titled and I canāt edit it after frustration deleting first post. Most of these plugins are less functional than an Alesis 3630. I have no problem vintage warming someoneās vocals or using Vulf as a bus compressor. I used to use Blockfish a lot in the 32-bit days. Vulf Compressor is designed to be a grot box and still more flexible than the cla 76 (pretty much only makes peaks louder on minute amounts of gain reduction) or ReaComp (slow feedback rms leveler only or it becomes a pingy fuzz box). Just a better tool even if itās crunchy, dark and aliased by design. I hear you, just that the thread took me in a philosophical direction. Making art is challenging to talk about. |
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Post by srb on Jun 13, 2023 20:55:14 GMT -6
Attributed to many (it turns out):
"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
Emotion is is difficult to quantify or qualify, for sure.
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Post by robo on Jun 14, 2023 9:52:43 GMT -6
A couple of relevant points:
-Aliasing can actually be good on percussive material, because inharmonic noise is inherently percussive. Remember in the 80ās lots of folks blended in white noise along with snare hits, or how adding some noise on an analog synth can make a part sit better. Iām not saying unintentional aliasing is good, but maybe you donāt need to worry about it on your drum bus the same way you might on a lead vocal.
-The ārightā compressor settings are much more musically important than a little digital hash in your audio. Sometimes you just click with a tool and you know how to work it. Remember how many amazing mixes Tchad Blake has done using terrible outdated software tools.
-I think the best practice in this digital age is to tame peaks as much as needed while recording, so you arenāt trying to force plugin comps to do something many of them arenāt good at. To my ears, there are lots of good plugin level smoothers (some of which arenāt compressors).
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