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Post by phantom on Jun 11, 2023 14:41:58 GMT -6
What should we be looking for in the test and why is it important?
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Post by sirthought on Jun 11, 2023 15:01:33 GMT -6
Your post tells us nothing, Dan. What is bad about them?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2023 16:43:24 GMT -6
This is pointless.
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Post by phantom on Jun 11, 2023 17:08:44 GMT -6
C'mon Dan, I would love to learn a thing or two.
I may be ignorant, but I do have the desire to learn.
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Post by Ward on Jun 11, 2023 18:32:25 GMT -6
Consarnit, I'm late to the party and i was looking forward TO THIS READ . . . .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 1:15:16 GMT -6
I will reiterate. The new version of Plugin Doctor now has a harmonic sweep function like Izotope RX and Acon. Read the manuals and watch Dan Worral videos if you want to know what this is. You can now quickly test plugins and DAW processes for aliasing and seeing how much of the spectrum is polluted with noise and imd. Go to the harmonic tab, hit sweep, and select 2d and you can switch between linear and exponential scale.
I spent a couple hours yesterday testing compressors I had installed because distortion in the audio path often equals crazy misbehavior. All of the plugin compressors I had that are hit or miss behavior wise had noticeable aliasing in the audio path. Heavily aliased digital compressors usually have even more heavily aliased sidechains which make the compressor do seemingly random things to the audio most of the time.
Most digital compressors still aren't taking distortion reduction seriously and are far behind most analog equipment that's not a muntzed clone for true utility. The 30 dollar plugin of the week isn't helping and isn't leading to more great tools. Digital can do many things cleaner than analog because code isn't limited by available electrical parts, allowing the programmer to greatly reduce or eliminate certain distortions. Simplified circuit models versus just making the code work tend to be "tone only" inserts that misbehave horribly beyond being slow levelers. This might be obvious but unfortunately look at the the best selling things and apologists for bad clones and crappy plugins. Nobody is buying mid-priced VCA compressors for use in live sound racks even though a lot of those are pretty good.
Only a handful of the dozens I have behaved well at 44.1 kHz, the sample rate most music recordings are still made at. Some of came out a decade or two ago too. I was disappointed in most of what I've bought over the years and many of the better ones still crap up when pushed.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2023 10:17:10 GMT -6
What you are going to find is the cleanest are probably going to be mastering digital mastering hardware ported over to your favorite plugin format BUT, in many cases your going to find that many of these have a distortion component dialed in and that the original developer found this particular distortion profile is what made them popular.
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Post by Ward on Jun 12, 2023 10:24:10 GMT -6
I appreciate your reiterating, dan. Most excellent post.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 11:25:57 GMT -6
What you are going to find is the cleanest are probably going to be mastering digital mastering hardware ported over to your favorite plugin format BUT, in many cases your going to find that many of these have a distortion component dialed in and that the original developer found this particular distortion profile is what made them popular. Weiss isn’t even close and is dirtier than what comes with modern daws if the stock plugins are set to behave mildly. Weiss can get more aggressive and not crap out like stock plugs will but it’s still 1990s code at heart with bugs and distortion that give it the driven, punchy distorted sheened sound. Same with Vulf Compressor. It’s a reverse engineered boss vinyl sim compressor with options to clean it up a bit or get even more aggressive. The distortion component is present in U-he Presswerk and Goodhertz Faraday Limiter. Turn it way down, turn on HQ, and they’re pretty clean. The powair distortion options rarely work at all and the compressor/limiter portion gets plastic and fills the spectrum with crap on greater gain reductions so it’s probably best as a leveler with a slight peak shaper or limiter atop it but I’ve abused it in the past, probably not for the better. The best stuff over a wide range of settings were the Tokyo Dawn compressors on insane and Paul Frindle’s Pro Audio DSP DSM. They don’t really crap out or grit up the spectrum and background with partials of partials. The DSM always has minute aliasing but it doesn’t get worse and Molot GE limiter is a soft clipper so having it touch non transients is a recipe for fuzzy disaster MDWDRC2 can dirty up for the auto release trigger and faster detector that’s set stock as root mean cube. It can get gritty where Kotelnikov is clean and snappy. But the main Detector is very clean when kept as at RMS. Frindle’s Oxford Dynamics and the ancient Renaissance Compressor (the updated gui sucks. 90s gui for life) are good because they were made to mitigate distortion. So they have proper lookaheads and side chains lowpassed at 2khz to mitigate aliasing. The built in limiters are dirtier, especially R Comp’s L1, which encourages you to straight up run the makeup gain into it as a crappy overshoot limiter 😬 while Oxford Dynamics just uses the faster, harder, dirtier limiter on the higher portions of the signal. The distortion options in both can get messy. The only analog emulation I had installed that wasn’t scrappy was the Glue but who wouldn’t rather have real hardware instead of an ersatz. Some stuff is cool but it doesn’t work that well on stuff that hasn’t been cooked or that went through a big boy pre and good conversion so all the piled on distorted crap jsut makes it sound worse. Some guys have good tones even DIed and others… 🤯🔫 so they need Vaseline on the camera lens and Omar Sharif.
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Post by svart on Jun 12, 2023 11:56:35 GMT -6
Compressing is mathematically the same as limiting headroom at really fast timescales. This inherently produces distortion at least partially during the cycle. If it was slow enough attack to act more like an AGC, then it would be useless as a compressor.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 12:30:35 GMT -6
Compressing is mathematically the same as limiting headroom at really fast timescales. This inherently produces distortion at least partially during the cycle. If it was slow enough attack to act more like an AGC, then it would be useless as a compressor. That’s what the smoothing filter is for 😎 Digital can get the harmonic distortion down to just the third harmonic from the rectifier from filling in the zero crossings and smoothing transitions of threshold. Then just distortion from the smoothing filter being faster than the sine frequency. Most digital compressors have or gradually become infinite distortion machines that bounce around like crazy. Most Waves emulations and stock plugins are some of the worst ever. 1 khz can produce partials in the mud range and near dc from the random behavior. modulation sidebands those are not.
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Post by viciousbliss on Jun 12, 2023 14:54:34 GMT -6
Dan, have you tried the Elysia Alpha plugin much? How about Vertigo VSC-3?
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Post by seawell on Jun 12, 2023 15:03:43 GMT -6
What you are going to find is the cleanest are probably going to be mastering digital mastering hardware ported over to your favorite plugin format BUT, in many cases your going to find that many of these have a distortion component dialed in and that the original developer found this particular distortion profile is what made them popular. I agree, I’m not sure low distortion or distortion free is what our ears like. By all means I don’t want needless junk that is a shortcoming of some plug-in coding but I think half the reason people prefer hardware vs a plug-in in a shootout is because they can saturate/distort where often a plug-in can’t.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 12, 2023 15:06:07 GMT -6
This is interesting, but mostly over my head. The Tokyo Dawn compressor was mentioned. I had it free for a year but decided not to buy it. Many people say that Logic's first compressor in their choice of six compressors is very similar to the Tokyo Dawn. Has anyone used it? I'm curious.
I always considered plug-in compressors as tone changers first. I have so many, but only like two, the Logic DBX on the 2 bus and the UAD 176 for vocals which changes tone a lot, but I like it in some cases. The other dozen compressor plug-ins I have rarely get used.
I look forward to getting hardware compressor for tracking vocals at some point.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2023 15:33:36 GMT -6
What you are going to find is the cleanest are probably going to be mastering digital mastering hardware ported over to your favorite plugin format BUT, in many cases your going to find that many of these have a distortion component dialed in and that the original developer found this particular distortion profile is what made them popular. I agree, I’m not sure low distortion or distortion free is what our ears like. By all means I don’t want needless junk that is a shortcoming of some plug-in coding but I think half the reason people prefer hardware vs a plug-in in a shootout is because they can saturate/distort where often a plug-in can’t. We have to admit we love distortion! But we also have to look at things in a very big picture kind of way and realize in the big picture, Dynamics control as we see it’s in fact controlled use of distorted dynamics to begin with ! Any signal manipulation even our choice of mics is as much about controlled use of distortion.
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Post by sirthought on Jun 12, 2023 18:41:15 GMT -6
I don't own Plugin Doctor. I'm curious how the compressors from DDMF come out.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 22:18:42 GMT -6
What you are going to find is the cleanest are probably going to be mastering digital mastering hardware ported over to your favorite plugin format BUT, in many cases your going to find that many of these have a distortion component dialed in and that the original developer found this particular distortion profile is what made them popular. I agree, I’m not sure low distortion or distortion free is what our ears like. By all means I don’t want needless junk that is a shortcoming of some plug-in coding but I think half the reason people prefer hardware vs a plug-in in a shootout is because they can saturate/distort where often a plug-in can’t. The hardware isn’t saturating. Most of it only saturates or clips well above levels it is typically used at. It just hugs and rides the audio better and this is most noticeable on transients that require faster releases to not pump down the rest of the signal with them. Emulations try to operate on an analog of the analog of the audio and mostly fall flat on their face vs the better analog and digital designs. Analog often (usually) behaves better because the sidechain signal is often (usually) cleaner. The slight distortion from their amplifiers and transformers can sometime mask some of the distortion from the gain reduction or even serve as a coat of varnish almost but this is often not the case in most modern compressors where the distortion from the gain reduction is usually higher than that from the amplifier. The analog compressors with noticeable distortion are controversial or of limited utility.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 22:27:08 GMT -6
I agree, I’m not sure low distortion or distortion free is what our ears like. By all means I don’t want needless junk that is a shortcoming of some plug-in coding but I think half the reason people prefer hardware vs a plug-in in a shootout is because they can saturate/distort where often a plug-in can’t. We have to admit we love distortion! But we also have to look at things in a very big picture kind of way and realize in the big picture, Dynamics control as we see it’s in fact controlled use of distorted dynamics to begin with ! Any signal manipulation even our choice of mics is as much about controlled use of distortion. Yes but one is much greater than the other. a soft knee threshold is usually a clipped diode that’s not even in the audio path. That’s like spilling coffee on your couch and covering it up so your date doesn’t see it. If you want to hear a diode clipper on the signal, Apogee Soft Limit and Prism Overkill are very common. If a dbx 160 over easy is spilling coffee on the couch, digging in with those is accidentally burning your house down when cooking dinner for your girl.
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Post by seawell on Jun 12, 2023 22:31:17 GMT -6
I agree, I’m not sure low distortion or distortion free is what our ears like. By all means I don’t want needless junk that is a shortcoming of some plug-in coding but I think half the reason people prefer hardware vs a plug-in in a shootout is because they can saturate/distort where often a plug-in can’t. The hardware isn’t saturating. Most of it only saturates or clips well above levels it is typically used at. It just hugs and rides the audio better and this is most noticeable on transients that require faster releases to not pump down the rest of the signal with them. Emulations try to operate on an analog of the analog of the audio and mostly fall flat on their face vs the better analog and digital designs. Analog often (usually) behaves better because the sidechain signal is often (usually) cleaner. The slight distortion from their amplifiers and transformers can sometime mask some of the distortion from the gain reduction or even serve as a coat of varnish almost but this is not the case in most modern compressors where the distortion from the gain reduction is usually higher than that from the amplifier. The analog compressors with noticeable distortion are controversial or of limited utility. I'm not sure what you mean Dan, tubes, transformers and consoles are all routinely pushed to saturation intentionally as they sound awesome that way. I push a 176, Sta Level or Bluey there all the time. Even something as sweet and beautiful as the LH95 EQs have this killer saturation when you pushed into them hot(particularly on a stereo bus). In regards to whatever Plug-in doctor is finding, imagine running it on a 1073 vs a modern RND. The modern one would technically be the much better design but I bet you wouldn't find anyone that thought it sounded better in real world use. My point is that I don't think low or zero distortion necessarily equals something being better. The whole plug-in doctor/aliasing thing is a bit weird to me. If you like the way it sounds I don't know why some readout or frequency plot would convince you something sucks. Our ears = the ultimate plug-in doctors 😁
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Post by ragan on Jun 12, 2023 23:34:33 GMT -6
The hardware isn’t saturating. Most of it only saturates or clips well above levels it is typically used at. It just hugs and rides the audio better and this is most noticeable on transients that require faster releases to not pump down the rest of the signal with them. Emulations try to operate on an analog of the analog of the audio and mostly fall flat on their face vs the better analog and digital designs. Analog often (usually) behaves better because the sidechain signal is often (usually) cleaner. The slight distortion from their amplifiers and transformers can sometime mask some of the distortion from the gain reduction or even serve as a coat of varnish almost but this is not the case in most modern compressors where the distortion from the gain reduction is usually higher than that from the amplifier. The analog compressors with noticeable distortion are controversial or of limited utility. I'm not sure what you mean Dan, tubes, transformers and consoles are all routinely pushed to saturation intentionally as they sound awesome that way. I push a 176, Sta Level or Bluey there all the time. Even something as sweet and beautiful as the LH95 EQs have this killer saturation when you pushed into them hot(particularly on a stereo bus). In regards to whatever Plug-in doctor is finding, imagine running it on a 1073 vs a modern RND. The modern one would technically be the much better design but I bet you wouldn't find anyone that thought it sounded better in real world use. My point is that I don't think low or zero distortion necessarily equals something being better. The whole plug-in doctor/aliasing thing is a bit weird to me. If you like the way it sounds I don't know why some readout or frequency plot would convince you something sucks. Our ears = the ultimate plug-in doctors 😁 It gets wonky fast, but aliasing in DSP is not the same type of thing as harmonic distortion created by analog circuits. Analog circuits being driven into distortion generate harmonics that are inherently related to the original signal. Aliasing happens when you try to turn an analog signal into a bunch of discrete sample points (ie a digital signal) but those sample points are too far apart to accurately reproduce the original signal. The quantization process has to sort of 'guess' what the solutions to the sample points are, and with too much room between sample points, it makes bad guesses. Or, put a better way maybe, for a given set of discrete sample points, you can have multiple frequencies that are mathematically 'correct' solutions to those sample points, when only one of them is actually part of the original signal. This gives you frequency content that is not harmonically related to the original signal. It's just a junky mathematical error because we don't have enough sample points and there is too much room for interpretation re: what the actual original signal is. I am not one who thinks that Plugin Doctor or any other type of analytical tool should be the main measuring rod for making music with audio processors. But it is worth noting that DSP errors are intrinsically not the same thing as analog harmonic distortion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 0:46:41 GMT -6
I'm not sure what you mean Dan, tubes, transformers and consoles are all routinely pushed to saturation intentionally as they sound awesome that way. I push a 176, Sta Level or Bluey there all the time. Even something as sweet and beautiful as the LH95 EQs have this killer saturation when you pushed into them hot(particularly on a stereo bus). In regards to whatever Plug-in doctor is finding, imagine running it on a 1073 vs a modern RND. The modern one would technically be the much better design but I bet you wouldn't find anyone that thought it sounded better in real world use. My point is that I don't think low or zero distortion necessarily equals something being better. The whole plug-in doctor/aliasing thing is a bit weird to me. If you like the way it sounds I don't know why some readout or frequency plot would convince you something sucks. Our ears = the ultimate plug-in doctors 😁 It gets wonky fast, but aliasing in DSP is not the same type of thing as harmonic distortion created by analog circuits. Analog circuits being driven into distortion generate harmonics that are inherently related to the original signal. Aliasing happens when you try to turn an analog signal into a bunch of discrete sample points (ie a digital signal) but those sample points are too far apart to accurately reproduce the original signal. The quantization process has to sort of 'guess' what the solutions to the sample points are, and with too much room between sample points, it makes bad guesses. Or, put a better way maybe, for a given set of discrete sample points, you can have multiple frequencies that are mathematically 'correct' solutions to those sample points, when only one of them is actually part of the original signal. This gives you frequency content that is not harmonically related to the original signal. It's just a junky mathematical error because we don't have enough sample points and there is too much room for interpretation re: what the actual original signal is. I am not one who thinks that Plugin Doctor or any other type of analytical tool should be the main measuring rod for making music with audio processors. But it is worth noting that DSP errors are intrinsically not the same thing as analog harmonic distortion. thank you for posting this. This was a very great and elucidating post for me. A poorly functioning plug-in processor will end up guessing. A fast attack digital compressor (or very poor analog one) might not detect the peak you want to compress at all and instead compress afterwards. The peak you wanted to suppress will louder when you raise the makeup gain. Many functions greatly expand the bandwidth of the signal with harmonics. Analog usually has that bandwidth. CD sample rate digital doesn’t and assumes the signal has already been filtered to the human hearing range. The 90s solution to fit within that seems to have been to bandpass the sidechain to have less high frequency than a telephone. Primitive but effective. I agree with you and seawell about ears as the ultimate judge just that most of the poorly measuring digital compressors are of a much more limited utility than the cleaner ones. I use some dirty stuff like the omnipressor plugin and fetpressor but if they were cleaned up and modernized to become better behaving on a wider range of their settings, I would be able to use them more often.
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Post by seawell on Jun 13, 2023 6:24:59 GMT -6
I'm not sure what you mean Dan, tubes, transformers and consoles are all routinely pushed to saturation intentionally as they sound awesome that way. I push a 176, Sta Level or Bluey there all the time. Even something as sweet and beautiful as the LH95 EQs have this killer saturation when you pushed into them hot(particularly on a stereo bus). In regards to whatever Plug-in doctor is finding, imagine running it on a 1073 vs a modern RND. The modern one would technically be the much better design but I bet you wouldn't find anyone that thought it sounded better in real world use. My point is that I don't think low or zero distortion necessarily equals something being better. The whole plug-in doctor/aliasing thing is a bit weird to me. If you like the way it sounds I don't know why some readout or frequency plot would convince you something sucks. Our ears = the ultimate plug-in doctors 😁 It gets wonky fast, but aliasing in DSP is not the same type of thing as harmonic distortion created by analog circuits. Analog circuits being driven into distortion generate harmonics that are inherently related to the original signal. Aliasing happens when you try to turn an analog signal into a bunch of discrete sample points (ie a digital signal) but those sample points are too far apart to accurately reproduce the original signal. The quantization process has to sort of 'guess' what the solutions to the sample points are, and with too much room between sample points, it makes bad guesses. Or, put a better way maybe, for a given set of discrete sample points, you can have multiple frequencies that are mathematically 'correct' solutions to those sample points, when only one of them is actually part of the original signal. This gives you frequency content that is not harmonically related to the original signal. It's just a junky mathematical error because we don't have enough sample points and there is too much room for interpretation re: what the actual original signal is. I am not one who thinks that Plugin Doctor or any other type of analytical tool should be the main measuring rod for making music with audio processors. But it is worth noting that DSP errors are intrinsically not the same thing as analog harmonic distortion. Thanks Ragan, that was great info. I should’ve been more clear, I know plugins obviously aren’t saturating/distorting like hardware 😁. My response was to the comment that hardware isn’t saturating. I don’t understand what that means. I get aliasing, I just don’t get the emphasis on it. For instance CLA 76 plug-in gets ragged on all the time but I like how it sounds 🤷🏻♂️ My example of a 1073 wasn’t the right example for this discussion so sorry for any confusion there I was just trying to make the point that something being technically better may not in the end produce a sound that’s interesting. I see plugins get released all the time that get shot down online based off of their plug-in doctor scan before anyone even took the time to really listen to them. I really like some of the ones that get trashed and find some of the ones with the best plug-in doctor scores kind of boring.
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 13, 2023 7:49:45 GMT -6
imagine running it on a 1073 vs a modern RND. The modern one would technically be the much better design but I bet you wouldn't find anyone that thought it sounded better in real world use. :sheepishly raises hand: 🤣🤣🤷🏻♀️
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Post by seawell on Jun 13, 2023 8:40:37 GMT -6
imagine running it on a 1073 vs a modern RND. The modern one would technically be the much better design but I bet you wouldn't find anyone that thought it sounded better in real world use. :sheepishly raises hand: 🤣🤣🤷🏻♀️ 🤣🤣🤣
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Post by Ward on Jun 13, 2023 9:45:08 GMT -6
imagine running it on a 1073 vs a modern RND. The modern one would technically be the much better design but I bet you wouldn't find anyone that thought it sounded better in real world use. :sheepishly raises hand: 🤣🤣🤷🏻♀️ LMAO
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