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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 13, 2023 16:02:06 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 13, 2023 18:32:26 GMT -6
Proof that Apple actually did their homework, this time. |
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Post by Ward on Jun 14, 2023 11:38:00 GMT -6
Proof that Apple actually did their homework, this time. You mean, there's a world outside of Infinity Loop? |
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Post by veggieryan on Jun 15, 2023 11:52:05 GMT -6
For me the big question is the single core cpu benchmark score since its most important for audio work doing realtime monitoring at low latency. I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade from my M1 Pro chip until there is a more significant improvement. M2 sales are already suffering because of this I assume. I was thinking the Mac Pro would be an M3 chip for this reason. Big disappointment from my perspective...
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Post by svart on Jun 15, 2023 13:45:33 GMT -6
It only looks underwhelming to the naked eye. If you look at it through a their 3500$ goggles, it looks amazing.
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Post by jonasj on Jun 15, 2023 17:01:55 GMT -6
I’ve have not been able to find any info on Avid discontinuing HDX, where do I find that?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 15, 2023 17:53:23 GMT -6
It only looks underwhelming to the naked eye. If you look at it through a their 3500$ goggles, it looks amazing. I will quote the former head of design for one of the worlds largest PC builders “ We will never compete with Apple until we develop software, OS and all products in house. Of course because we would not be building commodity products our costs would increase exponentially as would our potential profits.” I always find it funny that the guys I know who appear to be the biggest Apple fans because they own everything Apple are all product development big wigs At companies that either make PC’s or the majority of their products are PC based, oh those Apple collections are all at the expense and bequest of their employers who want to be “ Apple like “. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Jun 16, 2023 1:28:51 GMT -6
I’m still happy with my choice of 2 x 16 core 2019. 7,1 nmp’s and HDX 2. It’ll keep me happy for another few years.
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Post by svart on Jun 16, 2023 7:45:55 GMT -6
It only looks underwhelming to the naked eye. If you look at it through a their 3500$ goggles, it looks amazing. I will quote the former head of design for one of the worlds largest PC builders “ We will never compete with Apple until we develop software, OS and all products in house. Of course because we would not be building commodity products our costs would increase exponentially as would our potential profits.” I always find it funny that the guys I know who appear to be the biggest Apple fans because they own everything Apple are all product development big wigs At companies that either make PC’s or the majority of their products are PC based, oh those Apple collections are all at the expense and bequest of their employers who want to be “ Apple like “. I read something that really made sense to me.. "Apple is a luxury brand" Apple was always genius marketing, I'll admit. Take something readily available with cheaper alternatives (computers) and market your version as "better". "Only pros use Macs" or "Macs are for creatives" was absolutely genius because now all you hear is "You'll never walk into a PRO studio and see a PC" or "I had some issues with a PC once and now I use Mac" and all that stuff. People will pay through the nose for them and give all kinds of reasoning why they spent a lot more money on a luxury item despite millions of their peers getting along just fine with peasant alternatives. A 5000$ monitor with a 1000$ stand that you can get the equivalent from BenQ for 700$? A 1500$ phone with a 500$ OnePlus equivalent? A 10000$ workstation with a 1500$ PC equivalent? It's the same reason people buy a Rolex and not a Timex.. "A Rolex can go 1000m underwater!" Son, you aren't going wreck diving off the bahamas. If you were, you'd be a fool to wear your 7K$ rolex anyway. You're going to be wearing your timex because it works and if you lose it, it's no big deal. It's even more genius.. "My Iphone/Mac is getting a little slow, time to get a new one".. Which is pretty much the Apple version of "I updated windows and now something doesn't work". |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 16, 2023 8:08:03 GMT -6
Maybe, or just buy used (my m1 mini was cheap $), or upgrade to new models when released and sell previous.
I know someone who does this, always under warranty and amortized costs aren’t so bad and they never have an old computer.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 16, 2023 8:51:58 GMT -6
I will quote the former head of design for one of the worlds largest PC builders “ We will never compete with Apple until we develop software, OS and all products in house. Of course because we would not be building commodity products our costs would increase exponentially as would our potential profits.” I always find it funny that the guys I know who appear to be the biggest Apple fans because they own everything Apple are all product development big wigs At companies that either make PC’s or the majority of their products are PC based, oh those Apple collections are all at the expense and bequest of their employers who want to be “ Apple like “. I read something that really made sense to me.. "Apple is a luxury brand" Apple was always genius marketing, I'll admit. Take something readily available with cheaper alternatives (computers) and market your version as "better". "Only pros use Macs" or "Macs are for creatives" was absolutely genius because now all you hear is "You'll never walk into a PRO studio and see a PC" or "I had some issues with a PC once and now I use Mac" and all that stuff. People will pay through the nose for them and give all kinds of reasoning why they spent a lot more money on a luxury item despite millions of their peers getting along just fine with peasant alternatives. A 5000$ monitor with a 1000$ stand that you can get the equivalent from BenQ for 700$? A 1500$ phone with a 500$ OnePlus equivalent? A 10000$ workstation with a 1500$ PC equivalent? It's the same reason people buy a Rolex and not a Timex.. "A Rolex can go 1000m underwater!" Son, you aren't going wreck diving off the bahamas. If you were, you'd be a fool to wear your 7K$ rolex anyway. You're going to be wearing your timex because it works and if you lose it, it's no big deal. It's even more genius.. "My Iphone/Mac is getting a little slow, time to get a new one".. Which is pretty much the Apple version of "I updated windows and now something doesn't work". I don’t really get into the pc vs Mac thing cause it just doesn’t matter to me. What I DO know however, is that I got my current Mac mini in 2012 for just about a grand. Opened it up and maxed out the ram. Put it in a rack mount chassis, put the chassis in my rack. It’s been sitting there ever since, never had a problem, never any hiccups, it’s awesome. It’s slightly long in the tooth at this point, but I’m still able to produce and make records with it. I’m going to soon pull the trigger on one of the new Mac Studios. I mean, for $2k…. I can be set for another 10 years? Worth it for me. Totally not discounting the fact that a pc very well could have had the same performance and longevity for somebody else. I just don’t want to deal with learning how to deal with the ins and outs of a pc again. It’s been close to 25 years, don’t see myself going back unless I somehow become an accountant (not gonna happen) |
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Post by sirthought on Jun 16, 2023 9:47:41 GMT -6
I will quote the former head of design for one of the worlds largest PC builders “ We will never compete with Apple until we develop software, OS and all products in house. Of course because we would not be building commodity products our costs would increase exponentially as would our potential profits.” I always find it funny that the guys I know who appear to be the biggest Apple fans because they own everything Apple are all product development big wigs At companies that either make PC’s or the majority of their products are PC based, oh those Apple collections are all at the expense and bequest of their employers who want to be “ Apple like “. I read something that really made sense to me.. "Apple is a luxury brand" Apple was always genius marketing, I'll admit. Take something readily available with cheaper alternatives (computers) and market your version as "better". "Only pros use Macs" or "Macs are for creatives" was absolutely genius because now all you hear is "You'll never walk into a PRO studio and see a PC" or "I had some issues with a PC once and now I use Mac" and all that stuff. People will pay through the nose for them and give all kinds of reasoning why they spent a lot more money on a luxury item despite millions of their peers getting along just fine with peasant alternatives. A 5000$ monitor with a 1000$ stand that you can get the equivalent from BenQ for 700$? A 1500$ phone with a 500$ OnePlus equivalent? A 10000$ workstation with a 1500$ PC equivalent? It's the same reason people buy a Rolex and not a Timex.. "A Rolex can go 1000m underwater!" Son, you aren't going wreck diving off the bahamas. If you were, you'd be a fool to wear your 7K$ rolex anyway. You're going to be wearing your timex because it works and if you lose it, it's no big deal. It's even more genius.. "My Iphone/Mac is getting a little slow, time to get a new one".. Which is pretty much the Apple version of "I updated windows and now something doesn't work". I've worked in the Pro A/V world for some time. We do everything from concert venues, to mega churches, sports arenas, and a lot of corporate auditoriums, board rooms, classrooms, etc. So not just live sound, but digital signage, video conferencing, video matrix, video projection, control systems, etc. Anyhow, we are a total Mac shop, and in the majority of our experience our team designs things with whatever software was needed on the Mac. Stuff works frequently right out of the gate with no issues. When clients use PC software stuff would frequently not work and we have have to trouble shoot, sometimes multiple times because we'd get it working for employee A's laptop, but employee B's laptop didn't work. I know in several avenues the PC experience is fine and software can compete and sometimes exceed Mac. But much of what we do we find the PC experience to be an issue. Bugs happen in all software. I know this all too well. But it is so frustrating to know that you have a system working flawlessly on a Mac and then your client can't get anything to work because they are on Windows. We have some PC laptops now, but it's a thorn because it slows the workload often. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 16, 2023 10:06:59 GMT -6
For me the big question is the single core cpu benchmark score since its most important for audio work doing realtime monitoring at low latency. I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade from my M1 Pro chip until there is a more significant improvement. M2 sales are already suffering because of this I assume. I was thinking the Mac Pro would be an M3 chip for this reason. Big disappointment from my perspective... This is where Apple should have a huge advantage but they don’t. If Apple were to sit down it’s hardware development guys with the chip team, the Logic team and a strategic hardware interface developers, they could build us a better AV mouse trap. Instead they all work in their own little boxes just like the PC world, only under one roof. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2023 10:25:19 GMT -6
I will quote the former head of design for one of the worlds largest PC builders “ We will never compete with Apple until we develop software, OS and all products in house. Of course because we would not be building commodity products our costs would increase exponentially as would our potential profits.” I always find it funny that the guys I know who appear to be the biggest Apple fans because they own everything Apple are all product development big wigs At companies that either make PC’s or the majority of their products are PC based, oh those Apple collections are all at the expense and bequest of their employers who want to be “ Apple like “. I read something that really made sense to me.. "Apple is a luxury brand" Apple was always genius marketing, I'll admit. Take something readily available with cheaper alternatives (computers) and market your version as "better". "Only pros use Macs" or "Macs are for creatives" was absolutely genius because now all you hear is "You'll never walk into a PRO studio and see a PC" or "I had some issues with a PC once and now I use Mac" and all that stuff. People will pay through the nose for them and give all kinds of reasoning why they spent a lot more money on a luxury item despite millions of their peers getting along just fine with peasant alternatives. A 5000$ monitor with a 1000$ stand that you can get the equivalent from BenQ for 700$? A 1500$ phone with a 500$ OnePlus equivalent? A 10000$ workstation with a 1500$ PC equivalent? It's the same reason people buy a Rolex and not a Timex.. "A Rolex can go 1000m underwater!" Son, you aren't going wreck diving off the bahamas. If you were, you'd be a fool to wear your 7K$ rolex anyway. You're going to be wearing your timex because it works and if you lose it, it's no big deal. It's even more genius.. "My Iphone/Mac is getting a little slow, time to get a new one".. Which is pretty much the Apple version of "I updated windows and now something doesn't work". outside of certain Mac mini’s and MacBooks, it’s a joke. Both os are not designed around near real time audio and video processing and run into hiccups. Average off the shelf windows laptop or pre built desktop has hardware with device drivers that do not work for low latency audio. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 16, 2023 10:35:43 GMT -6
I will quote the former head of design for one of the worlds largest PC builders “ We will never compete with Apple until we develop software, OS and all products in house. Of course because we would not be building commodity products our costs would increase exponentially as would our potential profits.” I always find it funny that the guys I know who appear to be the biggest Apple fans because they own everything Apple are all product development big wigs At companies that either make PC’s or the majority of their products are PC based, oh those Apple collections are all at the expense and bequest of their employers who want to be “ Apple like “. I read something that really made sense to me.. "Apple is a luxury brand" Apple was always genius marketing, I'll admit. Take something readily available with cheaper alternatives (computers) and market your version as "better". "Only pros use Macs" or "Macs are for creatives" was absolutely genius because now all you hear is "You'll never walk into a PRO studio and see a PC" or "I had some issues with a PC once and now I use Mac" and all that stuff. People will pay through the nose for them and give all kinds of reasoning why they spent a lot more money on a luxury item despite millions of their peers getting along just fine with peasant alternatives. A 5000$ monitor with a 1000$ stand that you can get the equivalent from BenQ for 700$? A 1500$ phone with a 500$ OnePlus equivalent? A 10000$ workstation with a 1500$ PC equivalent? It's the same reason people buy a Rolex and not a Timex.. "A Rolex can go 1000m underwater!" Son, you aren't going wreck diving off the bahamas. If you were, you'd be a fool to wear your 7K$ rolex anyway. You're going to be wearing your timex because it works and if you lose it, it's no big deal. It's even more genius.. "My Iphone/Mac is getting a little slow, time to get a new one".. Which is pretty much the Apple version of "I updated windows and now something doesn't work". I don't know about this, maybe at the high end. The iPhone at this point is pretty much in line with other comparable phones costwise. And frankly it's way better, I tried to switch to Android... whew boy, never making that mistake again. Such a PITA operating system compared to iOS. And I'm not so sure that it's accurate to say that you can get a PC for the same or cheaper at this point. Apple costs have gone way down (or, more accurately, have stayed close to the same while inflation pushes everything else up). Look at the new MacBook Air 15". What is the PC equivalent that is better for $1,299? The M2 chip with a 15" screen for a little over a grand? Leave aside compatibility, industry standard, and all that garbage... let's even leave aside what a clunker Windows is compared to the very sleek Mac OS (I've used the latest Windows extensively, it's very user unfriendly in my opinion with endless extensions and bloatware). Just in terms of hardware quality and power, I don't think PC's are much cheaper than the current Macbook Air and Macbook Pro mid grade lineup. EDIT: I will agree on one point though. The price of the Apple displays is pure comedy. In that case I agree, it's just a brand. The displays are nice but... c'mon. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 16, 2023 10:40:26 GMT -6
Been running macs for about a decade now, other than managing boot drive space, never any serious problems: they just work fine.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 17, 2023 10:56:09 GMT -6
A Mac Studio M2 Ultra with 64GB RAM and 1TB m.2 ssd will cost me in my country $5,380.
A Professionally built PC workstation (with a 3 year warranty) with the following specs.
i9 13th gen 24 core 13800K
64GB RAM
1TB OS m.2 ssd
4TB m.2 ssd
4TB m.2 ssd
2TB audio ssd
2TB mirror back-up ssd
So a total of 13TB of internal storage (9TB being 7,000 MB's transfer speed)
will cost me just under $3,800
So $2000 cheaper than the Mac Studio and 12TB more storage!
Now the Studio does look great and I'm sure it will be very slick and all that
but it's hard to ignore just how good a value a PC is from a storage point of view.
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Post by gmichael on Jun 18, 2023 16:41:55 GMT -6
A Mac Studio M2 Ultra with 64GB RAM and 1TB m.2 ssd will cost me in my country $5,380. A Professionally built PC workstation (with a 3 year warranty) with the following specs. i9 13th gen 24 core 13800K 64GB RAM 1TB OS m.2 ssd 4TB m.2 ssd 4TB m.2 ssd 2TB audio ssd 2TB mirror back-up ssd So a total of 13TB of internal storage (9TB being 7,000 MB's transfer speed) will cost me just under $3,800 So $2000 cheaper than the Mac Studio and 12TB more storage! Now the Studio does look great and I'm sure it will be very slick and all that but it's hard to ignore just how good a value a PC is from a storage point of view. May I ask which country you're in Tenor? It's a very revealing cost comparison. I'm expanding one of my studio production rooms to include a Mac. It's looking like a mini M1 with a docking expansion for storage and ports. I'll probably add a used Apple display and some type of cost efficient multi disk external storage, nothing too fancy but efficient. Primary use of the Mac setup will be tracking in LUNA/Logic/PT12 and some light duty audio restoration and small project mixing. My one concern about the mac mini is how the memory is used and how it can draw from the SSD to add ram when needed, it seems this potentially is a ssd killer in mac's, which I kind of struggle to wrap my head around especially coming from PC world where there is never a concern for this scenario, PC's don't eat SSD's.
My next PC will still run my studio and I will most likely slave this overspec'd pro audio purpose built PC to the new one. Now realising how simple it is to build a PC monster, I'll give that a go with a back up plan being able to run to Vin at Avvim pro audio in case that goes pear shaped, which I doubt it will all things considered. If PC gave me access to the popular DAW's like Logic and LUNA, I would totally just stay PC but I want composers and writers who rent the room in question to have access to the environment they are accustomed to. And I want access to LUNA for my own use as well! Once an either or topic, I think it is a viable consideration to having both PC and mac and I'm grateful to the mac'sters for sharing their experience and tips for stepping into the lesser known. But no matter the advances of Mac silicone, it seems to me that PC is still the absolute best option for extraordinary power and headroom for the hungriest tasks and for guaranteeing no/minimal risk of losing client assets due to how a computer is configured to mitigate it's resources under extreme loads.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 19, 2023 13:25:40 GMT -6
It's interesting that each Mac Pro release generates another round of Apple-bashing. Remember when the Trashcan was announced? It was beat down from every angle- form factor (odd, ugly: it looks like a Trashcan! Hence the nickname), lack of expandability (no PCIE slots!), limited RAM capacity (128MB) and poor SSD storage upgradeability (proprietary connector, no NVMe without the latest firmware). But it found it's way into hundreds of studios, including mine. The 2019 Intel was bashed on price and appearance, yet it successfully replaced the Trashcan, and is out there delivering content on a daily basis. I suspect that the same thing will happen with this version too, maybe for those who did not buy a 2019 and still need slots. Is it a niche product? Absolutely. It always has been. Has the market for it shrunk? Yes indeed. For those of us who don't need PCIE slots, the M2 Ultra Studio is the machine of choice, no question. I'm guessing that Apple heard from the film/video industry of a need for an update to the 2019 Mac Pro's GPU capability, and they've responded. The available maximum video spec is massive (76-core GPU), promising huge performance, and may drive sales. But the 192MB RAM limit is a bottleneck; this may not be enough for some power users who dislike swapping. Time -and sales- will tell.
It is clear that Apple believes the system-on-a-chip (SoC) approach is the present and future of computing system architecture. It offers efficiencies and capability that the old IBM component paradigm (CPU/RAM/Videocard) does not. Apple is pushing the envelope, and if I was a betting man I'd put my money on Apple continuing to deliver significant technical advances over the next five to ten years and beyond. The onset of SoC may have been a factor in Avid's decision to discontinue the HDX card, and if the entire computing industry shifts to SoC, it will certainly impact any product reliant on internal PCIE expansion. The end of the road may be in sight for this technology.
Then there is the issue of thermal performance. This problem has eventually cropped up for me on every Intel Mac product I own. My Trashcan started "thermalling" (as in abruptly shutting down) about 6 months ago. Blowing it out with air did nothing to improve things. Running a minimal active software profile- nothing. My conclusion was that the current crop of software uses so much computing power that Intel CPUs eventually suffer from overheating on Mac systems. The same thing occurred with my prior machine, a 2012 maxed-out M7 Mini. Heck, these days it overheats running multiple Firefox tabs! But that is a thing of the past for me now. The bottom line is that Apple silicon runs cool, and is quiet since SoC allows for ultra-low noise fans to be used. For me, this is a big deal. I do not have a machine room and have always lived with fan noise nearby. Not anymore.
If any of you RGO-ers buy one of the new machines, I'd be interested in hearing your experience with it. Meanwhile, I'm loving my M1 Ultra Studio. It's a semi-beast!
Until they support external GPUs(actual graphics cards) I won't believe they are listening to any video editors/colorists or any rendering professional. 76 GPU cores seems great. But it pales in comparison to even mid tier graphics cards that have thousands of cores. If they were smart they'd allow graphics cards and the drivers would allow useage of both the SOC cores and cards cores. It would certainly be unmatched then in terms of power for rendering applications. By a lot. And I agree, they should have a beefier processor available for the Pro. The m1/2 chips are impressive, but they already are behind in single and multi core performance that you can get from PC's. (apple still wins for performance per watt by far though). It'll only get better and better though. Will be cool to see where we are in 5 years. So much has changed in the processor world in the last 5 years alone. But you could get a PCIe NMVE chassis for a lot more storage so that's cool. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 19, 2023 13:27:31 GMT -6
I’ve have not been able to find any info on Avid discontinuing HDX, where do I find that? I haven't seen anything about that. |
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Post by matt on Jun 20, 2023 13:04:44 GMT -6
If the entire computing industry shifts to SoC, it will certainly impact any product reliant on internal PCIE expansion. The end of the road may be in sight for this technology. Edited my previous post to remove a comment about the discontinuation of Avid's HDX card. I was incorrect. Here is a short article on what they have discontinued:
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