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Post by linas on May 26, 2023 2:40:44 GMT -6
Hey guys,
any thoughts on the question? Are there any speakers suitable for a small untreated room with terrible acoustics? I do not wish to mix and master in my room but it would be nice to have at least an okay sound in here. Any kind of cardiod-whatever speakers or something?
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Post by kcatthedog on May 26, 2023 4:04:15 GMT -6
Why not demo slate vsx, might be the better option?
See the thread here .
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Post by nick8801 on May 26, 2023 4:05:00 GMT -6
What’s your budget? I would split the difference on your monitor budget and invest in some sound treatment as well. Are we talking about a very small room? I’d say any smallish monitor is going to be better than the bigger ones, because you will deal with less bass issues. A friend has the Yamaha HS5’s and they’re perfect for his smaller mostly untreated space. Also, get a good pair of phones for checking bass if you can.
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Post by lowlou on May 26, 2023 4:22:10 GMT -6
I have not read your post in full, sorry, so I don't know about any budget limit that might be a limiting factor. Just know that I've been looking for monitors for a small room, asymetrical, so typically difficult. The answer is basically the emerging "cardioid" style of monitors.
Geithains K serie
Dutch&Ductch 8c
Kii three
Sigberg Audio Manta
is what I'm now interested in. Have not tried any. Nor is my room finished. But I'm putting money aside for these. They work in less than optimal rooms. They even manage to sound stellar, is what's written all over the internet, Gearspace, Tape Op reviews etc etc.
And to these monitors, one might want to invest in passive broadband absorption (wall, ceiling), and several PSI Avaa (one per room corner) to handle room mode in the very low range. Overall, it's an investment, but results are tangible, and the system can move with you.
cheers
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Post by linas on May 26, 2023 5:32:31 GMT -6
My room is like 14m2, it's pretty rectangular. I won't bother with acoustic treatment and will work with quality headphones. I currently have HS8's, but I want much much better speakers that can sound decent in my shitty apartment. I could go anywhere from 1k to 5k... maybe. I've had passive Quested level speakers but not in this room. The room had very good acoustics and it sounded almost perfect for what you can have at home
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Post by linas on May 26, 2023 5:33:51 GMT -6
Yes, I'm interested in the new smaller Dutch&Dutch speakers, but I have a huge window in front of my desk, so I'm not really sure if they would work that well
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Post by vvvooojjj on May 26, 2023 7:14:17 GMT -6
14m2 is completely fine but I'd say the first things to get would be a cloud, bass traps or tube traps to corners and panels to kill the first reflections. You might be surprised how good the HS8s can sound.
For speakers: something+Trinnov or Genelecs with GLM.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 26, 2023 7:25:53 GMT -6
Personally, I’d fix the room to some extent before spending any major money on good monitors, otherwise, you are putting them in a compromising position.
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Post by mcirish on May 26, 2023 7:54:57 GMT -6
Honestly, the HS8's are probably fine. The problems you are hearing are not speaker related. They are room related. You could spend a fortune on speakers and you will still have issues until you sort out the room problems. I've bought a fair amount of speakers. I currently use Dynaudio LYD48 monitors. They are very good but without room treatment and Sonarworks, they would have the same problems as other speakers I had before. Bare minimum, get a few panels (rigid fiberglass) to handle the first reflection points and then get Sonarworks. They have a sale on it right now (or at least did yesterday). Get the version with the calibration mic. With that, you can at least get the mix position to be closer to flat. Seriously the best money I ever spent in the studio. It's cheap and it solves the room mode problems in the mix position. Absolutely, don't bother with foam absorbers. They do nothing to the lower mids and bass. All those would do is suck the air out of the room. I struggled for years with mixes that sounded good in the studio and sucked in the real world. I had minimal room treatment and no software to fix the room issues. Once I built some OC703 rigid fiberglass panels (like GIK) and got Sonarworks and ran the calibration, my mixes translate nearly perfect now. You can't mix what you can't hear. The room is going to prevent you from hearing what's really happening. It does not matter how expensive the speakers are. A typical room that is untreated is going to have a gigantic dip somewhere around 100HZ. That could be as much as -30dB. And then, you will also have some 6-12dB boost at a lower frequency ~ 40-50HZ. No speaker is going to sound any better than the room they are in. Just get Sonarworks with the mic and run the calibration. It will show you what's really going on and you can start fixing it.
I wouldn't bother with better speakers unless you did some room treatments and bought Sonarworks.
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Post by sean on May 26, 2023 8:16:33 GMT -6
Agree...my home is acoustically weird, and even with A LOT of room treatment there's things that couldn't be fixed without major construction, and I've owned and tried several different speakers here from expensive (PMC IB2S) to cheap (Avantone MixCubes) and I recently purchased Neumann KH80's with the MA1 microphone and it's be this room has translated. There's not a lot of EQ going on but it helps with a crazy 140Hz null that the result of the dimensions. You might also consider something like the Trinnov Nova if you don't think the apartment is going to be long term dwelling and you don't want to hang panels. Expensive, but you can take it with you (or take it everywhere)
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Post by aremos on May 26, 2023 9:05:53 GMT -6
Yes, I'm interested in the new smaller Dutch&Dutch speakers, but I have a huge window in front of my desk, so I'm not really sure if they would work that well They would. |
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Post by donr on May 26, 2023 9:09:54 GMT -6
I second the Slate VSX recommendation. I'm not a professional AE, but I've made records over 50 years.
The virtue of VSX is multiple sets of monitors and rooms and autos to verify your mix for frequency balance and compatibility on a variety of systems.
If you make/verify your EQ choices with VSX you can mix with confidence on whatever monitors in your bad room. It's not very expensive to try VSX out.
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Post by theshea on May 26, 2023 9:10:18 GMT -6
i mixed once in a bad room. impossible with speakers. only way was with headphones. so i wouldn‘t waste my money on monitors but on headphones.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on May 26, 2023 9:59:08 GMT -6
In my terrible room, I've been the happiest with my elementary mixing skills using a combination of any generic monitor run a very low volumes (like you can easily talk over it) supplemented with headphones/Sonarworks.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2023 11:03:50 GMT -6
These days DSP and traditional room treatments can go a long way. There is no one monitor I can say works well in bad rooms, but in general those with waveguides are going to by their very nature keep HF early reflections off of side walls.
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Post by niklas1073 on May 26, 2023 11:27:26 GMT -6
As mentioned already before… headphones. This topic has been touched before but ill give my two cents anyway. Already some years back i moved over to mix almost exclusively with headphones. This was not due to bad room per se, but a combination of not dough enough to invest in good monitoring and making it possible to mix wherever i was and always have the same listening. The hunt was then to find a good set of headphones. nowadays its a second nature. I have since purchased a set of adams which i really like and mainly check my lowends with those. But i would really recommend investing the time to learn the headphone way. Working with a bad room will never be the solution.
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Post by tasteliketape on May 26, 2023 11:38:24 GMT -6
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Post by donr on May 26, 2023 13:57:52 GMT -6
Are ANY headphones or speakers flat freq? I don't know. For monitors, "the devil that you know" would seem to be the tool. Columbia records engineers were making those good sounding recordings back when with just Altec 604's for monitors. No near fields at all.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2023 14:08:08 GMT -6
Are ANY headphones or speakers flat freq? I don't know. For monitors, "the devil that you know" would seem to be the tool. Columbia records engineers were making those good sounding recordings back when with just Altec 604's for monitors. No near fields at all. Define “flat”, without a bunch of curve smoothing the real response of any speaker or mic is a series of peaks and valleys. Then add in the effects of a crossover and the room. |
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Post by niklas1073 on May 26, 2023 14:24:50 GMT -6
Are ANY headphones or speakers flat freq? I don't know. For monitors, "the devil that you know" would seem to be the tool. Columbia records engineers were making those good sounding recordings back when with just Altec 604's for monitors. No near fields at all. I would put it this way. It’s actually not really that interesting how flat the phones or monitors are. As long as they have a balanced frequency response that reveals the full range as well as possible. Then it’s up to learning your own specific listening with all that it offers in good and bad. I trained with my headphones by listening to music…. A lot and for a long time, reference tracks you name, constantly until my ears started to pick up the nuances and details and I started to slowly understand the audio image. The hardest part was actually the low end. Therefor I still tend, at some point, double check that with some monitors to be sure Im in the ball park, but that’s more for the peace of mind. I use the akg702. They are not hyped and they are boring enough to be pleasant to listen to for long days, and I find them easy to understand. And at the end of the day they really changed my perspective. I was suddenly hearing my mixes in details i had never heard before and was able to address issues I didn’t hear with insufficient monitors, even though my room is decent and treated. |
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Post by linas on May 28, 2023 8:28:02 GMT -6
Ok, are there any quality waveguide monitors that could be placed horizontally?
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Post by trakworxmastering on May 28, 2023 9:38:39 GMT -6
If you dislike mixing on headphones as much as I do, then I say keep your existing monitors and get www.dirac.com/live/. |
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Post by thehightenor on May 28, 2023 10:03:29 GMT -6
For me if the room is bad, remove the room from the equation and mix on some sort of modern headphone solution.
Use monitors for writing, arranging and editing and then for mixing and mastering switch to headphones, for example the Slate VSX system.
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Post by linas on May 28, 2023 10:11:57 GMT -6
I actually start the main loop with mixing and mastering on headphones and then move for arrangement and finishing to HS8's. Works great!
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Post by kcatthedog on May 28, 2023 11:28:34 GMT -6
I think the new adams allow you to rotate tweeters for vertical or horizontal placement and come with sonarworks: you might want to check those out.
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