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Post by copperx on May 1, 2023 14:12:59 GMT -6
Hi, Does anybody know what is the Warm Audio BUS-Comp circuit like? It doesn't seem to be based on the Gyraf clone. One thing I don't like about Gyraf clones is that the knee is too soft. Does the Warm have a sharper knee, like the Smart C1? There are the SSL clone categories I have in my head, but I don't know where to put the Warm audio. Hmm. Gyraf SSL-based clones
- Audioscape Buss Comp (adds sidechain highpass)
- Stam 4000 (adds DBX cans recreation)
- Obsidian (adds transformers)
- Nekotronics (adds transformers, 500 version adds fully variable attack/release)
- Serpent SB4001 (Adds variable release, high THD mode)
- WesAudio Dione (digital control / recall)
- Tegeler Creme (adds built-in EQ)
Non-Gyraf SSL based clonesUnique circuits based on SSL / not cloned (yet)
- SSL X-Logic Compressor et al.
- Smart C1/C2/C1LA
- Rolls RMS755
- Vertigo VSC-2
Uncategorized- TK Audio BC-1 (No idea about circuit)
- Warm Audio BUS-COMP (?)
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Post by EmRR on May 1, 2023 14:19:58 GMT -6
Not sure the SB4001 goes in that bucket, or really how that bucket is chosen.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 1, 2023 14:31:11 GMT -6
Well, it is based on the ssl but i have never seen the knee specified?
I believe the ssl was harder at first but softened as you drove it harder?
Why do you ask, are you concerned about the WA being grabby or harsh?
I have had the Audioscape , Stam mki and the Warm, I still have the Warm, as I liked its extra features and the option of selecting transformers or not .
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Post by copperx on May 1, 2023 14:34:04 GMT -6
Why do you ask, are you concerned about the WA being grabby or harsh? I ask because I like its price point, but I'm disappointed with Gyraf-style clones. They're alright, but I want something a bit more grabby, like the X-Logic or Smart compressors. So maybe it is worth a try to buy one to see if it has a harder knee. |
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Post by copperx on May 1, 2023 14:36:31 GMT -6
Not sure the SB4001 goes in that bucket, or really how that bucket is chosen. From reading a bunch of stuff on GroupDIY back from when Serpent was Shadow Audio, it does look like the SA4000 / SA4001 is based on the Gyraf plus the Oxford mod. |
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Post by kcatthedog on May 1, 2023 14:52:21 GMT -6
You can pick them up used fir not much, try one snd see.
If you had asked if I find it grabby, i’d say no, but I have it on my 2 bus for mastering, so don’t use extreme settings.
If you want to we transfer me a file, be happy to print it for you. i’m running an aurora N, so conversion shouldn't be an issue.
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Post by craigmorris74 on May 1, 2023 15:27:59 GMT -6
I always thought the guts of the Smart looked like the Gyraf with Oxford mod.
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Post by EmRR on May 1, 2023 15:40:18 GMT -6
Not sure the SB4001 goes in that bucket, or really how that bucket is chosen. From reading a bunch of stuff on GroupDIY back from when Serpent was Shadow Audio, it does look like the SA4000 / SA4001 is based on the Gyraf plus the Oxford mod. The DIY 4000 maybe (long gone) but the 4001 is somewhat a modern redesign. Quoting from early copy about the 4001: |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 15:44:47 GMT -6
If you want a real SSL, buy an SSL FX-G384 or the X-Logic and get them recapped but that’s pointless waste of cash at their current price points. You might as well buy a better compressor than anything SSL or SSL inspired.
/sober take
The knee hardens in 2:1, 4:1, and 10:1 and is from a soft clipped diode and the sweet spot also changes with the ratio. The needle must be in the sweet spots on the unit and auto-release is necessary at 4:1 and 10:1 to prevent the compression misbehavior and annoyingly audible action. The main thing with the SSL is the vca distortion in the older ones, the low noise circuitry, and the time constants of the smoothing filter that may or may not be present on your clone or emulation. The Smart C2 and the X-Logic are cleaner but they’re still dirty compared to something like Kotelnikov GE or MDWDRC2. Kotelnikov GE can snap and smash harder than anything SSL inspired and MDWDRC2 has no sweet spot by design for your fader moves to knock the compressor out of the sweet spot and be forced to compensate for, needing additional automation passes.
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Post by jmoose on May 1, 2023 16:22:47 GMT -6
I always thought the guts of the Smart looked like the Gyraf with Oxford mod. The only problem with that is the Smart's existed years before the gyraf / DIY clones. IMO based solely on comparison to the actual center section comp in a 4000G? The closest thing I've ever heard & used is an Alan Smart. Which kinda makes sense considering he was an OG SSL staff member. I've used a bunch of others & personally own the RMS 755 which, again its just like... my opinion man but it sounds nothing like the center section box which is EXACTLY the reason I bought it. Felt like the 755 gave me all the right time constraints & transient altering ability but didn't paint me into the "SSL" sound... The actual desk compressors to me impart an "edge" and upper mid presence... a kind of "smack" that doesn't exist in many of the klones. The RMS 755 has a tone that's way more open and neutral. It'll get aggressive when I need it, but it won't add that bite. Not super into the DIY thing... more about wrenching on my own repairs & maintenance but sometimes I wonder how much of the "differences" among these various klones boils down to power supply. And things like how stiff the rails are, ripples... reserve current. Minor details lol Obviously Alan Smart probably isn't cutting corners on the PSU... and most of the 500 boxes? Well that's a different power system now isn't it? But 'ya know, ultimately most all of 'em are perfectly capable of making a perfectly good record. |
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Post by Blackdawg on May 1, 2023 17:38:50 GMT -6
I think DIYRE actually measured and tested a few of these model including the Warm to show the ratio curves and other things. They had graphs of it somewhere..
One of the things they found was the VCA cans do not matter. So the fancy DBX ones aren't worth it. If the unit is calibrated correctly it doesn't have a sonic difference. But if you grab some 202c goldcan and slap them in your buss comp and then don't recalibrate it, it's gonna for sure sound way different.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 1, 2023 17:55:22 GMT -6
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Post by copperx on May 1, 2023 18:09:14 GMT -6
Interestingly, from the samples I've heard, the DIYRE sounds strange. Unlike a Gyraf and unlike an SSL/Smart. It could be just the samples I've heard from YouTube, but I didn't think it had the grabbiness/hard knee of the X-Logic/Smart either. I just want something that grabs like the X-Logic. What's funny is that the Daking FET III gets closer to that grabbiness than any of the clones. Maybe I need to consider options outside clones. |
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Post by copperx on May 2, 2023 0:57:33 GMT -6
I just got a message from TK Audio. Thomas mentions that the knee of the compressor gets softer as you add more ratios to the circuit. I thought that was interesting. Although that doesn't explain why the knee of the Audioscape is soft although it only has 3 ratios. And the knee of the Smart is hard even though it adds more ratios. Hmm.
The TK BC1-501 adds a "grab" option which makes the knee closer to the SSL, according to Thomas.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2023 11:41:45 GMT -6
Interestingly, from the samples I've heard, the DIYRE sounds strange. Unlike a Gyraf and unlike an SSL/Smart. It could be just the samples I've heard from YouTube, but I didn't think it had the grabbiness/hard knee of the X-Logic/Smart either. I just want something that grabs like the X-Logic. What's funny is that the Daking FET III gets closer to that grabbiness than any of the clones. Maybe I need to consider options outside clones. Why don’t you just get the Daking Comp II then, stereo match both channels pots with test tones, leave the pots in their matched positions, and drive it harder with insert gain? It’s a feedback vca with an auto release and made in the USA. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2023 11:58:37 GMT -6
I always thought the guts of the Smart looked like the Gyraf with Oxford mod. The only problem with that is the Smart's existed years before the gyraf / DIY clones. IMO based solely on comparison to the actual center section comp in a 4000G? The closest thing I've ever heard & used is an Alan Smart. Which kinda makes sense considering he was an OG SSL staff member. I've used a bunch of others & personally own the RMS 755 which, again its just like... my opinion man but it sounds nothing like the center section box which is EXACTLY the reason I bought it. Felt like the 755 gave me all the right time constraints & transient altering ability but didn't paint me into the "SSL" sound... The actual desk compressors to me impart an "edge" and upper mid presence... a kind of "smack" that doesn't exist in many of the klones. The RMS 755 has a tone that's way more open and neutral. It'll get aggressive when I need it, but it won't add that bite. Not super into the DIY thing... more about wrenching on my own repairs & maintenance but sometimes I wonder how much of the "differences" among these various klones boils down to power supply. And things like how stiff the rails are, ripples... reserve current. Minor details lol Obviously Alan Smart probably isn't cutting corners on the PSU... and most of the 500 boxes? Well that's a different power system now isn't it? But 'ya know, ultimately most all of 'em are perfectly capable of making a perfectly good record. the plugs and most of the clones won’t get you the ssl snare. I don’t get why the ocd, very particular people who want an ssl bus comp just don’t buy the smart c2 with the improved circuitry, especially in the side chain? The smart is still cheaper new than a used SSL or the new Bus+ monstrosity and still made in the UK. The China and glorified DIY gear is going to be made even cheaper than the original with probably more cheap outs in power supply and control path, maybe with filter values and Knees way ofd from the original from off capacitors and diodes. |
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Post by copperx on May 2, 2023 13:54:02 GMT -6
Why don’t you just get the Daking Comp II then, stereo match both channels pots with test tones, leave the pots in their matched positions, and drive it harder with insert gain? It’s a feedback vca with an auto release and made in the USA. Why the Daking Comp II? I haven't heard it, but from what I've read it's not similar to the FET III. |
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Post by jmoose on May 2, 2023 13:56:43 GMT -6
Interestingly, from the samples I've heard, the DIYRE sounds strange. Unlike a Gyraf and unlike an SSL/Smart. It could be just the samples I've heard from YouTube, but I didn't think it had the grabbiness/hard knee of the X-Logic/Smart either. I just want something that grabs like the X-Logic. What's funny is that the Daking FET III gets closer to that grabbiness than any of the clones. Maybe I need to consider options outside clones. Grab? I kinda get that. What are you using now? For outside options ever try the API 2500? It can go in that SSL 2 mix direction, cover some of the same ground while not sounding exactly the same. The Daking FET's tend to "grab" IMO more like a 2254 or Compex. Different sound. More obvious. |
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gyraf
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Post by gyraf on May 4, 2023 4:29:47 GMT -6
The only problem with that is the Smart's existed years before the gyraf / DIY clones. Nope - at least we weren't aware of ANYTHING that would do this around 1991, when we initially had to design the GSSL in order to have similar mix compressors in our calrec- and ssl rooms. We asked SSL, and they had no solution, it was them that recommended that we made our own "if you must"
/Jakob E.
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Post by EmRR on May 4, 2023 8:04:01 GMT -6
^
Hard to believe it’s been around so long, in this transient world. At least a decade before it was shared online, I’d guess.
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gyraf
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Post by gyraf on May 4, 2023 8:23:27 GMT -6
Yup, like the late-revision 1176'es we did - needed these desperately for our newly-built studio four for compatibility, but nobody made them at the time (!) Then later Purple took up making them and rest is history..
/Jakob E.
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Post by craigmorris74 on May 4, 2023 12:25:19 GMT -6
The only problem with that is the Smart's existed years before the gyraf / DIY clones. Nope - at least we weren't aware of ANYTHING that would do this around 1991, when we initially had to design the GSSL in order to have similar mix compressors in our calrec- and ssl rooms. We asked SSL, and they had no solution, it was them that recommended that we made our own "if you must"
/Jakob E.
That's what I thought when I made my comments above. And regarding the power supply of my GSSL, I can't imagine Smart is doing anything that's better than what I (and most builders) have in mine. |
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Post by copperx on May 4, 2023 13:33:39 GMT -6
Yup, like the late-revision 1176'es we did - needed these desperately for our newly-built studio four for compatibility, but nobody made them at the time (!) Then later Purple took up making them and rest is history.. /Jakob E. Wow, glad to see you here! I will take the opportunity to ask: can the GSSL circuit be modified easily to have a sharper knee, like the SSL X-Logic? Or would is require an entirely different circuit? |
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gyraf
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Post by gyraf on May 5, 2023 5:25:52 GMT -6
Haven't tried, but perhaps something as simple as a schottky diode (BAT42?) in stead of the 1N4148 feeding the attack/release circuit from pin14 of the TL074?
/Jakob E.
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Post by EmRR on May 5, 2023 8:21:36 GMT -6
Haven't tried, but perhaps something as simple as a schottky diode (BAT42?) in stead of the 1N4148 feeding the attack/release circuit from pin14 of the TL074? /Jakob E. I have a better vision of this with tube comps. Is it a question of how various versions establish operating levels at the side chain? I’d have to look for instance at the sb4001 again to see if it’s THAT interface is -6 in +6 out, which would move internal trim points. Jakob, are any of those first DIY still in service and on hand? Be cool to see a picture or two. Closest I could guess is the silver stamped face with edgewise meter in your website PDF. |
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