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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 3, 2023 23:41:24 GMT -6
The ones that all the "vintage" plug-ins "model". I hate to say this, but I've come around to the @tomegatherion view. It's all just clippers. All those "vintage-y" sounds are just modeling what happens when you run out of headroom. Throw a clipper on there and you've got the same thing. Don't get me wrong. I still like pushing the hardware and making it grind. But in the digital realm? We're all just looking for a signal that's out of headroom. You don't need to spend $10k for that. Geez... before you know it I'm going to be pushing Tokyo Dawn on everybody. Reaper must be the gateway drug. I think I'm not getting your point. Are you talking about the plugin "preamps" such as the UAD 1073? If so, I concur. Underneath it all it's just clippers. Or are you saying that characterful analog preamps can be replicated with clipping in the digital realm? Or that the sound of those preamps is what happens when you run out of headroom? The former. The digital realm really is mostly just clippers. The "pushing the hardware and making it grind" part is more complex. But the vintage stuff (analog) that we all love? Half of it is just that it didn't have much head room. That's what we like.
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Post by collywobble on Apr 4, 2023 5:21:11 GMT -6
This raises the question: what kind of preamps have little headroom? Quite a few desktop audio interfaces lack headroom on the mic inputs, though it's usually the converter alignment rather than the preamp itself that is the issue. The Neve 88M is a good example. Because the minimum gain on the mic input is +21dB, the hottest mic signal you can feed it before the converter clips is -3dBu. Fine for speech. Possibly less so for drums.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2023 12:51:30 GMT -6
This raises the question: what kind of preamps have little headroom? The ones that all the "vintage" plug-ins "model". I hate to say this, but I've come around to the @tomegatherion view. It's all just clippers. All those "vintage-y" sounds are just modeling what happens when you run out of headroom. Throw a clipper on there and you've got the same thing. Don't get me wrong. I still like pushing the hardware and making it grind. But in the digital realm? We're all just looking for a signal that's out of headroom. You don't need to spend $10k for that. Geez... before you know it I'm going to be pushing Tokyo Dawn on everybody. Reaper must be the gateway drug. When? Older preamps tend to have more usable headroom than common pres today (mostly opamps and IC preamp chip based) because they were intended to amplify ribbons and not bring up noise in the old tape formulation and vinyl eras. The ones with low headroom like Helios and the v72 were always controversial as were the ones that needed pads. The “colored gear” is not clipping. It has non-linearities like all analog circuits do. And even the hard voltage clipping, diode clippers, tube clipping, etc sound different. Analog gear only generally clips you when you clip the voltage rails of the power supply and even then will be brief, not that harsh on transients usually, just annoying, and not have foldback usually unlike digital clipping. Rms clipping the voltage rails, where they usually hard clip, sounds fucking awful on almost everything. The clipping seem in most popular music masters is awful pcm clipping and then analog clipping from intersample peaks. Your converters can start soft clipping even at -1 dbfs on some equipment. Others will hard clip at 0dbfs. Primitive distortion plugins tries to approximate analog through polynomial wave shapes and these can sound okay if done well like the Oxford Inflator/Warmth/Enhance or Kazrog True Iron but these are not analog non-linearities. Hear tone of Arousor’s wave shaper vs Distressor’s shunted ICs. You can’t built a pure polynomial wave shaper in analog. Run colored equipment not a deliberate shitbox (like most tube revival gear) into an analyzer and it will have mostly linear gain and won’t wave shape until you hit it really hot! Even wave shaping functions that only produce low order, even or odd harmonics with sine tones will produce the other when fed with any asymmetrical wave forms. And intermodulation distortion. And a lot of color gear can’t be modeled with waveshapers because the distortion is not merely level and frequency dependent so any sort of dynamic convolution like Acustica, Nebula, IK, and Kit, and all the convolution reverb attempts won’t sound right and “alive” but they hope to capture the black box of gear they don’t have access to the designs of or don’t care to emulate the circuitry or function of as best they can! No itb emulation dares to emulate thermal distortion, which is a huge issue in even modern, supposedly clean gear! Crank something multichannel with all inputs for hours and tell me it sounds the same as when just turned on. A ton of the time it doesn’t. Then we have the compressor emulations and recreations and god are they usually wtf? They don’t have access to the original specs most of the time or they have the circuit diagrams but not the algorithms and filters. And if they do, don’t care to make them work like the hardware. Take emulations. You can get everything from a pretty smooth dynamics processor like the Glue and the DDMF Magic Death Eyes to wtf monstrosities like Waves SSL, pretty much every 1176 and dbx 160 model, the SSL Native and Waves Channel Compressor, etc. UAD didn’t even succeed in reverse engineering the classic Sony / Sonnox Oxford plugs and people expect them to match hardware from 50 years ago and they try and don’t care if they fail because people pay hundreds for their software and thousands for hardware! I’d rather they make another thing like the sicko 4-710 pre than try to make more 1176 or modernize a 610 but that wouldn’t sell as much.
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Post by svart on Apr 4, 2023 13:02:05 GMT -6
This raises the question: what kind of preamps have little headroom? The ones that all the "vintage" plug-ins "model". I hate to say this, but I've come around to the @tomegatherion view. It's all just clippers. All those "vintage-y" sounds are just modeling what happens when you run out of headroom. Throw a clipper on there and you've got the same thing. Don't get me wrong. I still like pushing the hardware and making it grind. But in the digital realm? We're all just looking for a signal that's out of headroom. You don't need to spend $10k for that. Geez... before you know it I'm going to be pushing Tokyo Dawn on everybody. Reaper must be the gateway drug. LOL
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 4, 2023 13:16:54 GMT -6
The ones that all the "vintage" plug-ins "model". I hate to say this, but I've come around to the @tomegatherion view. It's all just clippers. All those "vintage-y" sounds are just modeling what happens when you run out of headroom. Throw a clipper on there and you've got the same thing. Don't get me wrong. I still like pushing the hardware and making it grind. But in the digital realm? We're all just looking for a signal that's out of headroom. You don't need to spend $10k for that. Geez... before you know it I'm going to be pushing Tokyo Dawn on everybody. Reaper must be the gateway drug. When? Older preamps tend to have more usable headroom than common pres today (mostly opamps and IC preamp chip based) because they were intended to amplify ribbons and not bring up noise in the old tape formulation and vinyl eras. The ones with low headroom like Helios and the v72 were always controversial as were the ones that needed pads. The “colored gear” is not clipping. It has non-linearities like all analog circuits do. And even the hard voltage clipping, diode clippers, tube clipping, etc sound different. Analog gear only generally clips you when you clip the voltage rails of the power supply and even then will be brief, not that harsh on transients usually, just annoying, and not have foldback usually unlike digital clipping. Rms clipping the voltage rails, where they usually hard clip, sounds fucking awful on almost everything. The clipping seem in most popular music masters is awful pcm clipping and then analog clipping from intersample peaks. Your converters can start soft clipping even at -1 dbfs on some equipment. Others will hard clip at 0dbfs. Primitive distortion plugins tries to approximate analog through polynomial wave shapes and these can sound okay if done well like the Oxford Inflator/Warmth/Enhance or Kazrog True Iron but these are not analog non-linearities. Hear tone of Arousor’s wave shaper vs Distressor’s shunted ICs. You can’t built a pure polynomial wave shaper in analog. Run colored equipment not a deliberate shitbox (like most tube revival gear) into an analyzer and it will have mostly linear gain and won’t wave shape until you hit it really hot! Even wave shaping functions that only produce low order, even or odd harmonics with sine tones will produce the other when fed with any asymmetrical wave forms. And intermodulation distortion. And a lot of color gear can’t be modeled with waveshapers because the distortion is not merely level and frequency dependent so any sort of dynamic convolution like Acustica, Nebula, IK, and Kit, and all the convolution reverb attempts won’t sound right and “alive” but they hope to capture the black box of gear they don’t have access to the designs of or don’t care to emulate the circuitry or function of as best they can! No itb emulation dares to emulate thermal distortion, which is a huge issue in even modern, supposedly clean gear! Crank something multichannel with all inputs for hours and tell me it sounds the same as when just turned on. A ton of the time it doesn’t. Then we have the compressor emulations and recreations and god are they usually wtf? They don’t have access to the original specs most of the time or they have the circuit diagrams but not the algorithms and filters. And if they do, don’t care to make them work like the hardware. Take emulations. You can get everything from a pretty smooth dynamics processor like the Glue and the DDMF Magic Death Eyes to wtf monstrosities like Waves SSL, pretty much every 1176 and dbx 160 model, the SSL Native and Waves Channel Compressor, etc. UAD didn’t even succeed in reverse engineering the classic Sony / Sonnox Oxford plugs and people expect them to match hardware from 50 years ago and they try and don’t care if they fail because people pay hundreds for their software and thousands for hardware! I’d rather they make another thing like the sicko 4-710 pre than try to make more 1176 or modernize a 610 but that wouldn’t sell as much. I'm not really talking about colored gear. I'm talking about the sound you hear on Motown records or Little Richard records or whatever. A lot of it is just the sound of stuff being tracked really hot and pushing the various devices (pre amps, tape, etc) in the signal chain. Which is another way of saying running out of headroom.
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Post by michaelcleary on Apr 4, 2023 17:09:53 GMT -6
couple of vids here. 1st one has samples.
2nd is mostly features.
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Post by peterhess on Apr 4, 2023 17:17:15 GMT -6
Dan, you’re a 4-710 fan? Tell me about what you dig? (I like it too, just curiousity).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2023 18:34:37 GMT -6
Dan, you’re a 4-710 fan? Tell me about what you dig? (I like it too, just curiousity). Just makes drums big and distorted. The best UA product.
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Post by niklas1073 on Apr 5, 2023 1:44:56 GMT -6
Dan, you’re a 4-710 fan? Tell me about what you dig? (I like it too, just curiousity). Just makes drums big and distorted. The best UA product. I agree with you. I also run it on drums. Have it as a classic glyn johns setup on big drums tuned high. And it delivers every time. I also use it as a central point in my studio where i convert and run all my additional 4 pres thru. A great piece.
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Post by michaelcleary on Apr 5, 2023 9:06:10 GMT -6
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Post by chessparov on Apr 5, 2023 10:10:38 GMT -6
Do I sense a Neumann vs. Neve Interface smackdown in the works? Chris
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 5, 2023 13:17:29 GMT -6
Just makes drums big and distorted. The best UA product. I agree with you. I also run it on drums. Have it as a classic glyn johns setup on big drums tuned high. And it delivers every time. I also use it as a central point in my studio where i convert and run all my additional 4 pres thru. A great piece. Same use here. Very versatile.
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Post by chessparov on Apr 5, 2023 13:39:43 GMT -6
How do you like the 710 on vocals then? (I like the UA 610 Solo) Thanks, Chris
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Post by niklas1073 on Apr 5, 2023 13:52:00 GMT -6
How do you like the 710 on vocals then? (I like the UA 610 Solo) Thanks, Chris Not sure if this was aimed for gravesnumber9, but I chime in with my thoughts too. I used to use it for everything when it was still my only serious outboard gear. It’s great on vocals, really nice with ribbons. Guitars, great. I feel it has very wide usage. The reason it only serves for drums in my setup now is that ive tuned in my drum chain with it, so I tend to let it stay that way. I havnt a/b:d it with a 610 ever since i dont have one. As i understand it’s not the same, but i would believe, the 710 in tube mode live in the same world to some extent.
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Post by chessparov on Apr 5, 2023 15:28:55 GMT -6
Thanks! I like the "similar-ish" UA Volt "Vintage Button" sometimes. (These seem to be a potential Gateway Drug ) Chris
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Post by recordingengineer on Apr 5, 2023 15:41:42 GMT -6
Dan, you’re a 4-710 fan? Tell me about what you dig? (I like it too, just curiousity). Just makes drums big and distorted. The best UA product. I’ve only ever tried it on a bass amp and it worked well! On what drums do you use it on; snare kick, toms, OH, etc.?
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 5, 2023 20:41:55 GMT -6
It's just a rebranded Anubis but with USB as it's main connection and adat for expansion vs Raven (networked).
It will not be cheap I'm sure. And it'll sound amazing. The Anubis is great. All mergings stuff is great
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2023 20:51:17 GMT -6
Just makes drums big and distorted. The best UA product. I’ve only ever tried it on a bass amp and it worked well! On what drums do you use it on; snare kick, toms, OH, etc.? See pm. All fat distorted smeary smashed drums. Not for fast metal. If I want fat there, I want lower fi fat.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Apr 5, 2023 21:10:20 GMT -6
It's just a rebranded Anubis but with USB as it's main connection and adat for expansion vs Raven (networked). It will not be cheap I'm sure. And it'll sound amazing. The Anubis is great. All mergings stuff is great The drivers will be the important part.
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Post by michaelcleary on Apr 5, 2023 21:33:10 GMT -6
It's just a rebranded Anubis but with USB as it's main connection and adat for expansion vs Raven (networked). It will not be cheap I'm sure. And it'll sound amazing. The Anubis is great. All mergings stuff is great It's less expensive then the Anubis.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 5, 2023 21:33:24 GMT -6
It's just a rebranded Anubis but with USB as it's main connection and adat for expansion vs Raven (networked). It will not be cheap I'm sure. And it'll sound amazing. The Anubis is great. All mergings stuff is great The drivers will be the important part. Very true. That if anything is one of the nicest things about the USB interface. It should be easy to use. Compared to mergings stuff which isn't hard but not always the most straight forward. This is the main reason those of us that are in the pyramix world(merging Technologies DAW) it has good potential for a secondary unit to have on hand for certain tasks.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 5, 2023 21:35:53 GMT -6
It's just a rebranded Anubis but with USB as it's main connection and adat for expansion vs Raven (networked). It will not be cheap I'm sure. And it'll sound amazing. The Anubis is great. All mergings stuff is great It's less expensive then the Anubis. Not really. It's about the same as an Anubis Pro. It's cheaper than an Anubis Premium. Which does DXD resolution. The pro does not and neither does the Mt 48
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Post by michaelcleary on Apr 6, 2023 15:32:38 GMT -6
It's less expensive then the Anubis. Not really. It's about the same as an Anubis Pro. It's cheaper than an Anubis Premium. Which does DXD resolution. The pro does not and neither does the Mt 48 Anubis Pro is 2199.00. MT 48 is 1850.00 so slightly less.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 7, 2023 1:22:29 GMT -6
Not really. It's about the same as an Anubis Pro. It's cheaper than an Anubis Premium. Which does DXD resolution. The pro does not and neither does the Mt 48 Anubis Pro is 2199.00. MT 48 is 1850.00 so slightly less. VK has the Anubis Pro for 1999. Pretty similar. Differences make sense at that point cost wise being 150 different.
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Post by sirthought on Jun 20, 2023 17:01:43 GMT -6
couple of vids here. 1st one has samples. 2nd is mostly features. Hi Michael, Are you able to point me in the direction of what choices exist for preamp expansion via RAVENNA/AES67? I see Merging Hapi and Horus, but those seem expensive if you are just looking to add 16 preamps.You can only add 8 channels via ADAT on the MT 48. I don't know anything about the AES67 and what all it can talk to. Thanks.
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