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Post by copperx on Mar 31, 2023 0:18:58 GMT -6
I sat in on a session at BBC Maida Vale once. The engineer there explained that he thought of the centre of the kit as being an imaginary line running through the middle of the snare drum and the impact point of the kick drum beater. So placed his overheads either side of that line, or used a stereo mic positioned directly on the line. I was convinced and I've done the same ever since, though it doesn't always mean the kick and snare sound exactly centred in the overheads. That makes a lot of sense. I'm curious to know what happens phase wise with this setup. Do you take measurements and make sure the snare and the kick drum are at the same distance to the mic diaphragms? Or is it just a rough estimate? |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 31, 2023 2:24:09 GMT -6
Same reason the lead vocal isn't off centre!
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Post by collywobble on Mar 31, 2023 4:46:27 GMT -6
That makes a lot of sense. I'm curious to know what happens phase wise with this setup. Do you take measurements and make sure the snare and the kick drum are at the same distance to the mic diaphragms? Or is it just a rough estimate? At Maida Vale they used an AKG C24 as a stereo overhead, rather than a spaced pair, so there were no phase issues. I guess that's important when the primary focus is radio. I'm not a fan of very wide stereo drum overheads, so I generally follow that lead and use a single point stereo mic set to something like Blumlein or crossed hypercardioids depending on the room. If I do use a spaced pair I'll try to make sure they're both the same distance from the snare. Usually that means, looking at it from the drummer's perspective, one mic is somewhere behind the snare drum and to the left of the kick drum, while the other is slightly lower down and somewhere near the drummer's right shoulder. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 31, 2023 6:30:12 GMT -6
That makes a lot of sense. I'm curious to know what happens phase wise with this setup. Do you take measurements and make sure the snare and the kick drum are at the same distance to the mic diaphragms? Or is it just a rough estimate? At Maida Vale they used an AKG C24 as a stereo overhead, rather than a spaced pair, so there were no phase issues. I guess that's important when the primary focus is radio. I'm not a fan of very wide stereo drum overheads, so I generally follow that lead and use a single point stereo mic set to something like Blumlein or crossed hypercardioids depending on the room. If I do use a spaced pair I'll try to make sure they're both the same distance from the snare. Usually that means, looking at it from the drummer's perspective, one mic is somewhere behind the snare drum and to the left of the kick drum, while the other is slightly lower down and somewhere near the drummer's right shoulder. Agreed on wide drums. To my ears and taste hi-hats sound better panned way closer to the centre than you would imagine would sound good, something only really possible when you're programming drums. |
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Post by EmRR on Mar 31, 2023 14:30:38 GMT -6
I sat in on a session at BBC Maida Vale once. The engineer there explained that he thought of the centre of the kit as being an imaginary line running through the middle of the snare drum and the impact point of the kick drum beater. So placed his overheads either side of that line, or used a stereo mic positioned directly on the line. I was convinced and I've done the same ever since, though it doesn't always mean the kick and snare sound exactly centred in the overheads. I have tried this enough times, sometimes it's ok, but other layouts put the rest of the kit and the cymbals in highly non-symmetrical locations, so it's just shifted "the problem". |
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Post by Ward on Apr 3, 2023 15:54:54 GMT -6
SNIP To my ears and taste hi-hats sound better panned way closer to the centre than you would imagine would sound good, something only really possible when you're programming drums. How does one even effectively pan hats anywhere? They go everywhere! They're like cats . . . |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 3, 2023 22:29:43 GMT -6
SNIP To my ears and taste hi-hats sound better panned way closer to the centre than you would imagine would sound good, something only really possible when you're programming drums. How does one even effectively pan hats anywhere? They go everywhere! They're like cats . . . Well thehightenor kind of nailed it already... "something only really possible when you're programming drums." I'm probably swimming upstream here but more and more I'm starting to like mono drums. Or at least closer to it. I think I enjoy the drum performance more if I hear it as "one instrument." It sure solves a whole lot of problems in one fell swoop. I moved to mono keys (even organ in most cases) a long time ago, I guess this is the logical progression. EDIT - "Keys" to me means piano or mechanical keyboards. Not talking about synth sounds. All bets are off on synth IMO. |
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Post by drumsound on Apr 4, 2023 7:43:15 GMT -6
SNIP To my ears and taste hi-hats sound better panned way closer to the centre than you would imagine would sound good, something only really possible when you're programming drums. How does one even effectively pan hats anywhere? They go everywhere! They're like cats . . . Oddly enough, because they go everywhere is why I prefer to mic them. You can get a good attack that you can put and define the stereo picture of the drums a little easier with a hat mic. |
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Post by svart on Apr 4, 2023 8:25:09 GMT -6
Because it's annoying.. Because it's not necessary..
Anyway, if you're doing a lot of overhead-centric drum mixing, there is a big possibility that they're not centered over the snare anyway, so the mix will pull slightly off center.
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 5, 2023 11:05:35 GMT -6
SNIP To my ears and taste hi-hats sound better panned way closer to the centre than you would imagine would sound good, something only really possible when you're programming drums. How does one even effectively pan hats anywhere? They go everywhere! They're like cats . . . Roll off the very toppy top of your overheads plus mic the hihat, pan it, and push it up a little (it doesn't have to be rippin' loud) so it helps skew the hat location psychoacoustically. I place the hat mic closer than the overhead is and leave it a little brighter in the mix. It really ends up defining the location that way - it's brighter and earlier than the related sound in the overhead - and then we hear it develop into the overheads and the rooms and become as spacious as the rest of the drum mix. I treat ride cymbals the same way. My overheads kind of shy away from those sources so the combo of the spot mics on hat/ride plus the decreased prominence in overheads equals a little freedom in placement. I also do the "line connecting kick/snare is the middle" overheads. If I need a compact kit I'll use an x/y over that line moving along that line to get the balance I'm looking for. If I need more spread I'll do a spaced pair where - essentially - the mics end up over the outside rim of the rack tom and over the center-ish of the floor tom (in a 1-up-1-down setup). Measure to be in phase/equidistant with snare (kick is normally pretty prominently coming from close mics and a mono room so the little bit of kick potentially slightly off center in overheads isn't a problem). Depending on the kit sometimes the floor tom side overhead will be a little closer to the ground than the rack tom side. Angle the mics to prefer what I want them to prefer (oftentimes away from the snare a little to keep the snare transient from being too crazy loud in the overheads) and go up/down with the whole overhead setup if I need to focus more/less on cymbals. Worth noting: I tend to mix my room mics pretty loud compared to my overheads. My room often ends up having kick a little louder in one mic than in the other. Same with snares but mostly opposite the kick. That slight off-centering from a non-symmetrical room sounds to me a little like panning something 3 or 6%. Something I've only tried a few times (but chickened out each time and still put up overheads as backups anyway) is not even going with overheads and just doing pairs of room mics to gather the whole kit. I'm sure that pulled-off-center thing from the room mics would be even more prominent in that case even with loud close mics. But I'm not looking for pulled-off-center kicks/snares. Most of my favorite records from the last bunch of years (and my clients are all trying to make records that sound modern so that's my touchstone) are all kick and snare in the middle. Design the kick/snare sounds to let the prominent parts of the vocal come through and you're golden! |
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Post by Ward on Apr 5, 2023 12:11:12 GMT -6
My somewhat hyperbolic humor has escaped a few folks in this thread. I mic hats with a 251, just like drbill and dan. i mean, 201. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 5, 2023 14:00:06 GMT -6
I mic hats with a 251, just like drbill and dan . Seriously. Is there any other way? |
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Post by Ward on Apr 5, 2023 14:21:57 GMT -6
I mic hats with a 251, just like drbill and dan . Seriously. Is there any other way? Yes, for those who are poor and/or are amateurs! |
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Post by earlevel on Apr 5, 2023 14:44:05 GMT -6
I don't have an answer, but in Collective Soul's "Where The River Flows" from the 90s (mixed by Bob Clearmountain), the snare is totally 100% to the left on verses, and centered on the choruses; when I was a teenager I thought it was the most brilliant thing I had ever heard. Well, the entire drum kit is on the left, correct? (See how I avoided "right?"). And the snare echo on the right. Then the mono centered kit on the chorus. Interesting effect. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Apr 5, 2023 16:06:27 GMT -6
I’ve always prioritised the snare when micing the drum kit. Sometimes I pan kick and bass very slightly apart and the hat gets lined up with the overheads wherever that may be. The only time I decentralise the snare is if it gets in the way of the vocal. I never get any phase problems.
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