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Post by bossanova on Mar 27, 2023 21:32:05 GMT -6
Just a curiosity. I can’t think of too many specific examples but I remember Annie Lennox’s first two albums have the snare mixed off center to varying degrees on several tracks to clear space for the vocal, and I vaguely remember hearing it experimented with elsewhere during the early 90s, as well as in the post-LCR 70s, though I think that might have been a quirk of some overhead setups as anything else. By the late 90s there’s way more drum loops, etc, and we’re back to down the middle going all the way to today. Again, by my memory and experience.
I know there’s mono compatibility and everything but a slight shift in either direction doesn’t usually make a huge difference there. I always think it’s akin to a cheat code to opening space up for a vocal or other instrument in the middle.
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Post by copperx on Mar 27, 2023 22:05:41 GMT -6
Just a curiosity. I can’t think of too many specific examples but I remember Annie Lennox’s first two albums have the snare mixed off center to varying degrees on several tracks to clear space for the vocal, and I vaguely remember hearing it experimented with elsewhere during the early 90s, as well as in the post-LCR 70s, though I think that might have been a quirk of some overhead setups as anything else. By the late 90s there’s way more drum loops, etc, and we’re back to down the middle going all the way to today. Again, by my memory and experience. I know there’s mono compatibility and everything but a slight shift in either direction doesn’t usually make a huge difference there. I always think it’s akin to a cheat code to opening space up for a vocal or other instrument in the middle. I don't have an answer, but in Collective Soul's "Where The River Flows" from the 90s (mixed by Bob Clearmountain), the snare is totally 100% to the left on verses, and centered on the choruses; when I was a teenager I thought it was the most brilliant thing I had ever heard. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 27, 2023 22:08:43 GMT -6
The snare is the center of the drumset, literally and figuratively.
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Post by robo on Mar 27, 2023 22:11:56 GMT -6
1) not mono compatible
2) unnatural/breaks the illusion of hearing a performance
3) you lose headroom with uneven peaks on one side
4) modern music is more beat oriented
Aside from those things, it is definitely a cool mix trick for the right track!
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Post by collywobble on Mar 28, 2023 2:04:45 GMT -6
Neil Young's 'Heart of Gold' has the snare panned left. I guess that did OK.
Why would it not be mono compatible?
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Post by Ward on Mar 28, 2023 6:22:15 GMT -6
I use two top of snare mics. Usually an AKG C460/ck1 head AND a Telefunken M80 dynamic (sometimes a km84 and a beta 57 or a Beyer 201) and in the mix from playback to final mix one is 6 degrees left and one is 6 degrees right. Not for stereo effects of any sort but to broaden the scope of the sound of the snare.
But snare bleeds into everything anyhow… with your other close mics and overheads/fronts/rooms.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 7:03:12 GMT -6
Not any sort of expert on rock mixing, but I'd suspect it's because there's nothing to balance the snare musically on the other side of center. Its energy is primarily midrange/top and it's playing a big chunk of the time. You might balance it a little with a small tom on the other side, but they really live in different frequency slots. I suspect the listener will hear a slight bias toward whichever side you've got the snare panned towards. If the music has some Latin characteristic, such as bongos or small conga, you might be able to find something you can place on the opposite side of the snare and then get some clarity in the mix.
We have similar issues in the classical world, although the determination is made by the way the musicians are seated. For example, the more traditional seating of orchestral strings places violins on the left, violas, celli and basses toward the right. You'll often hear that as a bias toward the left, since violins often play in a more sensitive part of your hearing range. The energy distribution may actually be quite even across the soundstage, but that's not always the way you hear it. A less-common seating will place the two violin sections on opposite sides of the stage. I generally find this acoustically preferable, but I don't get to make the rules. If you're mixing rock, you do get to make the rules.
So, while it might be a stretch, I think the panned snare may cause the same phenominom in the way you hear a mix.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 28, 2023 7:43:53 GMT -6
It's always off center with any sort of minimalist approach lacking close mics. If it's all cheated so it is center, then the rest is more heavily off to one side. If there's have reflections from a small room, kick and/or snare will weight to one side.
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Post by robo on Mar 28, 2023 9:42:19 GMT -6
Neil Young's 'Heart of Gold' has the snare panned left. I guess that did OK. Why would it not be mono compatible? Wouldn’t panning it make it lower when summed to mono? What I should have said is it isn’t compatible with wide stereo (like in a home system, restaurants, etc). It can also be annoying in headphones and in the car - like 1960’s stereo mixes. I’m thinking of more overt panning rather than “slightly” off center. I think that can be great in less beat-oriented music, like jangly rock or folk where you’ve got bright strummed instruments doing a lot of rhythmic work. |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 28, 2023 9:52:12 GMT -6
The snare is the center of the drumset, literally and figuratively. If the snare is in the center then where is the kick? They can't both be. At least I've never seen a kit with both lined up that way. When I sit at a drum set the snare is slightly to my left and the kick is slightly to my right. From audience perspective it's opposite, and that's how I often mix them - just 10% L and R. It leaves slightly more space for the bass and vocal in the center. Probably doesn't matter much though. |
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Post by bossanova on Mar 28, 2023 10:26:30 GMT -6
I know the Neil Young record also has a ton of bleed from everything being in the same room including vocals, so that could affect the positioning.
"Heart of Gold" in particular is famous for the snare sound supposedly falling apart without/being "made" by the bleed from Neil's vocal mic.
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Post by drumsound on Mar 28, 2023 11:15:55 GMT -6
The snare is the center of the drumset, literally and figuratively. If the snare is in the center then where is the kick? They can't both be. At least I've never seen a kit with both lined up that way. When I sit at a drum set the snare is slightly to my left and the kick is slightly to my right. From audience perspective it's opposite, and that's how I often mix them - just 10% L and R. It leaves slightly more space for the bass and vocal in the center. Probably doesn't matter much though. I setup and sit with the snare literally lined up with the middle of my body. That does put the bass drum slightly right. Being as how low end is but structurally, and commonly the foundation I like to mix it center as well. I set my overheads to reflect the line bisecting the snare and bass drum as center, thus keeping those instruments centered in their image. I feel the snare is much more important than the BD, because it is something that always translates, even on small speakers, and throughout the decades of recording. You can often define an era by snare sound. The snare is where the dance it. |
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Post by copperx on Mar 28, 2023 11:46:08 GMT -6
Regarding Collective Souls' "Where the river flows", can somebody explain to me why does it work so well in the song to have the snare off center? Is it because of the rhythm? Because the lyrics are sparse?
Placing the snare in the center would worsen the mix. But I can't elucidate why.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 28, 2023 12:48:45 GMT -6
I feel the snare is much more important than the BD, because it is something that always translates, even on small speakers, and throughout the decades of recording. You can often define an era by snare sound. The snare is where the dance it. Agreed that the snare is more important than the BD, but the vocal is more important than the snare, so takes center stage. But plenty of great mixes are whichever way. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 28, 2023 20:01:56 GMT -6
I feel the snare is much more important than the BD, because it is something that always translates, even on small speakers, and throughout the decades of recording. You can often define an era by snare sound. The snare is where the dance it. Agreed that the snare is more important than the BD, but the vocal is more important than the snare, so takes center stage. But plenty of great mixes are whichever way. Sure, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing allowed in the center. |
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Post by christopher on Mar 28, 2023 20:30:45 GMT -6
Regarding Collective Souls' "Where the river flows", can somebody explain to me why does it work so well in the song to have the snare off center? Is it because of the rhythm? Because the lyrics are sparse? Placing the snare in the center would worsen the mix. But I can't elucidate why. I saw the comment and had to check it out. First thing I wanted to know when I started recording, was how do they pull off hard panned snares and etc, anything experimental. Nobody I hired ever wanted to try it. I’m like the only guy on earth who loves early stereo,.. probably because I listened extremely ear bleeding loud one time, after that I was hooked haha. Well turns out it’s not easy to do at all! Bleed was the 60’s friend. That was the secret sauce, hard panned mics.. bleed is also a short reverb when nobody is performing into the mic. Back to this track.. Right away it hit me that the guitars and vocals are the superstar of the track, - they are so massive and stereo. The drums in that part are like a background synth supporting the ultra massive guitars and vocals. The way he made it work though, instead of dulling it out like a string /pad section.. something they did in the 60s and 70s quite a bit with EMT plates or tape slap echo.. feed the wet effect on the opposite hard pan, with enough highs to balance the image. It makes me wonder.. was this a producer choice that Bob Clearmountain honored? Or was this BC’s idea? It works really well, I’d imagine there would have been dialog with band/producer? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 28, 2023 22:03:13 GMT -6
I saw the comment and had to check it out. First thing I wanted to know when I started recording, was how do they pull off hard panned snares and etc, anything experimental. Nobody I hired ever wanted to try it. I’m like the only guy on earth who loves early stereo,.. probably because I listened extremely ear bleeding loud one time, after that I was hooked haha. [snip] I'm in this camp too. So there's at least two of us. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 29, 2023 9:27:57 GMT -6
Regarding Collective Souls' "Where the river flows", can somebody explain to me why does it work so well in the song to have the snare off center? Is it because of the rhythm? Because the lyrics are sparse? Placing the snare in the center would worsen the mix. But I can't elucidate why. I wasn't familiar with the song, so I just went a listened (though I'll admit I didn't get to the end). Part of why it works is the delay on the other side. We get the main impact on the left and the delay/ambience on the right, kind of like EVH's guitar on the early records. It's also a pretty mechanical sounding part. Is it from their 1st record that used an SR16? If it were something that's was busier, even something with ghost notes it might not be the same. AND it's one song. It's not an entire record. |
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Post by timcampbell on Mar 29, 2023 12:08:07 GMT -6
I don't know how much it has to do with what medium we are talking about or from what era but for vinyl records the bass and bass drum should be centered otherwise the cutter cuts an asymetrical groove causing problems for the needle reading it.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 30, 2023 12:44:28 GMT -6
The snare is the center of the drumset, literally and figuratively. If the snare is in the center then where is the kick? They can't both be. Really? Who sez?
Do you listen with your ears or your eyes? In general, unless the kick is WAayy off center - like in a double kick set, it usually sounds straight up the middle. And the snare probably because of its percussive dominance, is generally up the center as well, at least psychologically.
And because they live in different areas of the spectrum they can share the space quite well.
Also, if you have any plans to release in vinyl, you need to put kicks up center.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Mar 30, 2023 12:48:19 GMT -6
If the snare is in the center then where is the kick? They can't both be. Really? Who sez?
Do you listen with your ears or your eyes? In general, unless the kick is WAayy off center - like in a double kick set, it usually sounds straight up the middle. And the snare probably because of its percussive dominance, is generally up the center as well, at least psychologically.
And because they live in different areas of the spectrum they can share the space quite well.
Also, if you have any plans to release in vinyl, you need to put kicks up center.
I meant on an actual drum set they're never lined up evenly. Have a listen to "Glass Onion" and tell The Beatles the kick has to be centered on vinyl. TBH I don't really have any problem with centered kick and snares. Just saying that it's OK to pan them and it can help sometimes. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 30, 2023 14:32:22 GMT -6
Really? Who sez?
Do you listen with your ears or your eyes? In general, unless the kick is WAayy off center - like in a double kick set, it usually sounds straight up the middle. And the snare probably because of its percussive dominance, is generally up the center as well, at least psychologically.
And because they live in different areas of the spectrum they can share the space quite well.
Also, if you have any plans to release in vinyl, you need to put kicks up center.
I meant on an actual drum set they're never lined up evenly. Have a listen to "Glass Onion" and tell The Beatles the kick has to be centered on vinyl. TBH I don't really have any problem with centered kick and snares. Just saying that it's OK to pan them and it can help sometimes. I set up overheads where the BD and SD are in the center of the stereo picture. I know I want them centering the record,so I make provisions for that. |
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Post by timcampbell on Mar 30, 2023 16:20:16 GMT -6
Have a listen to "Glass Onion" and tell The Beatles the kick has to be centered on vinyl. It means you can't have a lot of deep, bass energy off center. The bass drum on glass onion or most Beatles records doesn't usually
carry a lot of bass energy. Deep tones make deep grooves. The needle would fall to the bass heavy side. Bass is usually omnidirectional anyway.
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Post by collywobble on Mar 30, 2023 16:23:57 GMT -6
I sat in on a session at BBC Maida Vale once. The engineer there explained that he thought of the centre of the kit as being an imaginary line running through the middle of the snare drum and the impact point of the kick drum beater. So placed his overheads either side of that line, or used a stereo mic positioned directly on the line. I was convinced and I've done the same ever since, though it doesn't always mean the kick and snare sound exactly centred in the overheads.
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Post by drumsound on Mar 30, 2023 17:41:39 GMT -6
I sat in on a session at BBC Maida Vale once. The engineer there explained that he thought of the centre of the kit as being an imaginary line running through the middle of the snare drum and the impact point of the kick drum beater. So placed his overheads either side of that line, or used a stereo mic positioned directly on the line. I was convinced and I've done the same ever since, though it doesn't always mean the kick and snare sound exactly centred in the overheads. I've been doing that for years. |
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