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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 21, 2023 13:13:33 GMT -6
Thinking about experimenting with live streaming some stuff from our rehearsal space but I don't even know where to start. Like I so don't know where to start that I'm not even sure what to ask. Seems like this should be fairly simple right?
For starters I can take a mix out of our board into MOTU Ultralite and into my laptop. And then... what?
Let's assume that we have access to a variety of cameras and stuff (we do) but that we want to keep it simple initially (we do). Eventually we can bump up the quality with multiple cameras and switching and all of that, but I'd like to test this in the simplest way possible before adding high video production value complexities.
THE GOAL
We're getting these great rehearsal recordings pretty much live off of our board. Wouldn't it be fun to live stream those out with video even if nobody ever watched it?
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Post by notneeson on Mar 21, 2023 13:26:52 GMT -6
Thinking about experimenting with live streaming some stuff from our rehearsal space but I don't even know where to start. Like I so don't know where to start that I'm not even sure what to ask. Seems like this should be fairly simple right? For starters I can take a mix out of our board into MOTU Ultralite and into my laptop. And then... what? Let's assume that we have access to a variety of cameras and stuff (we do) but that we want to keep it simple initially (we do). Eventually we can bump up the quality with multiple cameras and switching and all of that, but I'd like to test this in the simplest way possible before adding high video production value complexities. THE GOAL We're getting these great rehearsal recordings pretty much live off of our board. Wouldn't it be fun to live stream those out with video even if nobody ever watched it? I have not, but my neighbor live streamed his record release during the pandemic and it went really well. He hired someone to manage the logistics, but if you think about it, from an audio standpoint it's status quo: you need a great stereo mix. There are folks here who no a lot more about video than I do, but my first question is, is this a single camera stream? I imagine it would be fairly simple to use a single camera that has stereo line in, and then connect the camera up to your computer. Or, perhaps you can simply have different connections for audio and video that get summed together on the streaming platform. I'd love to learn more. I did audio for a multi location streaming event at Google years ago, and the whole thing was run like a live broadcast with a control room where they switched feeds live. Not sure what the overall signal flow looked like though, I was literally sitting there with a Sound Devices box and a couple lavs. |
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Post by mcirish on Mar 21, 2023 13:28:44 GMT -6
I've thought about doing that exact same thing. I was going to try using 2 computers. One for the mix and the other to run OBS. I'd set it up as a live stream on YouTube. My only concern would be the sync between sound and video. So far with OBS, I have not had an issue but adding a second computer for the mix might cause issues. Seems like a pretty fun project though.
I'd just use a bunch of cell phones on tripods as video cameras and do a full mic'd up band.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 21, 2023 13:35:07 GMT -6
Thinking about experimenting with live streaming some stuff from our rehearsal space but I don't even know where to start. Like I so don't know where to start that I'm not even sure what to ask. Seems like this should be fairly simple right? For starters I can take a mix out of our board into MOTU Ultralite and into my laptop. And then... what? Let's assume that we have access to a variety of cameras and stuff (we do) but that we want to keep it simple initially (we do). Eventually we can bump up the quality with multiple cameras and switching and all of that, but I'd like to test this in the simplest way possible before adding high video production value complexities. THE GOAL We're getting these great rehearsal recordings pretty much live off of our board. Wouldn't it be fun to live stream those out with video even if nobody ever watched it? I have not, but my neighbor live streamed his record release during the pandemic and it went really well. He hired someone to manage the logistics, but if you think about it, from an audio standpoint it's status quo: you need a great stereo mix. There are folks here who no a lot more about video than I do, but my first question is, is this a single camera stream? I imagine it would be fairly simple to use a single camera that has stereo line in, and then connect the camera up to your computer. Or, perhaps you can simply have different connections for audio and video that get summed together on the streaming platform. I'd love to learn more. I did audio for a multi location streaming event at Google years ago, and the whole thing was run like a live broadcast with a control room where they switched feeds live. Not sure what the overall signal flow looked like though, I was literally sitting there with a Sound Devices box and a couple lavs. Eventually I want to use multiple cameras if this is something we really want to do, but yeah... my thought is I can already get pretty good audio so let's start there with a single camera feed. So in your scenario I would run the board straight into the cameral. Certainly makes things easier. But my hope is that there's some way I can sync the video from the camera with the converted audio from the Ultralight so that I don't have to rely on metering and conversion on a camera. But yeah... new to me. I've never tried to sync live, I've always just assumed I can line it up later so I've never really thought about it. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 21, 2023 13:37:41 GMT -6
I've thought about doing that exact same thing. I was going to try using 2 computers. One for the mix and the other to run OBS. I'd set it up as a live stream on YouTube. My only concern would be the sync between sound and video. So far with OBS, I have not had an issue but adding a second computer for the mix might cause issues. Seems like a pretty fun project though. I'd just use a bunch of cell phones on tripods as video cameras and do a full mic'd up band. Seems fun right? Even if nobody watched. Just curious why you would use separate laptops. I've never used OBS, is it really CPU intensive? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 21, 2023 13:58:20 GMT -6
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 21, 2023 14:02:51 GMT -6
There was a good thread on this a couple years back when jcoutu1 still had his old place and started live-streaming. Maybe search for that thread and see what comes up. Happy to help with discussion on this for your current use, but that thread might also bring up things that haven't crossed your mind yet. I personally think it's a super exciting thing, and I think it's awesome you're considering doing it. More later... |
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Post by sirthought on Mar 21, 2023 14:14:55 GMT -6
You could try to be like this band who live streamed on Facebook and used the delay in the stream to create loops within the song. Pretty creative.
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Post by brenta on Mar 21, 2023 15:27:03 GMT -6
Assuming you have a camera with an HDMI out, you could get a cheap HDMI capture card and OBS and you’re set on the video side. Your mixer outs to an interface would work for audio.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 21, 2023 15:31:39 GMT -6
Assuming you have a camera with an HDMI out, you could get a cheap HDMI capture card and OBS and you’re set on the video side. Your mixer outs to an interface would work for audio. How do you sync the audio though? Does OBS do that or allow an offset? |
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Post by keymod on Mar 21, 2023 16:28:28 GMT -6
The key is to sell online tickets for fans to watch. This is on our studio's bucket list. We would offer this as an option to recording clients, or to anyone who wants to do it.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 21, 2023 16:29:28 GMT -6
Assuming you have a camera with an HDMI out, you could get a cheap HDMI capture card and OBS and you’re set on the video side. Your mixer outs to an interface would work for audio. How do you sync the audio though? Does OBS do that or allow an offset? The absolute easiest way is to take the audio out from your mixer into the audio in on your camera, then send the video and audio already synced over HDMI to your capture device. That way it's automatic. There are some capture devices that allow you to take audio separately from video and then sync the two in the device preferences. I don't much like OBS myself, so I haven't used it for a long time, but I would imagine there's some way to have a sync offset in the software if you're getting video and audio from different sources. Again: the easiest way is to do it in-camera. |
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Post by mcirish on Mar 21, 2023 16:31:58 GMT -6
I use OBS every week for a live stream. I have a couple phones setup as cameras and a mic feed from a preamp via my audio interface. With the setup I have, I don't have any sync issues. The only reason I was thinking about two different computers was to allow more processing power for the mix. Might try it with just one computer though and see how it goes. I think the more outboard gear used, the better. Latency from plugins might cause issues.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 21, 2023 16:36:33 GMT -6
All right gents... I'm picking up this Roland Aerocaster to test out tonight. I like that it has XLR ins and some basic effects as well as the ability to take multiple cameras using Android or iOS devices wirelessly.
The million dollar question (actually $300) is whether or not the Wifi in the industrial park where we rehearse is up to snuff to pull this off. The Aerocaster uses Wifi to broadcast (of course) and to connect the cameras. That's great since it means fewer cable runs, but it could also put a strain on the Wifi.
We'll find out!
I will almost certainly test out other options as well but they had one of these at my local BanjoMart so I figure... why not give it a shot?
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Post by notneeson on Mar 21, 2023 17:03:09 GMT -6
I have not, but my neighbor live streamed his record release during the pandemic and it went really well. He hired someone to manage the logistics, but if you think about it, from an audio standpoint it's status quo: you need a great stereo mix. There are folks here who no a lot more about video than I do, but my first question is, is this a single camera stream? I imagine it would be fairly simple to use a single camera that has stereo line in, and then connect the camera up to your computer. Or, perhaps you can simply have different connections for audio and video that get summed together on the streaming platform. I'd love to learn more. I did audio for a multi location streaming event at Google years ago, and the whole thing was run like a live broadcast with a control room where they switched feeds live. Not sure what the overall signal flow looked like though, I was literally sitting there with a Sound Devices box and a couple lavs. Eventually I want to use multiple cameras if this is something we really want to do, but yeah... my thought is I can already get pretty good audio so let's start there with a single camera feed. So in your scenario I would run the board straight into the cameral. Certainly makes things easier. But my hope is that there's some way I can sync the video from the camera with the converted audio from the Ultralight so that I don't have to rely on metering and conversion on a camera. But yeah... new to me. I've never tried to sync live, I've always just assumed I can line it up later so I've never really thought about it. On quick glance I see A/V mixers that take XLR and a variety of video inputs. Would be cool to find one that took AES or SPDIF maybe, but probably overkill. the other mark williams probably knows this stuff inside out. Back to my earlier post, you can see how you would have one person mixing audio and another switching video in a more complex setup. EDIT: Oops, I somehow missed a bunch of posts and the fact that Mark was already in the thread. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 21, 2023 18:06:57 GMT -6
How do you sync the audio though? Does OBS do that or allow an offset? The absolute easiest way is to take the audio out from your mixer into the audio in on your camera, then send the video and audio already synced over HDMI to your capture device. That way it's automatic. There are some capture devices that allow you to take audio separately from video and then sync the two in the device preferences. I don't much like OBS myself, so I haven't used it for a long time, but I would imagine there's some way to have a sync offset in the software if you're getting video and audio from different sources. Again: the easiest way is to do it in-camera. Have you heard of anyone using the Aerocaster? I'm not married to it, just figured I'd try it out. I figure if it doesn't work for me I can return it or find another use for it. The big downside (and this is not small) is that it doesn't allow a normal HDMI connection so you can never use a pro camera. That's a significant downside because I have access to a lot "real" gear if I wanted to us it. But maybe convenience and lack of cable mess (in an already cable messed rehearsal space) makes up for it. |
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Post by Ned Ward on Mar 21, 2023 18:44:41 GMT -6
This looks like the way to go - multiple phones, and under $250 for the switcher (used). if you have a stereo aux send (or create one), you can have a separate stereo mix for the livestream vs. house. I'm tempted.... Thanks! |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 21, 2023 18:52:59 GMT -6
The absolute easiest way is to take the audio out from your mixer into the audio in on your camera, then send the video and audio already synced over HDMI to your capture device. That way it's automatic. There are some capture devices that allow you to take audio separately from video and then sync the two in the device preferences. I don't much like OBS myself, so I haven't used it for a long time, but I would imagine there's some way to have a sync offset in the software if you're getting video and audio from different sources. Again: the easiest way is to do it in-camera. Have you heard of anyone using the Aerocaster? I'm not married to it, just figured I'd try it out. I figure if it doesn't work for me I can return it or find another use for it. The big downside (and this is not small) is that it doesn't allow a normal HDMI connection so you can never use a pro camera. That's a significant downside because I have access to a lot "real" gear if I wanted to us it. But maybe convenience and lack of cable mess (in an already cable messed rehearsal space) makes up for it. Prior to your post, I'd never even heard of the Aerocaster. That's not to say it can't be good, I've just never heard of it or heard of anyone using it. It probably works at least all right, otherwise it would've developed a bad reputation. There are a couple of things I will say, though: - I personally wouldn't want to use a device that doesn't have either an HDMI or SDI input (and output, for that matter). Those are the standards that professional cameras use, and sure, you can do this using a smartphone, but I would want room to grow in case I started using more professional gear.
- I know people have to do it all the time, but I would HATE to rely on WiFi for a livestream. It is asking for trouble IMO. I would want to use hardwired ethernet, or absent that, I would probably prefer a cell phone network (5G or whatever). WiFi is just too inconsistent and can introduce buffering problems. I'm sure others may say they've never had a problem using WiFi, and that's great for them if so. I just wouldn't personally be comfortable doing it.
The biggest thing you can offer your followers/audience on those kinds of gigs is consistency. If you start when you say you're going to start, and if the network has plenty of bandwidth and doesn't stutter or buffer, people might come back next time. Anything you do that makes something not work well on the user/audience side becomes another reason for them not to tune in next time. If you enjoy this and it works out for your band and audience, you'll probably want to look at something like the Blackmagic ATEM Mini or Mini Pro ($300) or Mini Pro ISO ($500). There've been at least another couple versions released since the ISO -- Blackmagic puts those things out like crazy. I've got a Mini Pro, and it has worked flawlessly 4days/week for the last two years (?) with a variety of cameras. I say all that knowing that it might not make any sense to start out with something that. Maybe you see how things go, see how much you like doing livestreams (or dislike doing them), and if things are going well, you build up to something like an ATEM. Personally, I just don't see how the Aerocaster is of much benefit. You could get an Elgato on Amazon for like $50 and run your audio off your board into your camera, into the HDMI on the Elgato (which is hooked up to your laptop via USB) and use whatever live-streaming app you like, and you're off to the races. If you do it a few times and really enjoy it, get an ATEM Mini Pro, and you'd then have up to 4 camera angles if you want that many. Just my thoughts. There are certainly other viable ways to do it, though.  |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 21, 2023 19:50:33 GMT -6
I got the atem mini pro iso for my steaming. For my business though, it seemed to be a lot of hassle for VERY little reward. For the most part, bands didn’t want to cough up the dough for it. A couple streams were hosted by other groups (internet radio shows or whatever) and they had issues on their end. So I went through mountains of setup and planning to get things right all for it to sound like shit on their end. The other issue is that if you set up a can on a tripod, it’s boring. Having someone with a hint of knowledge moving a camera around will make a world of difference.
I had 1 actual day of streaming a festival that went well for the actual stream. Had like 5 acts in the studio that day. Changeover between acts was a massive pain. One group had their own sound guy and an in ear monitor system that they insisted on using. They also had 4 stereo backing tracks (guitars, synth, percussion, and vocals) they they needed to play with in addition to their actual instruments. Plus they were dicks. 😂😂 All the groups at least sounded good that day .
Anyway, I didn’t find it particularly useful for my business at the time. If it’s just for your band or whatever, go wild and have fun, but don’t expect much in terms of viewers or business coming out of it.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 22, 2023 6:51:12 GMT -6
Our livestream show has been using a SlingStudio Hub. 3 cameras, my mix is fed to the camera nearest the Sling. I think we’re about to upgrade to some Black Magic device. We have tried a couple other lower end things that had 'gotcha's' we couldn't deal with.
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Post by mcirish on Mar 22, 2023 7:56:39 GMT -6
man! that guy is a killer slide player. Blown away
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 22, 2023 8:40:04 GMT -6
Have you heard of anyone using the Aerocaster? I'm not married to it, just figured I'd try it out. I figure if it doesn't work for me I can return it or find another use for it. The big downside (and this is not small) is that it doesn't allow a normal HDMI connection so you can never use a pro camera. That's a significant downside because I have access to a lot "real" gear if I wanted to us it. But maybe convenience and lack of cable mess (in an already cable messed rehearsal space) makes up for it. Prior to your post, I'd never even heard of the Aerocaster. That's not to say it can't be good, I've just never heard of it or heard of anyone using it. It probably works at least all right, otherwise it would've developed a bad reputation. There are a couple of things I will say, though: - I personally wouldn't want to use a device that doesn't have either an HDMI or SDI input (and output, for that matter). Those are the standards that professional cameras use, and sure, you can do this using a smartphone, but I would want room to grow in case I started using more professional gear.
- I know people have to do it all the time, but I would HATE to rely on WiFi for a livestream. It is asking for trouble IMO. I would want to use hardwired ethernet, or absent that, I would probably prefer a cell phone network (5G or whatever). WiFi is just too inconsistent and can introduce buffering problems. I'm sure others may say they've never had a problem using WiFi, and that's great for them if so. I just wouldn't personally be comfortable doing it.
The biggest thing you can offer your followers/audience on those kinds of gigs is consistency. If you start when you say you're going to start, and if the network has plenty of bandwidth and doesn't stutter or buffer, people might come back next time. Anything you do that makes something not work well on the user/audience side becomes another reason for them not to tune in next time. If you enjoy this and it works out for your band and audience, you'll probably want to look at something like the Blackmagic ATEM Mini or Mini Pro ($300) or Mini Pro ISO ($500). There've been at least another couple versions released since the ISO -- Blackmagic puts those things out like crazy. I've got a Mini Pro, and it has worked flawlessly 4days/week for the last two years (?) with a variety of cameras. I say all that knowing that it might not make any sense to start out with something that. Maybe you see how things go, see how much you like doing livestreams (or dislike doing them), and if things are going well, you build up to something like an ATEM. Personally, I just don't see how the Aerocaster is of much benefit. You could get an Elgato on Amazon for like $50 and run your audio off your board into your camera, into the HDMI on the Elgato (which is hooked up to your laptop via USB) and use whatever live-streaming app you like, and you're off to the races. If you do it a few times and really enjoy it, get an ATEM Mini Pro, and you'd then have up to 4 camera angles if you want that many. Just my thoughts. There are certainly other viable ways to do it, though. This is great advice. I think what I'll probably do is a grow into a more pro setup if it turns out to be something I want to do on a larger scale or something I want to bring clients into. I have some limitations in this rehearsal space that are, well, limiting on a pro setup anyway. One of the big ones is that we can't hardwire anything anyway because it's a rehearsal room in a larger building that I don't own. So I don't have access to a physical router. Although at least the wifi turns out to be pretty fast (tested last night). I TOTALLY agree with the consistency thing. For me the biggest failure is often "thinking instead of doing". That's my achilles heel. I always need to remind myself that the best tool is the one that you actually use! Anyway, I'm gonna give this thing a shot later this week. I tested the sound last night and, as expected, it was great and easy to do. No reason it shouldn't be, just a board L/R out. The key will be how well the multi camera thing works. And if it doesn't? Well I'll just have to step up to a more pro option sooner rather than later. |
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Post by EmRR on Mar 22, 2023 9:38:57 GMT -6
man! that guy is a killer slide player. Blown away Yeah, he's in our house band for now. On his way up. I've been getting him on sessions when I can, but he may get too busy real soon. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 23, 2023 10:26:33 GMT -6
Ok, that didn't take long. Paging the other mark williamsAlthough the streaming on the Wifi wasn't too bad in my tests last night, the consistency of the camera feed over Wifi was not perfect. Actually, it was fine until we went to split screen mode and then it got pretty herky jerky. That's a problem because we don't have an operator (this is just me and my band) so split screen is something I was intending to lean on. The other thing is I think I really want to be able to switch cameras with a footswitch which I don't believe the Roland Aerocaster supports. Questions... - The Blackmagic ATEM Mini Pro only has 1/8 analog inputs... I'd really rather not be using a converter to get my TRS lines into that format but I suppose I could. Does it really matter? - Are there other devices that just convert TRS/XLR into HDMI? Maybe I could do it that way as a "camera feed" with no video? - I'm asking because although I have access to pro cameras through a bandmate, they can't "live" in the rehearsal space. However I have kind of a pro-sumer level camera that I could leave on a tripod but it has only rudimentary ability to accept outside audio. - Footswitch for Mini Pro? - Software recommendation for a Macbook M1? I actually do like the Aerocaster but I want to explore some other options before I get too deep into this setup. The test feed was "better than most" and "good enough" but frustrating to me because the audio was awesome and the video was "meh". |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 23, 2023 12:59:36 GMT -6
Ha! Not terribly surprising - video is just a totally different game. Although the streaming on the Wifi wasn't too bad in my tests last night, the consistency of the camera feed over Wifi was not perfect. Actually, it was fine until we went to split screen mode and then it got pretty herky jerky. That's a problem because we don't have an operator (this is just me and my band) so split screen is something I was intending to lean on. This is why I mentioned that ideally, a video capture device would have an HDMI (or SDI) out - that way you can just hook up a monitor or TV and see the actual feed that everyone else is seeing without taking any processing power. The other thing is I think I really want to be able to switch cameras with a footswitch which I don't believe the Roland Aerocaster supports. I can definitely see how awesome it would be to have camera switching be tied to a footswitch. I've never seen any hardware that supports that, however. Maybe there's a product I'm just not aware of, though. Despite my personal dislike of OBS, it's quite flexible - there may well be a way to tie a MIDI CC event to switching camera angle in OBS. Questions... - The Blackmagic ATEM Mini Pro only has 1/8 analog inputs... I'd really rather not be using a converter to get my TRS lines into that format but I suppose I could. Does it really matter? It is a bit of a bummer that the ATEM Mini series has audio ins on 1/8" jacks only, but it's never been a problem for me in real-world use. You could get something like a Switchcraft SC600, or even better, one of the Radial boxes. It's not a bad idea to put a transformer between the audio feed and video feed - I've seen all kinds of crazy noises happen that were only solved (or substantially lessened) by putting a transformer in the audio path. - Are there other devices that just convert TRS/XLR into HDMI? Maybe I could do it that way as a "camera feed" with no video? Good question. HDMI obviously carries both video and audio, so theoretically what you're asking about would be possible. Even some of the cheapo Elgato devices have a separate 1/8" jack for audio input, and you could certainly use that as its own feed without video. Not sure what it would gain you, though. If you're just wanting a piece of hardware with professional audio jacks, good luck. Most of the time in video when professional audio jacks get involved, you're going be paying through the nose for it. So much would depend on what you're using to switch camera angles. Go to B&H and do a product search for "audio HDMI converter," or something like that, and see what turns up. I haven't ever needed that, so I'm not sure off the top of my head. Maybe there's something affordable I just don't know about. I'm happy to look at anything you find, though. - I'm asking because although I have access to pro cameras through a bandmate, they can't "live" in the rehearsal space. However I have kind of a pro-sumer level camera that I could leave on a tripod but it has only rudimentary ability to accept outside audio. Most cameras that you would use on a gig like this only have a 1/8" stereo jack for audio input. Like, even the RED Komodo only has that. Sometimes I use a SoundDevices MixPre6 as a "mixer" for my audio and then just spit its output into the camera's 1/8" jack. I guess what I mean is, don't be afraid of using the camera's 1/8" jack input. Do know that most cameras don't have a way to switch that input to a line input, so the preamps are always active on the camera. You would need to turn them down or maybe even pad the signal coming out of your mixer or going into the camera. - Footswitch for Mini Pro? Nope. (Also, addressed above...) - Software recommendation for a Macbook M1? Do you mean livestreaming software? Other than OBS? There are certainly others, most or all of them involve paying something. There's Restream Studio, Ecamm Live, plenty of others. Just search for it on YouTube and you'll get reviews of every service out there - you can see what looks like it would jive with you the most. And not to keep plugging the ATEM Mini series--because they honestly may not be right for you--but they can just livestream directly, with no need for other software. I actually do like the Aerocaster but I want to explore some other options before I get too deep into this setup. The test feed was "better than most" and "good enough" but frustrating to me because the audio was awesome and the video was "meh". Understood. I definitely think there's a market for this kind of hardware product, and I don't think anyone has completely nailed it yet. The truth of the matter is that often the audio and video worlds are still just too siloed from each other to entirely understand what the standards are in each field, much less what customers actually need. Even after several years of doing video now, I'm still surprised at how little video people understand about audio. It's commonly said in the video world that 80% of having a good video is actually just having good audio, because people will tolerate poor/substandard video if they can at least hear and understand what people are saying on screen. But I don't know very many video guys that actually seem to believe that based upon their behavioral practices. Oh well. It keeps audio guys employed in the video and film industries, which is never a bad thing. |
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