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Post by cademan7 on Mar 9, 2023 17:21:46 GMT -6
After much deliberation I finally bit the bullet on the Capi SumBus32 8x2 summing mixer and I'm pretty happy with it. I think it's quite a bit of an improvement over my passive summing mixer I was using prior. My main hesitation in purchasing was the lack of audio samples I could find online. More specifically, comparisons between the sumbus and other summing mixers out there or even comparisons with digital summing. So, here is a quick comparison with a mix I did today between the SumBus and the same mix routed to an in the box mixbus with the same hardware chain. Here are some notes about the setup. Mixbus used for both mixes: SSL bus comp > Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet > Stam Audio 33609 > Fabfilter Pro-L2 This song was mixed through the SumBus from the start and the gain staging of the SumBus does seem to change the balance a bit between the mono and stereo busses, so after routing everything to a stereo bus in Pro Tools, I had to make some adjustments to the balance of the 8 busses by ear to try and match the balance of the analog summed mix. Here is my bus setup: 1-2: Drums 3: Lead vocals 4: Bass 5-6: Guitars 7-8: Misc The SumBus changes things pretty dramatically so had I mixed the song in the box from the start, the difference might not be quite as dramatic. I don't know. But hopefully this is helpful to anyone out there who is considering one of these! I'd like to do more comparisons going forward and possibly even some comparisons with the 8068 we have at the Church. Link: www.dropbox.com/sh/2cxsx228qshcdel/AAAXm-7esUBxPAwHODQ2SL-3a?dl=0Oh, and make sure you listen on Apple Air pods or a mono phone speaker! lol Thoughts? |
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 9, 2023 17:58:58 GMT -6
I think the SumBus mix sounds more like “it”. I am not a golden eared wonder or anything but it definitely sounds better to me. And , the song is very solid too. Nice work!
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Post by sirthought on Mar 9, 2023 18:04:06 GMT -6
Hate to be that guy, but listening on my 16" MBP speakers I don't hear a significant difference. I'd say it's the furtherest thing from dramatic. Could our ears be that different or is it just the monitoring system?
It's a nice mix. Everything sounds good on both versions.
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Post by rob61 on Mar 9, 2023 18:36:21 GMT -6
Wow, the sum buss mix has the added dimension that often lacks in a ITB mix. It really did make a difference in the examples you posted. Congrats on your new tool.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 9, 2023 18:44:05 GMT -6
Pretty large difference. Low end is totally different, much tighter in the sumbus. And everything has more seperation with the sumbus too. Im sure mixing into it makes a big difference vs just routing stuff out to it at the last step. Someday i'll have one.. Hate to be that guy, but listening on my 16" MBP speakers I don't hear a significant difference. I'd say it's the furtherest thing from dramatic. Could our ears be that different or is it just the monitoring system? It's a nice mix. Everything sounds good on both versions. I don't know why you would expect to be able to A/B anything on laptop speakers. Put some headphones on at least. |
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Post by sirthought on Mar 9, 2023 19:20:59 GMT -6
Because most music consumers will be listening on a consumer source. If the difference isn't heard there, does it really happen?
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 9, 2023 19:29:22 GMT -6
Because most music consumers will be listening on a consumer source. If the difference isn't heard there, does it really happen? Yes, it still happens. |
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Post by sam on Mar 9, 2023 20:40:10 GMT -6
The largest difference I noticed between the two were mostly volume inconsistencies, so in my opinion, that makes it incredibly tough to be objective. The CAPI mix sounds more balanced, but that is easily correctible in the ITB mix. I think the vocals are much louder in the ITB mix and that is kinda throwing me off.
Tonally, when hyperfocusing on the parts themselves to see if there was a difference, I couldn't find any. The parts themselves all sound great in either scenario.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Mar 9, 2023 22:36:09 GMT -6
I would love to have a Sumbus for my workflow. That said, mixing a song from the start through Sumbus , then trying to match it ITB is kind of meaningless. Of course the Sumbus mix is going to sound better, since the main effort was put in mixing through the thing. The ITB mix never has a chance.
It’s like all the plugin vs hardware shootouts. Some cat spends time getting a great sound through a hardware piece, then spends two minutes trying to get a plugin to match. Of course the plugin will sound different in that scenario.
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Post by drumsound on Mar 10, 2023 17:50:26 GMT -6
Thank you so much for sharing this with us! It's pretty interesting to hear. The CAPI mix is easier to listen to but it also has a really different thing happening in the mids where it "presents' with a more upper midrange presence and the ITB has more low mid stuff, but not generally the better low mid stuff.
I have a thought on methodology that Bob Ohlsson suggested years ago when speaking of summing. His thing was to make a mix ITB and then to start breaking it out to a console (I can remember, maybe a summing mixer, but there weren't 30 of them to choose from at the time). He suggested that just taking out the vocal would start the change in feel and that it would become more apparent as things were broken out.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 10, 2023 18:05:06 GMT -6
cademan7 what opamps did you go with in the output card(s) and do you have both A and B cards? I have two in mine and they're slightly different but might be helpful to others to know. That said I've been using a Chandler Mini Mixer but I'm moving this summer and in whatever new studio I build there I'll be putting both to work to have the choice of sending either way. They're both amazing units and I'd like to take advantage.
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Post by cademan7 on Mar 10, 2023 18:32:41 GMT -6
cademan7 what opamps did you go with in the output card(s) and do you have both A and B cards? I have two in mine and they're slightly different but might be helpful to others to know. That said I've been using a Chandler Mini Mixer but I'm moving this summer and in whatever new studio I build there I'll be putting both to work to have the choice of sending either way. They're both amazing units and I'd like to take advantage. Nice! I'd be very interested to hear how the Chandler compares since I've heard great things! I have just the A card installed with CA-0252 opamps. I have a pair of extra Red Dots that I may shootout at some point to see which I prefer. |
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Post by jsteiger on Mar 10, 2023 23:07:42 GMT -6
One of the most common bits of feedback I get from SumBus users is how much quicker and easier a mix will come together vs ITB or some other summing mixers.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 11, 2023 1:24:09 GMT -6
One of the most common bits of feedback I get from SumBus users is how much quicker and easier a mix will come together vs ITB or some other summing mixers. Just like a real good console. Someday.. |
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Post by christopher on Mar 11, 2023 10:23:01 GMT -6
Great mix. I guess it’s true the ITB sounds not so different, still a great mix. But that’s about as far as I can go ITB as well, .. guitar mids are a little hard and jumpy, vocals a little pokey, things aren’t sitting as well together. I usually think to myself it’s too much contrast to hear the song. A lot of modern pop radio seems to embrace it, but then modern lyrics are creating a ton of imagery, esp risqué adult content, sort of in hand with that disconnected contrast. So I wonder if the lyrics have to go there to keep the focus off the disjointed elements? Or are listeners just that bored now?
Then I go back and listen to your CAPI mix, it sounds like you told an intern to spend 40 hours and automate all the disjointed stuff to fit together like a dovetail. It’s just one cohesive thing that is good to listen to, and I hear the song.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 11, 2023 13:01:21 GMT -6
One of the most common bits of feedback I get from SumBus users is how much quicker and easier a mix will come together vs ITB or some other summing mixers. Interesting, I wonder why that would happen? It's not something I've ever experienced with a summing mixing over ITB summing and a great hardware mix bus chain. I've had a few different summing mixers here, and I've like the sound but frustratingly when I double blind ABX tested files I found an undetectable difference between using two channels of the summing mixer or all 16 channels. The summing amps only had transformers on the stereo output. Perhaps your unit has iron on every channel, like a great console does, perhaps that's the difference? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2023 14:05:38 GMT -6
Is it the DA or the CAPI contributing to the additional high mids ?
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 11, 2023 17:22:49 GMT -6
One of the most common bits of feedback I get from SumBus users is how much quicker and easier a mix will come together vs ITB or some other summing mixers. Interesting, I wonder why that would happen? It's not something I've ever experienced with a summing mixing over ITB summing and a great hardware mix bus chain. I've had a few different summing mixers here, and I've like the sound but frustratingly when I double blind ABX tested files I found an undetectable difference between using two channels of the summing mixer or all 16 channels. The summing amps only had transformers on the stereo output. Perhaps your unit has iron on every channel, like a great console does, perhaps that's the difference? There's a lot more than just summing going on with the CAPI SumBus. Check the website for details. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Mar 11, 2023 22:50:51 GMT -6
Is it the DA or the CAPI contributing to the additional high mids ? I would think so, more color added, it sounds like there's more sizzle on the CAPI mix. Probably the harmonic distortion added from all the circuitry. The ITB mix sounded a bit murkier and less gelled, pretty standard for ITB. It wasn't night and day, but the CAPI sounded better/more like a record to me. I listened on headphones.
I was gonna buy a SumBus, but man I can't wrap my head around the actually summing part being of any significance, the circuitry and transformers is the only logical explanation for a sonic difference to me, anyway different conversation.
I prefer the SumBus and definitely hear a positive difference.
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Post by OtisGreying on Mar 11, 2023 22:52:14 GMT -6
One of the most common bits of feedback I get from SumBus users is how much quicker and easier a mix will come together vs ITB or some other summing mixers. Interesting, I wonder why that would happen? It's not something I've ever experienced with a summing mixing over ITB summing and a great hardware mix bus chain. I've had a few different summing mixers here, and I've like the sound but frustratingly when I double blind ABX tested files I found an undetectable difference between using two channels of the summing mixer or all 16 channels. The summing amps only had transformers on the stereo output. Perhaps your unit has iron on every channel, like a great console does, perhaps that's the difference? That's right, SumBus has transformers on every individual channel, which IMO makes it leagues above the other summing mixers. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 12, 2023 2:46:46 GMT -6
Interesting, I wonder why that would happen? It's not something I've ever experienced with a summing mixing over ITB summing and a great hardware mix bus chain. I've had a few different summing mixers here, and I've like the sound but frustratingly when I double blind ABX tested files I found an undetectable difference between using two channels of the summing mixer or all 16 channels. The summing amps only had transformers on the stereo output. Perhaps your unit has iron on every channel, like a great console does, perhaps that's the difference? That's right, SumBus has transformers on every individual channel, which IMO makes it leagues above the other summing mixers. and lots of opamps too. Mojo all around. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 12, 2023 4:03:09 GMT -6
Interesting, I wonder why that would happen? It's not something I've ever experienced with a summing mixing over ITB summing and a great hardware mix bus chain. I've had a few different summing mixers here, and I've like the sound but frustratingly when I double blind ABX tested files I found an undetectable difference between using two channels of the summing mixer or all 16 channels. The summing amps only had transformers on the stereo output. Perhaps your unit has iron on every channel, like a great console does, perhaps that's the difference? That's right, SumBus has transformers on every individual channel, which IMO makes it leagues above the other summing mixers. That would do it! That’s what was wrong with the Neve summer for me it’s sounded very good either all channels or just two channels as the iron was only on the stereo o/p. Still, in addition to tracking everything through tubes and iron, I have a Roll Music RMS755 VCA > Thermionic Mastering Plus Vari MU > Thermionic Swift tube EQ > HEDD 192 (FX) I simply cannot imagine dialling in anymore mojo, my mixes are already sounding huge and 3D. Of course, I get it - for some folk there can never be enough vibe and mojo  |
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Post by Quint on Mar 12, 2023 5:51:50 GMT -6
I don't see why you can't recreate this aspect in a hardware inserts sort of scenario. Just send all of your individual channels through all of those colored preamps you have laying around. Hardware inserts thru 16 channels of VP28s, plus a VP28 on the master bus would sound pretty similar to summing thru 16 channels of the Sumbus, I bet. That would be a much more fair comparison.
I haven't ever done a proper experiment to test this myself, so I can't speak to the validity of this, but I seem to remember reading somewhere about at least some converters maybe not being able to properly drive analog equipment such as compressors or eqs, in which case you might not be getting the full experience with hardware inserts, compared to what you'd be getting if mixing thru a proper console.
In other words, the implication was that, over and above any tone or coloration you'd get from the transformers and opamps in a console or something like the Sumbus, impedance loading issues coming out of your converters could be making a difference too, with the possible solution being to just run your converter outputs thru a preamp first before hitting the comp or eq or whatever it is your doing with your hardware inserts.
Anyway, I don't remember all of the details, and it could be complete nonsense, so who knows. Anybody else heard anything about loading issues between converters and hardware?
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 12, 2023 10:10:54 GMT -6
I don't see why you can't recreate this aspect in a hardware inserts sort of scenario. Just send all of your individual channels through all of those colored preamps you have laying around. Hardware inserts thru 16 channels of VP28s, plus a VP28 on the master bus would sound pretty similar to summing thru 16 channels of the Sumbus, I bet. That would be a much more fair comparison. I haven't ever done a proper experiment to test this myself, so I can't speak to the validity of this, but I seem to remember reading somewhere about at least some converters maybe not being able to properly drive analog equipment such as compressors or eqs, in which case you might not be getting the full experience with hardware inserts, compared to what you'd be getting if mixing thru a proper console. In other words, the implication was that, over and above any tone or coloration you'd get from the transformers and opamps in a console or something like the Sumbus, impedance loading issues coming out of your converters could be making a difference too, with the possible solution being to just run your converter outputs thru a preamp first before hitting the comp or eq or whatever it is your doing with your hardware inserts. Anyway, I don't remember all of the details, and it could be complete nonsense, so who knows. Anybody else heard anything about loading issues between converters and hardware? Not with protools hdx. However this would be pretty damn expensive to do. And also potentially a gain staging annoyance. But also totally do able and likely just as good I'm sure in some ways. If you could ever actually get ahold of 8 vp28s much less 16 or 24. Would be worth doing. Plus obviously you get mic ores out of it too. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 12, 2023 11:24:32 GMT -6
One of the most common bits of feedback I get from SumBus users is how much quicker and easier a mix will come together vs ITB or some other summing mixers. I do think this is the biggest thing. You can push a mix more when you mix into it. |
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