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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 8, 2023 3:51:31 GMT -6
 I don’t know that its a biggee for me, after having snd selling a board), but I guess if you were going the summing way this would be interesting ? I see Stam on FB taking orders on a new batch too, much lower cost. |
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Post by Ward on Mar 8, 2023 5:28:19 GMT -6
If all I wanted was a summing box with level and panning, I would get jsteiger's CAPI sum box. |
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Summing
Mar 8, 2023 7:03:58 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 8, 2023 7:03:58 GMT -6
Sure, the others add trannies , if you want to pay?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2023 9:32:47 GMT -6
Summing is something that modern floating point daws do perfectly.
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Post by jaba on Mar 8, 2023 10:35:10 GMT -6
Summing is something that modern floating point daws do perfectly. Isn't that why people do external summing? Color is added all over tracking and mixing over here so I assuming summing is for some just another place to do that. I mostly mix ITB these day and sum there as well but I get the desire to go for yet another step of less-than-perfect. Whether it makes a worthwhile difference is another story though (I've really only done ITB summing or going through a console but never a "summing box" so I can't say personally). |
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Post by seawell on Mar 8, 2023 13:47:52 GMT -6
I use a summing mixer and really enjoy it but an ITB vs summing shootout is basically impossible to do because it's all about how it influences your decisions as you work through it. You can never mix the same song, with the same instincts two different times so for anyone interested in summing, you just have to try one, work through it and see if the results are more enjoyable for you.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2023 14:09:16 GMT -6
Very true. Man I wish I had the extra IO and was able to mix into the Sumbus. Ultimately, I think your Monitors and DA are the most important - you can get there if you can hear what you're doing - but I do wonder if there's that last 3% of width and depth is the difference.
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Post by christophert on Mar 8, 2023 14:18:01 GMT -6
Summing is something that modern floating point daws do perfectly. I don't want perfection - I want vibe / transformers / tubes / thickness / width. I much prefer the sound of external summing through lots of outboard.
I use a 32 input Pueblo with transformers.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Mar 8, 2023 16:25:00 GMT -6
I also think an important part of Analog Summing, is the ability to mix thru all the outboard gear you love, with no "insert latency"
I go out of my summing mixer with as many channels, (usually 24) as I like, into whatever gear I need to achieve my sound, and that all gets mixed Analog in the summing mixer, (Neve 8816 in my case) with more Analog stuff on the "Stereo Bus" and then back thru my convertor of choice, Crane Song Head Quantum, and back into the computer.
I have yet, (after many, many, years of trying) to match what I achieve with this setup, to a in the box mix?
The summed mix for me is always better.
But what do I know, I'm sure it's just me...?
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Post by jmoose on Mar 8, 2023 17:45:25 GMT -6
Very true. Man I wish I had the extra IO and was able to mix into the Sumbus. Ultimately, I think your Monitors and DA are the most important - you can get there if you can hear what you're doing - but I do wonder if there's that last 3% of width and depth is the difference. Its not really a 3 or 5% difference. The fundamental difference is probably closer to 100%. Its a different workflow with vastly different results. Most of the time I'm summing through an SSL XLogic desk. The baby 20 input version. It has aux sends, inserts, returns, mutes & solos... and neither here nor there but a really kick ass monitor/center section. So that piece of the puzzle is solved. Ultimately analog vs digital around here is about which toolbox I'm working out of. And mixing the same song ITB vs full on hybrid analog? The results are wildly different because of the differences in those toolboxes. If I'm mixing ITB I basically have that set of tools. Whatever plugs I have? That's all I can draw from. When I'm mixing on the desk? Now I have ALL the tools available. There are more options. Way more. That alone is the difference. I can hang outboard with no insert latency. Compressors. EQ's. Reverbs & other effects. Plug in reamp boxes & guitar pedals. Dozens of pieces of gear or just a handful. Whatever we choose. Whatever the music needs. And then I still have all the same digital tools that'd be used in an ITB mix. More is more. No doubt the fully hybrid trip is an extra level or two of stuff to keep track of. But IMO its entirely manageable and worth the effort. Of course if someone wants the 3 second instant recall option? They're more comfortable? Not a problem. When your listening through all that equipment in the hybrid scenario, you are going to wind up making different decisions then if you weren't running through all that junk. That's more then 3% by a crazy margin and so like seawell said a real shootout is basically impossible. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 8, 2023 20:28:58 GMT -6
If all I wanted was a summing box with level and panning, I would get jsteiger 's CAPI sum box. Which is an incredible unit. Edit: but doesn't have leveling (did he ever release the unit with faders?) |
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Post by allbuttonmode on Mar 9, 2023 4:56:39 GMT -6
If all I wanted was a summing box with level and panning, I would get jsteiger 's CAPI sum box. Which is an incredible unit. Edit: but doesn't have leveling (did he ever release the unit with faders?) There's no level adjustment in the unit. And there's no panning either, per se. Other than hard L and R. Which is something I am starting to feel is a problem. Calibrating the channels in both respects needs to be done in the daw. I wish the unit itself had pots for this.
Don't get me wrong, though. I do absolutely LOVE my unit.
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Post by stam on Mar 9, 2023 7:50:02 GMT -6
View AttachmentI don’t know that its a biggee for me, after having snd selling a board), but I guess if you were going the summing way this would be interesting ? I see Stam on FB taking orders on a new batch too, much lower cost. Our is much simpler and quite cheap considering it has 4 UTM transformers, 2 2520 OA and 2 BA-440 cards, the same cards used on the SA-609 and it's hand made in Rome, Italy. It's really cool to have 3 different colors on a single unit. Definitely makes a drastic difference sonic wise.   |
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Summing
Mar 9, 2023 8:03:17 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Mar 9, 2023 8:03:17 GMT -6
I use a summing mixer and really enjoy it but an ITB vs summing shootout is basically impossible to do because it's all about how it influences your decisions as you work through it. You can never mix the same song, with the same instincts two different times so for anyone interested in summing, you just have to try one, work through it and see if the results are more enjoyable for you. True, but you can do two mixes, print and then compare them ? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 9, 2023 11:25:57 GMT -6
View AttachmentI don’t know that its a biggee for me, after having snd selling a board), but I guess if you were going the summing way this would be interesting ? I see Stam on FB taking orders on a new batch too, much lower cost. I have the RND 5057 and really love it. Goes for $2k. It's pretty easy to push it just a little bit because they have a -6db transformer based output. So you can push without getting into scary digital territory. If the Satellite had been available at $3k I might have gone for that just to get the inserts. But the Orbit 5057 suits my workflow nicely and and really does change the sound materially. You gotta mix into it though otherwise there's no point. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2023 11:57:03 GMT -6
View AttachmentI don’t know that its a biggee for me, after having snd selling a board), but I guess if you were going the summing way this would be interesting ? I see Stam on FB taking orders on a new batch too, much lower cost. Our is much simpler and quite cheap considering it has 4 UTM transformers, 2 2520 OA and 2 BA-440 cards, the same cards used on the SA-609 and it's hand made in Rome, Italy. It's really cool to have 3 different colors on a single unit. Definitely makes a drastic difference sonic wise. View AttachmentVery tempting |
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Post by seawell on Mar 9, 2023 12:13:28 GMT -6
I use a summing mixer and really enjoy it but an ITB vs summing shootout is basically impossible to do because it's all about how it influences your decisions as you work through it. You can never mix the same song, with the same instincts two different times so for anyone interested in summing, you just have to try one, work through it and see if the results are more enjoyable for you. True, but you can do two mixes, print and then compare them ? Sure, if you mix 2 different songs that will give you some insight to see if it's the right fit for you. It's just different from how you can calibrate two compressors to do the exact same gain reduction and compare, etc., that's more of what I was getting at. |
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Summing
Mar 9, 2023 13:00:16 GMT -6
Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 9, 2023 13:00:16 GMT -6
View AttachmentI don’t know that its a biggee for me, after having snd selling a board), but I guess if you were going the summing way this would be interesting ? I see Stam on FB taking orders on a new batch too, much lower cost. Our is much simpler and quite cheap considering it has 4 UTM transformers, 2 2520 OA and 2 BA-440 cards, the same cards used on the SA-609 and it's hand made in Rome, Italy. It's really cool to have 3 different colors on a single unit. Definitely makes a drastic difference sonic wise. View AttachmentSeems similar to the Orbit but with a few inserts and some more tonal options. Definitely worth a look, no doubt. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 9, 2023 16:35:18 GMT -6
View AttachmentI don’t know that its a biggee for me, after having snd selling a board), but I guess if you were going the summing way this would be interesting ? I see Stam on FB taking orders on a new batch too, much lower cost. I have the RND 5057 and really love it. Goes for $2k. It's pretty easy to push it just a little bit because they have a -6db transformer based output. So you can push without getting into scary digital territory. If the Satellite had been available at $3k I might have gone for that just to get the inserts. But the Orbit 5057 suits my workflow nicely and and really does change the sound materially. You gotta mix into it though otherwise there's no point. Couldn't inserts be handled via a patchbay? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 9, 2023 20:08:02 GMT -6
I have the RND 5057 and really love it. Goes for $2k. It's pretty easy to push it just a little bit because they have a -6db transformer based output. So you can push without getting into scary digital territory. If the Satellite had been available at $3k I might have gone for that just to get the inserts. But the Orbit 5057 suits my workflow nicely and and really does change the sound materially. You gotta mix into it though otherwise there's no point. Couldn't inserts be handled via a patchbay? I thought about going that route but in the end I decided to do my hardware inserts in the DAW and just send the subs to the Orbit. I thought long and hard about that particular question and in the end I just went for simplicity. I take the mix out from the Orbit and run it through Silver Bullet and then Tegeler Creme and then I'm done. Because I'm staying in the analog realm from DAW OUT -> Orbit -> SB -> Tegeler it allows me to have a lot of latitude on gain staging my sub mixes. I can send very hot signals out to the Orbit and have them under control by the time the Tegeler sends them back in. |
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Summing
Mar 9, 2023 21:17:45 GMT -6
Post by drumsound on Mar 9, 2023 21:17:45 GMT -6
Couldn't inserts be handled via a patchbay? I thought about going that route but in the end I decided to do my hardware inserts in the DAW and just send the subs to the Orbit. I thought long and hard about that particular question and in the end I just went for simplicity. I take the mix out from the Orbit and run it through Silver Bullet and then Tegeler Creme and then I'm done. Because I'm staying in the analog realm from DAW OUT -> Orbit -> SB -> Tegeler it allows me to have a lot of latitude on gain staging my sub mixes. I can send very hot signals out to the Orbit and have them under control by the time the Tegeler sends them back in. Gotcha. That's an interesting method, that I don't think I would have thought of. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 9, 2023 21:29:05 GMT -6
I thought about going that route but in the end I decided to do my hardware inserts in the DAW and just send the subs to the Orbit. I thought long and hard about that particular question and in the end I just went for simplicity. I take the mix out from the Orbit and run it through Silver Bullet and then Tegeler Creme and then I'm done. Because I'm staying in the analog realm from DAW OUT -> Orbit -> SB -> Tegeler it allows me to have a lot of latitude on gain staging my sub mixes. I can send very hot signals out to the Orbit and have them under control by the time the Tegeler sends them back in. Gotcha. That's an interesting method, that I don't think I would have thought of. I like it because I can mix into it easily. My mix template routes everything out to the Orbit and through the chain I just mentioned and then back into a "mix aux." I don't really have to think about it. Just load up the template (in Reaper of course, I'm in the cult now) and get to work. |
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 10, 2023 1:15:06 GMT -6
Gotcha. That's an interesting method, that I don't think I would have thought of. Just load up the template (in Reaper of course, I'm in the cult now) and get to work. One of us. One of us. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 10, 2023 2:41:34 GMT -6
Summing is something that modern floating point daws do perfectly. I don't want perfection - I want vibe / transformers / tubes / thickness / width. I much prefer the sound of external summing through lots of outboard.
I use a 32 input Pueblo with transformers.
We all want vibe and thickness, I gave up on summing when I discovered I could get exactly the same sound with a great tube/transformer hardware chain on my mix bus. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 10, 2023 18:10:35 GMT -6
Gotcha. That's an interesting method, that I don't think I would have thought of. I like it because I can mix into it easily. My mix template routes everything out to the Orbit and through the chain I just mentioned and then back into a "mix aux." I don't really have to think about it. Just load up the template (in Reaper of course, I'm in the cult now) and get to work. Take it +1 and drop a Speck viaFader in there before the summer, lol. That's my route and I really enjoy it. |
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