|
|
Bleed
Aug 20, 2014 21:24:53 GMT -6
Post by lolo on Aug 20, 2014 21:24:53 GMT -6
I thought I would pop back. I was just having trouble cutting a vocal .. having a real devil of a time. off with the cans, set the monitors just loud enough ( i can actually stand behind my monitors and position the rear of my U87 to the backs of them) and bingo, one take done.. sometimes.. stuff works cheers Wiz Wiz,
What pattern did you use on the Mic? Also did the vocal also come through the monitors while tracking?
|
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 20, 2014 21:41:52 GMT -6
wiz likes this
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 20, 2014 21:41:52 GMT -6
Recording should be an absolute joy!
|
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 20, 2014 22:10:15 GMT -6
Post by wiz on Aug 20, 2014 22:10:15 GMT -6
Recording should be an absolute joy! We (well I) forget that sometimes cheers Wiz |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 20, 2014 22:11:13 GMT -6
Post by wiz on Aug 20, 2014 22:11:13 GMT -6
I thought I would pop back. I was just having trouble cutting a vocal .. having a real devil of a time. off with the cans, set the monitors just loud enough ( i can actually stand behind my monitors and position the rear of my U87 to the backs of them) and bingo, one take done.. sometimes.. stuff works cheers Wiz Wiz,
What pattern did you use on the Mic? Also did the vocal also come through the monitors while tracking?
Cardoid no vocal through the monitors. don't forget I am standing BEHIND my monitors, and the null of the cardoid is pointed at the monitors. cheers Wiz |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 21, 2014 12:09:41 GMT -6
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 21, 2014 12:09:41 GMT -6
The bleed from the front of the monitors might be less of a problem.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
Member is Online
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 16:35:17 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Aug 23, 2014 16:35:17 GMT -6
Wiz,
What pattern did you use on the Mic? Also did the vocal also come through the monitors while tracking?
Cardoid no vocal through the monitors. don't forget I am standing BEHIND my monitors, and the null of the cardoid is pointed at the monitors. cheers Wiz A Cardiod null can't help with stereo monitors, hyper,super yes Cardiod single mono speaker in the null. Other wise your pretty much picking up as much as if you pointed the mic at the monitors. |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 16:44:25 GMT -6
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 23, 2014 16:44:25 GMT -6
center the pan pots, and flip the phase on one channel, you'll get full phase cancellation, and virtually no bleed into the vox mic with careful placement and low enough spl's to keep the room out of the equation, even with the speakers pointing straight at you.
|
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 16:59:53 GMT -6
Post by formatcyes on Aug 23, 2014 16:59:53 GMT -6
i thought it was just me that couldn’t sing well with cans. love this site thanks guy's.
|
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 17:39:28 GMT -6
Post by wiz on Aug 23, 2014 17:39:28 GMT -6
Cardoid no vocal through the monitors. don't forget I am standing BEHIND my monitors, and the null of the cardoid is pointed at the monitors. cheers Wiz A Cardiod null can't help with stereo monitors, hyper,super yes Cardiod single mono speaker in the null. Other wise your pretty much picking up as much as if you pointed the mic at the monitors. I disagree with this. But I may not have explained myself fully. Imagine you are sitting at your monitoring position. Your speakers face you. The singer is behind your monitors, facing you. Singing into the mic. The null point of the cardoid mic is facing towards you. It rejects the sound regardless of whether its mono stereo or surround. The rear of the mic pics up less than the front of the mic. The rear of the mic is pointed at the sound source you want to reject in this case monitors. Is that a better explanation? cheers Wiz |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
Member is Online
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 18:04:25 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Aug 23, 2014 18:04:25 GMT -6
A Cardiod null can't help with stereo monitors, hyper,super yes Cardiod single mono speaker in the null. Other wise your pretty much picking up as much as if you pointed the mic at the monitors. I disagree with this. But I may not have explained myself fully. Imagine you are sitting at your monitoring position. Your speakers face you. The singer is behind your monitors, facing you. Singing into the mic. The null point of the cardoid mic is facing towards you. It rejects the sound regardless of whether its mono stereo or surround. The rear of the mic pics up less than the front of the mic. The rear of the mic is pointed at the sound source you want to reject in this case monitors. Is that a better explanation? cheers Wiz In theory your close to correct, in reality other than the little null your probably only down 3-6 dB at the back and the frequency response is anything but linear! If rejection is what you want approach it like stage monitors Cardiod single monitor in the Null ie 180 degrees off axis! Hyper or super monitors in normal stereo position , in other words to the sides of the lobe, Omni - where ever great for moving around because once you EQ the problem from the monitors the linearity will be its reward. Cardiod is not about general rear rejection it is about the rejection at 180 degrees off axis! Look at the polar plots of some cardiods very carefully and you will learn. The scary thing is when you learn how some are inconsistent as far as frequency response in the rear from left to right! I remember sitting through a seminar with a engineer from Shure sitting on one Side of me a engineer from AT on the other 2 famous wedge mixers were in front of us as a sales guy kept describing the rear rejection of a Cardiod as he talked into the rear of the mic 30-60 degrees from the rear axis and we could all hear he was only about 3 dB down except when he was in the null! They all wanted to kill him! It took a lot of drinks to calm them down! |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 18:44:09 GMT -6
Post by wiz on Aug 23, 2014 18:44:09 GMT -6
ericnI was responding to this statement. "A Cardiod null can't help with stereo monitors, hyper,super yes Cardiod single mono speaker in the null. Other wise your pretty much picking up as much as if you pointed the mic at the monitors." the "pretty much" part it is about 6dB, which I found was enough to get the job done. 8) one mans 6dB is not another mans "pretty much" 8) no probs.. i agree with all you said. cheers Wiz
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
Member is Online
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 19:05:19 GMT -6
via mobile
wiz likes this
Post by ericn on Aug 23, 2014 19:05:19 GMT -6
ericnI was responding to this statement. "A Cardiod null can't help with stereo monitors, hyper,super yes Cardiod single mono speaker in the null. Other wise your pretty much picking up as much as if you pointed the mic at the monitors." the "pretty much" part it is about 6dB, which I found was enough to get the job done. 8) one mans 6dB is not another mans "pretty much" 8) no probs.. i agree with all you said. cheers Wiz All righty then In general always remember, manufacturers of LDCs could care less about the polar pattern they produce , it's all about what happens out front! Last week I was passing through GC and the manager was trying to demo a c214 between the monitor it kept howling , he left to answer a phone call asked the customer if I could try something, moved it a 180 degrees off axis pulled the plug on the other speaker and perfection. ! GC Manager couldn't believe it when he came back ! |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 20:01:57 GMT -6
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 23, 2014 20:01:57 GMT -6
The problem I had with two speakers out of phase is that reflections from the singers head and the room created bleed that caused weird cancellation problems.
|
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 20:14:19 GMT -6
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 23, 2014 20:14:19 GMT -6
The problem I had with two speakers out of phase is that reflections from the singers head and the room created bleed that caused weird cancellation problems. agreed Bob, this is why i said you need to keep the spl's down, i wonder if the reflections off the singers head would go away if you put a bunch of auralex foam all over his face? lol |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 20:33:03 GMT -6
Post by Ward on Aug 23, 2014 20:33:03 GMT -6
center the pan pots, and flip the phase on one channel, you'll get full phase cancellation, and virtually no bleed into the vox mic with careful placement and low enough spl's to keep the room out of the equation, even with the speakers pointing straight at you. Why hasn't anyone mentioned what perfect placement is yet? It's an isosceles triangle!! Best with most NF monitors at about 5' sides. All perfect 60º angles, which is what 'isosceles' means anyhow. And at exactly the same height as the microphone. |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 20:44:10 GMT -6
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 23, 2014 20:44:10 GMT -6
center the pan pots, and flip the phase on one channel, you'll get full phase cancellation, and virtually no bleed into the vox mic with careful placement and low enough spl's to keep the room out of the equation, even with the speakers pointing straight at you. It's an isosceles triangle!! Best with most NF monitors at about 5' sides. All perfect 60º angles, which is what 'isosceles' means anyhow. And at exactly the same height as the microphone. i was hoping you were talking about perfect placement of the foam on the singers face 8) But seriously, i haven't done the monitor phase trick in forever and a day, have you done it recently ward? |
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 23, 2014 21:22:40 GMT -6
One speaker and recording a pass with no singing so I could flip it always worked better for me.
|
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 23, 2014 22:54:44 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 23, 2014 22:54:44 GMT -6
center the pan pots, and flip the phase on one channel, you'll get full phase cancellation, and virtually no bleed into the vox mic with careful placement and low enough spl's to keep the room out of the equation, even with the speakers pointing straight at you. Why hasn't anyone mentioned what perfect placement is yet? It's an isosceles triangle!! Best with most NF monitors at about 5' sides. All perfect 60º angles, which is what 'isosceles' means anyhow. And at exactly the same height as the microphone. Equilateral is all 60 degrees. All equilaterals are isosceles, not all isosceles are equilateral. John said there would be no math though.  |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 24, 2014 3:40:23 GMT -6
Post by Ward on Aug 24, 2014 3:40:23 GMT -6
Why hasn't anyone mentioned what perfect placement is yet? It's an isosceles triangle!! Best with most NF monitors at about 5' sides. All perfect 60º angles, which is what 'isosceles' means anyhow. And at exactly the same height as the microphone. Equilateral is all 60 degrees. All equilaterals are isosceles, not all isosceles are equilateral. John said there would be no math though. Really??? Can you name an isosceles triangle that is not equilateral? It's unpossible. And the correct term is an isosceles triangle. Great. Now we're arguing math. Way to go Coutu. What is this, purple place? |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 24, 2014 6:38:37 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 24, 2014 6:38:37 GMT -6
Equilateral is all 60 degrees. All equilaterals are isosceles, not all isosceles are equilateral. John said there would be no math though. Really??? Can you name an isosceles triangle that is not equilateral? It's unpossible. And the correct term is an isosceles triangle. Great. Now we're arguing math. Way to go Coutu. What is this, purple place? Obtuse triangle with 100, 40, 40 angles and sides of 5', 5', and ~7' 9" would still be isosceles and not equilateral.  |
|
|
|
Post by RicFoxx on Aug 24, 2014 7:19:38 GMT -6
Really??? Can you name an isosceles triangle that is not equilateral? It's unpossible. And the correct term is an isosceles triangle. Great. Now we're arguing math. Way to go Coutu. What is this, purple place? Obtuse triangle with 100, 40, 40 angles and sides of 5', 5', and ~7' 9" would still be isosceles and not equilateral. NERD!!! |
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 24, 2014 7:21:27 GMT -6
via mobile
RicFoxx likes this
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 24, 2014 7:21:27 GMT -6
Obtuse triangle with 100, 40, 40 angles and sides of 5', 5', and ~7' 9" would still be isosceles and not equilateral. NERD!!! Truth. |
|
|
|
Post by LesC on Aug 24, 2014 13:46:28 GMT -6
The problem I had with two speakers out of phase is that reflections from the singers head and the room created bleed that caused weird cancellation problems. agreed Bob, this is why i said you need to keep the spl's down, i wonder if the reflections off the singers head would go away if you put a bunch of auralex foam all over his face? lol OK, from now on I only want to work with bearded singers. Unfortunately, I mostly work with female singers, it won't be a pretty sight. |
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 24, 2014 16:44:07 GMT -6
that was a bit of a geek throw down..
8)
cheers
Wiz
|
|
|
|
Bleed
Aug 27, 2014 18:06:21 GMT -6
Post by wiz on Aug 27, 2014 18:06:21 GMT -6
Well, fair disclosure...
the vocal with bleed didn't survive... 8)
it became a pain.
So I re sang it.
was a good idea while it lasted...
8)
cheers
Wiz
|
|
