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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 17, 2023 16:24:39 GMT -6
Does the new Apple M1/M2 architecture support third party graphics cards at this point? I know eGPU was dead at one point (not sure if that's still the case) for new Mac's, but I guess I never really considered what a new Mac Pro would look like. I don't think so. But if they really want to be top dog in the professional rendering world again, they will need to. They still can't keep up with a RTX4090. Or really probably any of the new 4000 series. Or 7000 from AMD. They aren't slouches either mind you. But for intense video rendering or 3D modeling, they are no where near the top dogs. I have an HDX card and would rather it be contained in the Mac chassis vs having to get some other chassis which tend to be loud. Yes yes yes! It's going to be interesting to see what they do here. There are still a lot of film/video editors using Macs, but if Apple can't keep up (especially as AR/VR becomes more popular in the years ahead), they're going to be in trouble in the professional world. As a non-programmer, it sure seems like it would be great if Apple supported 3rd party GPUs again, but that may well be an insurmountable obstacle with the new chip architecture for all I know. I will say that my M1 Mini's very basic GPU beats out my wife's Intel iMac's GPU for video editing and rendering. I don't think Apple is having a problem with matching or beating the mid-tier GPUs and lower. It's the high end stuff where they're falling behind. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 17, 2023 16:29:26 GMT -6
I don't think so. But if they really want to be top dog in the professional rendering world again, they will need to. They still can't keep up with a RTX4090. Or really probably any of the new 4000 series. Or 7000 from AMD. They aren't slouches either mind you. But for intense video rendering or 3D modeling, they are no where near the top dogs. I have an HDX card and would rather it be contained in the Mac chassis vs having to get some other chassis which tend to be loud. Yes yes yes! It's going to be interesting to see what they do here. There are still a lot of film/video editors using Macs, but if Apple can't keep up (especially as AR/VR becomes more popular in the years ahead), they're going to be in trouble in the professional world. As a non-programmer, it sure seems like it would be great if Apple supported 3rd party GPUs again, but that may well be an insurmountable obstacle with the new chip architecture for all I know. I will say that my M1 Mini's very basic GPU beats out my wife's Intel iMac's GPU for video editing and rendering. I don't think Apple is having a problem with matching or beating the mid-tier GPUs and lower. It's the high end stuff where they're falling behind. yeah I mean no iMac came with that powerful of GPU's to begin with. Most came with very old 580x GPU's. We were using those before we got some Studio's. They are much faster, but honestly when denoising video, they are faster but not that much faster. But yes, for most people, plenty of horsepower built in. Big stuff. Not so much. Dedicated Rendering PC's have become the thing for that task. |
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Post by dok on Jan 17, 2023 17:19:03 GMT -6
yeah I mean no iMac came with that powerful of GPU's to begin with. Most came with very old 580x GPU's. We were using those before we got some Studio's. They are much faster, but honestly when denoising video, they are faster but not that much faster. But yes, for most people, plenty of horsepower built in. Big stuff. Not so much. Dedicated Rendering PC's have become the thing for that task. You have to remember that while the actual speed of processing may not seem much faster (for one thing you have to be sure you're comparing and controlling for the same set of factors), the really big gains are in energy consumption and thermal performance. So, sure, maybe not a TON faster yet, but huge reductions in wattage used and heat generated, and very impressive in that regard. But even 20-30% speed increases don't always feel incredibly faster despite what the data shows. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 17, 2023 17:57:40 GMT -6
mac Cpu wars
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Post by RealNoob on Jan 17, 2023 18:14:39 GMT -6
With my M1 Max, I have no reason to upgrade. It is a beast as is.
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Post by reddirt on Jan 17, 2023 18:45:16 GMT -6
With my M1 Max, I have no reason to upgrade. It is a beast as is. What specs is it Rob? Cheers, Ross |
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Post by RealNoob on Jan 17, 2023 23:04:15 GMT -6
With my M1 Max, I have no reason to upgrade. It is a beast as is. What specs is it Rob? Cheers, Ross M1 Max 10 cores 32 Core GPU 64G Memory 2 TB SSD |
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Post by OtisGreying on Jan 18, 2023 0:31:23 GMT -6
I finally made a clean template around the new MDWDRC2 and MDWEQ6 with Nova GE, some Goodhertz plugs, and choice fx sends. It runs on most modern computers. Old ones… no. What stops my i9-12900k and the m1 dead is tons of heavy fx sends and heavy bus processing in say 16-24 track projects. You will max out a core and cause the thing to stutter through buffer overload at 50-60% total load. Unless Apple has increased the single core speed to match Intel, there’s little benefit for real time audio processing over the m1. Now the thing with Intel and Amd is the new CPUs require a full ATX case to cool, which is huge. Skylake you could use a smaller case. Raptor lake. No. And you need an aio liquid cooler. Have you considered AudioGridder Dan?
It's great seeing so much CPU power for cheap from Apple but the fact remains as you said single core speed is pretty much everything as far as music goes. But, if it were a slave computer, now were talking about something making a real difference. To spend 600 bucks and have a very full on plug-in slave computer would be very powerful I would think, I haven't tried it yet but am kindove just assuming since it isn't very widely adopted technique it must be finicky and cumbersome to use. (baseless assumption of course - I hope to actually try it soon)
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Post by RealNoob on Jan 18, 2023 9:37:56 GMT -6
anyone still using 2012 Mac Pros? Are they still upgradable to beast mode, perhaps more cheaply today than before?
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Post by reddirt on Jan 18, 2023 17:46:00 GMT -6
This guy knows his stuff
Cheers, Ross
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Post by brenta on Jan 18, 2023 18:37:11 GMT -6
Until the M4 Mega drops, I'm stuck on Intel. People who're newer to the Appleverse, say since they migrated to Intel in 2006, may not see the pattern. But it goes something like this. Jurassic (84-94)OS 6-9 Motorola 68000, 020, 030, 040 Cretaceous (94-05)OS 9-10 PowerPC/RISC 601, 603/e, 604/e, g3 / 4 / 5 Paleogenic (06-20)OS 10-13 Intel, Intel, Intel. From Core2Duo to Kari Lake to Camp Crystal Lake to Ricki Lake / Xenon, Boron, Agamemnon processors Neogenic (20-present)OS 12-present M1, M1Pro, M1Max, M2, M2Pro, M2MegaMax, M2UberUltra, M3, M3Mega, M3UltraMega, M3UberUltraMegaMegaMax You realize that, having been through this for however many migrations (for me it's been literally all of them including the 68xxx - anyone remember NuBus cards and ADB connections?) that every time, the carrot is dangled. More this, faster that, 32,593,103,594,294,104,593,295 petateraflops (the scariest of the dinosaurs!) per picosecond, 20-bazillion GB per second via the new EarthquakeBolt connector ($49 adapter available), and so on. But for two things... EITHER, you realize "holy crap, I don't need to run 1000 tracks with 50000 plugins at 16 sample latency" /OR/ "yeah, but the new OS and DAW chewed through all that extra power with their bloated ball-of-bandaids code". It's an abusive relationship that, as an Apple user for over 40 years (yes, a IIe in 5th grade counts!), I'm powerless to escape. I finally made a clean template around the new MDWDRC2 and MDWEQ6 with Nova GE, some Goodhertz plugs, and choice fx sends. It runs on most modern computers. Old ones… no. What stops my i9-12900k and the m1 dead is tons of heavy fx sends and heavy bus processing in say 16-24 track projects. You will max out a core and cause the thing to stutter through buffer overload at 50-60% total load. Unless Apple has increased the single core speed to match Intel, there’s little benefit for real time audio processing over the m1. Now the thing with Intel and Amd is the new CPUs require a full ATX case to cool, which is huge. Skylake you could use a smaller case. Raptor lake. No. And you need an aio liquid cooler. The benchmark I saw showed the M2 series has 8% faster single core speeds than the M1’s did. Slower than Intel’s and AMD’s fastest chips. Obviously we have different workflows, but I can’t imagine hitting the power/speed ceiling of my M1 Max MBP, even running everything through Rosetta. 60-80 track sessions at 96k with plenty of busses and oversampling etc and it’s fine. But I do have the much maligned UAD SHARC chips doing some of the heavy lifting. It’s the first computer I’ve ver owned that I didn’t wish was a little faster. 4k video editing, high res photos, big audio sessions—no problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 19:30:42 GMT -6
I finally made a clean template around the new MDWDRC2 and MDWEQ6 with Nova GE, some Goodhertz plugs, and choice fx sends. It runs on most modern computers. Old ones… no. What stops my i9-12900k and the m1 dead is tons of heavy fx sends and heavy bus processing in say 16-24 track projects. You will max out a core and cause the thing to stutter through buffer overload at 50-60% total load. Unless Apple has increased the single core speed to match Intel, there’s little benefit for real time audio processing over the m1. Now the thing with Intel and Amd is the new CPUs require a full ATX case to cool, which is huge. Skylake you could use a smaller case. Raptor lake. No. And you need an aio liquid cooler. The benchmark I saw showed the M2 series has 8% faster single core speeds than the M1’s did. Slower than Intel’s and AMD’s fastest chips. Obviously we have different workflows, but I can’t imagine hitting the power/speed ceiling of my M1 Max MBP, even running everything through Rosetta. 60-80 track sessions at 96k with plenty of busses and oversampling etc and it’s fine. But I do have the much maligned UAD SHARC chips doing some of the heavy lifting. It’s the first computer I’ve ver owned that I didn’t wish was a little faster. 4k video editing, high res photos, big audio sessions—no problem. All you need to do is push one core over what it can process in the buffer. I can max out a 12900k at 88.2 or 96 kHz with a 16 track recording if I am “producing” it, ie changing the sounds, and not just “mixing” down cleanly. Even then the fx sends and bus processing can still bring it down. Guys are buying full ATX rigs with the 13900k because it can play amp sims on the highest quality settings at 16 samples buffer. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 19, 2023 2:58:14 GMT -6
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Post by linas on Jan 19, 2023 11:42:56 GMT -6
I have a pimped out Ryzen 9 3900 E-ATX rig, way more power than I need for what I do. It will serve me for the coming 5 years...
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 19, 2023 15:14:33 GMT -6
I'm deciding between a pro built for audio i9 13th gen 16 core 64GB ram and 3x 2TB M.2 drives
or an Apple Studio Ultra to use with Cubase.
The Apple Studio is coming out on the expensive side, so at this point I think I'm going to stick with Windows and stay PC
as I feel I'm getting more for my money.
That said, it's a tough decision as the Apple Studio is a lovely bit of kit.
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Post by bradd on Jan 19, 2023 15:53:13 GMT -6
I think the PC vs. Mac decision at this point boils down to which DAW you are using. With Cubase, I would definitely go PC.
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Post by reddirt on Jan 19, 2023 17:20:01 GMT -6
I think the PC vs. Mac decision at this point boils down to which DAW you are using. With Cubase, I would definitely go PC. Noise is not relevant Bradd? Cheers, Ross |
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Post by bradd on Jan 19, 2023 17:24:11 GMT -6
I was just responding to the hightenor's post. FWIW, I'm a Mac/Logic guy.
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Post by linas on Jan 20, 2023 15:12:39 GMT -6
Huge BeQuiet! case and Noctua cooling - does the job! I can hear it only when the room is dead silent. And I have bat's ears, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2023 16:09:55 GMT -6
I think the PC vs. Mac decision at this point boils down to which DAW you are using. With Cubase, I would definitely go PC. Actually it came down to interfaces for me, PC's still whoop MAC's for a fraction of the price if you know how to slot one together but I got tired of driver issues and MAC only interfaces. Thanks MOTU (lots of driver issues on Windows), MH and Apogee (Mac only at the time)..
RME on Windows though is a hefty lineup if you like their interfaces.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2023 16:21:11 GMT -6
I think the PC vs. Mac decision at this point boils down to which DAW you are using. With Cubase, I would definitely go PC. Actually it came down to interfaces for me, PC's still whoop MAC's for a fraction of the price if you know how to slot one together but I got tired of driver issues and MAC only interfaces. Thanks MOTU (lots of driver issues on Windows), MH and Apogee (Mac only at the time)..
RME on Windows though is a hefty lineup if you like their interfaces.
You can just use an external converter over aes/spdif to accurately monitor a multichannel rme interface. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 20, 2023 16:21:54 GMT -6
My mac, aurora and logic: just work: who do I complain to ?  |
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Post by reddirt on Jan 20, 2023 16:49:15 GMT -6
My mac, aurora and logic: just work: who do I complain to ? That situation is gold Kcatt - no worries is..... no worries. I still run PT 10 on Snow leopard with a MH ULN 2 and a Prism Titan over Adat and it works every time however the computor (2010 Mac Pro) is about to be retired to remote duties only (it has never dropped it's load but needs a new battery and am putting in an SSD as well) hence my interest in these new machines with all the questions and possible s**t fights that raises. The ULN 2 is firewire and while it's been terrific , is bettered by others so retirement there too. Can I achieve the same reliability? - that is the question. As to the M2 , I have 2 screens, so will probably go with a mini as the single core performance is improved as is the memory bandwidth and people such as Wiz are using the old one successfully. Cheers, Ross |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 20, 2023 17:03:14 GMT -6
I have a 2012 mbp i7, that i used an updater to put ventura on and its running fine.
but I bought a used m1 mini, 256, 16 g for recording, over tbolt, 2 monitors and everything else: drive, magic pad/Kb , arturia controller over usb
The only problem i ever have is the m1 and my older hdmi monitor mess up their start up handshake, so I hot swap the hdmi cable at the m1 port, then monitor behaves.
The base m2 mini isn’t that much faster then an m1, so if money is an object and you don’t want to pay more, likely to be some cheap used m1 on the market soon.
Happy shopping!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2023 19:09:28 GMT -6
My mac, aurora and logic: just work: who do I complain to ? That situation is gold Kcatt - no worries is..... no worries. I still run PT 10 on Snow leopard with a MH ULN 2 and a Prism Titan over Adat and it works every time however the computor (2010 Mac Pro) is about to be retired to remote duties only (it has never dropped it's load but needs a new battery and am putting in an SSD as well) hence my interest in these new machines with all the questions and possible s**t fights that raises. The ULN 2 is firewire and while it's been terrific , is bettered by others so retirement there too. Can I achieve the same reliability? - that is the question. As to the M2 , I have 2 screens, so will probably go with a mini as the single core performance is improved as is the memory bandwidth and people such as Wiz are using the old one successfully. Cheers, Ross Can’t metric halo update it to the new converters and usb/Ethernet? You can always just use the Prism Titan over usb on your new computer. Their drivers are Rosetta compatible. beta.prismsound.com/support/faq/Prism Sound sold their interface business and Sadie to Tracktion, who rebranded as Audio Squadron, and the real “Prism Sound” is now “Spectral Measurement” and only makes “affordable” (compared to an Audio Precision) audio analyzers. www.mixonline.com/the-wire/prism-sound-test-measurement-relaunches-as-spectral-measurementSo I don’t know how well they’ll be supported from now on. I’m using an Apogee Symphony Desktop that’s rock solid on Windows and Mac. I can recommend Lynx too. RME had some pains with Apple over recent usb changes in MacOS but they fixed them. Any of those interfaces over USB (or thunderbolt) into your Prism Titan over adat would be very powerful rig. |
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