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Post by schlep on Nov 21, 2022 10:33:10 GMT -6
Hi all -
Does micing/recording an acoustic guitar while simultaneously DI'ing the piezo to a second channel create any phase issues ?
I ask this because I see the Rupert Neve 517 Mic Pre has a vari-phase potentiometer. My recall may be incorrect, but I thought I read this can be used when micing/recording an acoustic guitar while simultaneously DI'ing the piezo.
Thanks
Craig
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Post by the other mark williams on Nov 21, 2022 19:19:42 GMT -6
Hi all - Does micing/recording an acoustic guitar while simultaneously DI'ing the piezo to a second channel create any phase issues ? I ask this because I see the Rupert Neve 517 Mic Pre has a vari-phase potentiometer. My recall may be incorrect, but I thought I read this can be used when micing/recording an acoustic guitar while simultaneously DI'ing the piezo. Thanks Craig Anytime you're recording the same instrument at the same time with two different means (whether two mics or one mic and one direct), there will be a phase relationship between the two signals, and that phase relationship will be part of "the sound" of those two captures blended together. Whether manipulating that phase relationship changes things for the better or not will vary, but it's certainly one of the tools in the toolbox to try. I personally like Sound Radix Auto-Align for this kind of thing, but phase rotation plugins can also be helpful, as can subsample delays like the Eventide plugin. And welcome to RGO, Craig! Nice to have you here! |
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Post by schlep on Nov 21, 2022 22:01:44 GMT -6
TOMW - Thanks for your response. It makes sense. I knew about the mutiple mic phase issue, but failed to extend it to a direct piezo signal becuase it's not 'another mic'. I don't stereo mic the acoustic guitar, so I wanted to try a left-right pan between mic signal and piezo. Thanks for throwing out some ideas around plug ins. For now its KISS... I'll give it a try and use my ears. I'm primarily a guitarist / songwriter, and while the OCD part of my brain wants my demos to sound good, another part of my brain trys to keeps the OCD and my wallet / time in balance  . Thanks again for the assist on this. Craig |
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Post by the other mark williams on Nov 21, 2022 23:41:44 GMT -6
TOMW - Thanks for your response. It makes sense. I knew about the mutiple mic phase issue, but failed to extend it to a direct piezo signal becuase it's not 'another mic'. I don't stereo mic the acoustic guitar, so I wanted to try a left-right pan between mic signal and piezo. Thanks for throwing out some ideas around plug ins. For now its KISS... I'll give it a try and use my ears. I'm primarily a guitarist / songwriter, and while the OCD part of my brain wants my demos to sound good, another part of my brain trys to keeps the OCD and my wallet / time in balance . Thanks again for the assist on this. Craig No problem, Craig! Happy to help. Re: miced guitar on one side and piezo on the other: It’s certainly worth a try, but IMO you’re better off solo micing an acoustic and playing two parts for wide pans, maybe one capoed up and with different chord shapes. I do sometimes stereo mic acoustic guitar, and it can definitely be the right move sometimes. If you try the piezo as a source, you may find it helpful to pan the piezo to the same side as your hi hat - sometimes you can tuck it under there and give some energy without drawing too much attention to the piezo’s “quack”. Best of luck! |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 22, 2022 2:21:02 GMT -6
TOMW - Thanks for your response. It makes sense. I knew about the mutiple mic phase issue, but failed to extend it to a direct piezo signal becuase it's not 'another mic'. I don't stereo mic the acoustic guitar, so I wanted to try a left-right pan between mic signal and piezo. Thanks for throwing out some ideas around plug ins. For now its KISS... I'll give it a try and use my ears. I'm primarily a guitarist / songwriter, and while the OCD part of my brain wants my demos to sound good, another part of my brain trys to keeps the OCD and my wallet / time in balance . Thanks again for the assist on this. Craig I’m not sure why you don’t want to stereo record guitar (I only record acoustic guitars in mono usually) but a lovely alternative is Middle and Side recording - it’s a bit fiddly at first but the results are really fantastic. |
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Post by notneeson on Nov 22, 2022 6:34:23 GMT -6
I mixed some tunes where they only captured the piezo, much to our chagrin.
IR response of a Martin from Past to Future Reverb was the best solution we found for making the piezo usable.
FWIW, I would never use piezo in a mix on purpose if I had an alternative.
Everyone hears things differently though.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 22, 2022 6:52:20 GMT -6
TOMW - Thanks for your response. It makes sense. I knew about the mutiple mic phase issue, but failed to extend it to a direct piezo signal becuase it's not 'another mic'. I don't stereo mic the acoustic guitar, so I wanted to try a left-right pan between mic signal and piezo. Thanks for throwing out some ideas around plug ins. For now its KISS... I'll give it a try and use my ears. I'm primarily a guitarist / songwriter, and while the OCD part of my brain wants my demos to sound good, another part of my brain trys to keeps the OCD and my wallet / time in balance . Thanks again for the assist on this. Craig No problem, Craig! Happy to help. Re: miced guitar on one side and piezo on the other: It’s certainly worth a try, but IMO you’re better off solo micing an acoustic and playing two parts for wide pans, maybe one capoed up and with different chord shapes. I do sometimes stereo mic acoustic guitar, and it can definitely be the right move sometimes. If you try the piezo as a source, you may find it helpful to pan the piezo to the same side as your hi hat - sometimes you can tuck it under there and give some energy without drawing too much attention to the piezo’s “quack”. Best of luck! Yeah unless you’re using the piezo as an effect for the most part it seldom really works with a mic. It has a totally different tone and really No feeling of space. Even in a live situation if there is any chance of using a mic I will the piezo is just a backup and begs for so much EQ/ Dynamics/ reverb to make it feel real. |
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Post by jaba on Nov 22, 2022 8:35:31 GMT -6
Doesn't work for every style, but I'm a big fan a throwing a guitar DI into an amp. Can be cool to play with subtle tremolo, reverb, amount of crunch.
One big benefit is that any phase quirks become less of an issue, and that's even without aligning them in some way.
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Post by svart on Nov 22, 2022 8:50:06 GMT -6
to answer the original question, yes, probably. The timing difference between a piezo signal and a mic signal could be significant enough to cause a phase issue.
The easiest way to see it is track a few large string plucks and then zoom in on the DAW and see how they are positioned relative to each other. You can nudge one or the other until they align in time. If they are opposite polarity when lined up in time, then flip one of them in polarity.
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Post by mattbroiler on Nov 22, 2022 9:15:28 GMT -6
+1 in this situation I would try replacing the recorded piezo tracks with an acoustic guitar IR
it's not ideal but for sure an improvement over most acoustic guitar pickups
on the positive side there is no bleed so if you like the performance you captured you can manipulate the track afterward
I use the free convolution plugin from Melda and some of the Gibson and Martin IRs from 3Sigma but anything you like will do the trick
as usual there are a zillion options out there just have to find one that works well for you
also agree with Jaba that plugging straight into an amp can sound surprisingly better than I expect it to and often better than the piezo going into a direct input
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Post by schlep on Nov 22, 2022 13:33:45 GMT -6
Hi Guys -
Many great ideas here, both technical and creative. Thanks to everyone for their support !
Craig
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