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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 21, 2022 8:28:28 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Nov 21, 2022 9:04:26 GMT -6
OMG . . . I need this. NEED NEED NEED!!
Only $799 on the pre-order? And 52 volts makes a vintage U87 shine! IYKYK
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 21, 2022 9:19:49 GMT -6
Eric kinda knows his way around gear/design tweaks !
Plus cool retro faceplate!!
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Post by drbill on Nov 21, 2022 9:26:59 GMT -6
Yeah, I want one - or two - for sure. If nothing else - it's a high end quality phantom power unit and every studio needs a couple of channels of that. (My Coils require it when using a condenser). But then....if you take the pill, you can go so much further. Been waiting on this one for awhile. Glad to see Eric's got it under way!!! Bravo Eric!
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Post by svart on Nov 21, 2022 9:29:48 GMT -6
Hmm. Seems like a product searching for a problem to solve.
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Post by gwlee7 on Nov 21, 2022 10:00:11 GMT -6
What would be the advantage of this unit over the 4 channel Coil Phantom supply I already own? Does being able to regulate voltage make that much more of a difference over having steady, clean, 48 volts available?
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Post by EmRR on Nov 21, 2022 10:16:36 GMT -6
Phantom power build out resistors ARE current limiters, they dictate the related voltage drop no matter what's driving them. You can make it softer, you can make it stiffer, but there's not gonna be a huge difference. You can regulate the living shit out of the voltage source, but the actual mic draw across those resistors will still have the same predictable voltage drop.
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Post by Ward on Nov 21, 2022 10:21:41 GMT -6
Hmm. Seems like a product searching for a problem to solve. Dunno about that. An outboard phantom power supply has always been welcome. An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage is more welcome An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage and an HPF missing on some preamps is even more welcome An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage, an HPF forgotten on some designs PLUS some iron you can kick in? That's a product that has been long overdue and answers a lot of "if only" moments some of us have. |
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Post by Ward on Nov 21, 2022 10:23:17 GMT -6
Phantom power build out resistors ARE current limiters, they dictate the related voltage drop no matter what's driving them. You can make it softer, you can make it stiffer, but there's not gonna be a huge difference. You can regulate the living shit out of the voltage source, but the actual mic draw across those resistors will still have the same predictable voltage drop. Variable phantom power to a Neumann U87 and others is like variable or jack-able input impedance to a classic ribbon mic. It does something that ANYONE can hear and appreciate. But again, try and find out. You'll know And when you know, you REALLY know. |
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Post by svart on Nov 21, 2022 10:28:05 GMT -6
Hmm. Seems like a product searching for a problem to solve. Dunno about that. An outboard phantom power supply has always been welcome. An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage is more welcome An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage and an HPF missing on some preamps is even more welcome An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage, an HPF forgotten on some designs PLUS some iron you can kick in? That's a product that has been long overdue and answers a lot of "if only" moments some of us have. I've personally never needed any of those. I still don't know how variable voltage of just a few volts would make a difference. Most condenser mics that don't have some kind of step-up voltage arrangement would have virtually zero voltage swing on the capsule. It's all about charge transfer, not voltage, and that charge would be orders of magnitude smaller than the voltage charging the capsule. This means there would be virtually zero difference in tone between voltage extremes. |
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Post by Locomotive Audio on Nov 21, 2022 11:13:32 GMT -6
Yes, I can understand how this might not be a product for everyone. Producer Will Edwards from Copperline Ranch came to me looking to make him a custom unit to pair with all his vintage pres (which didn't have pads, polarity, high pass, or phantom). He liked the result so much that we felt having all the consolidated tools in the rack really was great. He was able to get rid of all of his barrel pads and small phantom boxes, etc... anyway. The variable voltage thing was just an addon we felt is fun. It can offer 2v to 52v and the result is different on almost every mic, due to their internal design. Some Shure mics even work down to about 2 or 3v... almost flawlessly! Crazy. Anyway, the fun is finding the tipping point of when a mic is basically turning off... you can get some really unique sounds (distorted, weird frequency response, lower headroom, Spitting/sputtering, etc).
I'm sure we will have all kinds of mixed opinions on this, but that's certainly just fine. Oh, and running your mic boosters (cloudlifter, fethead, soyuz launcher, etc) is amazing, especially with sending some padded line level sources through them, all which can be done with both Copperline channels in series.
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Post by drbill on Nov 21, 2022 12:51:36 GMT -6
Yes, I can understand how this might not be a product for everyone. Producer Will Edwards from Copperline Ranch came to me looking to make him a custom unit to pair with all his vintage pres (which didn't have pads, polarity, high pass, or phantom). He liked the result so much that we felt having all the consolidated tools in the rack really was great. He was able to get rid of all of his barrel pads and small phantom boxes, etc... anyway. The variable voltage thing was just an addon we felt is fun. It can offer 2v to 52v and the result is different on almost every mic, due to their internal design. Some Shure mics even work down to about 2 or 3v... almost flawlessly! Crazy. Anyway, the fun is finding the tipping point of when a mic is basically turning off... you can get some really unique sounds (distorted, weird frequency response, lower headroom, Spitting/sputtering, etc). I'm sure we will have all kinds of mixed opinions on this, but that's certainly just fine. Oh, and running your mic boosters (cloudlifter, fethead, soyuz launcher, etc) is amazing, especially with sending some padded line level sources through them, all which can be done with both Copperline channels in series. Thanks Eric!! |
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Post by drbill on Nov 21, 2022 12:53:32 GMT -6
Hmm. Seems like a product searching for a problem to solve. Dunno about that. An outboard phantom power supply has always been welcome. An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage is more welcome An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage and an HPF missing on some preamps is even more welcome An outboard phantom power supply with variable voltage, an HPF forgotten on some designs PLUS some iron you can kick in? That's a product that has been long overdue and answers a lot of "if only" moments some of us have.Ditto. Unique product that solves a variety of problems, and offers additional creative opportunities. Works for me. Plus it looks freaking cool.  PS - we've been experimenting on what a SB sounds like when one of the power rails dies or is in the process of dying. Interesting stuff. LOL. Not exactly subtle or generally desirable, but very cool in certain circumstances. My educated guess is that low phantom voltage is going create similar dystopian craziness in certain mics. Creative options that open up new horizons always interest me. |
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Post by Ward on Nov 21, 2022 13:47:19 GMT -6
Yes, I can understand how this might not be a product for everyone. Producer Will Edwards from Copperline Ranch came to me looking to make him a custom unit to pair with all his vintage pres (which didn't have pads, polarity, high pass, or phantom). He liked the result so much that we felt having all the consolidated tools in the rack really was great. He was able to get rid of all of his barrel pads and small phantom boxes, etc... anyway. The variable voltage thing was just an addon we felt is fun. It can offer 2v to 52v and the result is different on almost every mic, due to their internal design. Some Shure mics even work down to about 2 or 3v... almost flawlessly! Crazy. Anyway, the fun is finding the tipping point of when a mic is basically turning off... you can get some really unique sounds (distorted, weird frequency response, lower headroom, Spitting/sputtering, etc). I'm sure we will have all kinds of mixed opinions on this, but that's certainly just fine. Oh, and running your mic boosters (cloudlifter, fethead, soyuz launcher, etc) is amazing, especially with sending some padded line level sources through them, all which can be done with both Copperline channels in series. I have a thought on a Mark 2 version of this: a 10db and 20 db gain boost (a preamp to a preamp as such). So with a really low distant mic'ing application you can goose the signal going into the preamp by 10 20 or 20 db. No attenuator... just a straight J-Fet booster circuit. and both switches off means it is out of the circuitry. So you can have 0 10 20 or 30 db gain boosts. put the switches just beneath the attenuator n each channel.   |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083 
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Post by ericn on Nov 21, 2022 14:50:54 GMT -6
Yes, I can understand how this might not be a product for everyone. Producer Will Edwards from Copperline Ranch came to me looking to make him a custom unit to pair with all his vintage pres (which didn't have pads, polarity, high pass, or phantom). He liked the result so much that we felt having all the consolidated tools in the rack really was great. He was able to get rid of all of his barrel pads and small phantom boxes, etc... anyway. The variable voltage thing was just an addon we felt is fun. It can offer 2v to 52v and the result is different on almost every mic, due to their internal design. Some Shure mics even work down to about 2 or 3v... almost flawlessly! Crazy. Anyway, the fun is finding the tipping point of when a mic is basically turning off... you can get some really unique sounds (distorted, weird frequency response, lower headroom, Spitting/sputtering, etc). I'm sure we will have all kinds of mixed opinions on this, but that's certainly just fine. Oh, and running your mic boosters (cloudlifter, fethead, soyuz launcher, etc) is amazing, especially with sending some padded line level sources through them, all which can be done with both Copperline channels in series. Eric It most definitely is a niche product, definitely not for everyone but for 2ch at that price I see a bunch of people giving it a try. Nice to see someone’s custom request available for everyone. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Nov 21, 2022 16:12:09 GMT -6
I hope my question wasn’t taken as throwing shade. I am legit interested in how it would have been different.
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Post by Locomotive Audio on Nov 21, 2022 16:14:33 GMT -6
Yes, I can understand how this might not be a product for everyone. Producer Will Edwards from Copperline Ranch came to me looking to make him a custom unit to pair with all his vintage pres (which didn't have pads, polarity, high pass, or phantom). He liked the result so much that we felt having all the consolidated tools in the rack really was great. He was able to get rid of all of his barrel pads and small phantom boxes, etc... anyway. The variable voltage thing was just an addon we felt is fun. It can offer 2v to 52v and the result is different on almost every mic, due to their internal design. Some Shure mics even work down to about 2 or 3v... almost flawlessly! Crazy. Anyway, the fun is finding the tipping point of when a mic is basically turning off... you can get some really unique sounds (distorted, weird frequency response, lower headroom, Spitting/sputtering, etc). I'm sure we will have all kinds of mixed opinions on this, but that's certainly just fine. Oh, and running your mic boosters (cloudlifter, fethead, soyuz launcher, etc) is amazing, especially with sending some padded line level sources through them, all which can be done with both Copperline channels in series. Eric It most definitely is a niche product, definitely not for everyone but for 2ch at that price I see a bunch of people giving it a try. Nice to see someone’s custom request available for everyone. Thanks Eric... Much appreciated! It was certainly a fun product to design. :-) |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 21, 2022 18:31:00 GMT -6
I'd love to hear a sample with standard phantom power and one dialed in to perfection..
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Post by drbill on Nov 21, 2022 21:14:15 GMT -6
I'd love to hear a sample with standard phantom power and one dialed in to perfection.. Martin - I think generally speaking, it's more about driving one into destruction. . Or maybe not "destruction". Think tonal options. |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 22, 2022 2:25:18 GMT -6
I'd love to hear a sample with standard phantom power and one dialed in to perfection.. I had a BLUE Bottle mic system and the power supply had a variable phantom voltage control. It went from under well 48v to 60v IIRC. In truth, I could never hear it doing much of any significance so in the end I left it on 48 volts. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 22, 2022 10:59:04 GMT -6
My understanding was that having a separate and controllable phantom power system would enable you to find the perfect setting to get the most from your mic. Much like medications, perhaps the in the in-between dosage is what would be best, I assumed that could be true of mics.
Let's say you use this with 3 or 4 mics on different occasions. If using it didn't clearly improve tone quality, what is the point? If it's just to change the tone, essentially messing it up, I'd much rather do that with other methods.
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Post by drbill on Nov 22, 2022 14:33:30 GMT -6
My understanding was that having a separate and controllable phantom power system would enable you to find the perfect setting to get the most from your mic. Much like medications, perhaps the in the in-between dosage is what would be best, I assumed that could be true of mics. Let's say you use this with 3 or 4 mics on different occasions. If using it didn't clearly improve tone quality, what is the point? If it's just to change the tone, essentially messing it up, I'd much rather do that with other methods. Martin - IME, quality and stable power for ANY kind of audio gear is essential to great sound. Many units - including virtually all interfaces with mic pre's - are capable of good to great and stable 48v. So you may not NEED it. Personally, I want the peace of mind of great and stable 48v going to my mics and knowing Locomotive and Eric, I'm confident the Copperline will do that without me having to think about it. And that right there is a win for me. Regulated and exacting power are always wins for me. (Spent more time listening and helping design Supplies than I ever want to think about again LOL) Ever check the 48v delivery on your mic when it takes a huge BD hit?. I haven't because I don't want to think about that kind of stuff. I know what it does to beefy power amps THD and driving speakers though. Power is essential and the very soul of audio. The Coil phantom unit is another great option for 48v as well, although it doesn't come with any other tricks the Copperline has. The 48v is certainly the most important thing - but it's just the starting point. From there, the options start to expand. I'm going to have to take Ward 's advice on running a U87 at 52v and it sounding better. I've never tried it myself. But certainly, different impedances, and voltages that drive your condenser can seriously change the "tone". The first time I experienced the impedance thing was with the GT ViPre. That could make a U87 sound uber modern and wonderful, or like a 1940's grungy RCA ribbon. Both interesting and useful. But not something most mic pre's were capable of. A creative production tool that seems to have developed a cult status now that it's out of production. In my understanding, that's the direction Eric @locomotive Audio took the Copperline in. Creative tweaking. Plus, as mentioned earlier, it gives you a bunch of really great options that many mic pre's do not give. A great amount of Filter options, different Impedance inputs, a variety of pads, the ability to "mute", etc.. Good stuff. It's probably not for everyone, but it's a creative Swiss army knife for mics and mic pre's IMO. Plus, it's got cool meters and is ORANGE!!! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 22, 2022 15:58:06 GMT -6
I completely get the peace of mind issue. That's exactly why I usually have upgraded cabling. Sometimes you definitely hear an improvement, sometimes not. But I know I'm getting the most out of my gear this way.
The thing is, I'm not the greatest engineer, so I keep things bone simple. Perhaps in the hands of better engineers than me this would be a great tool. For me, if I want some tonal change, I'd use a saturation plug-in or mess with the sound on an aux channel and blend it in.
I can appreciate having this as an option though. If I had anywhere near the gear that a proper studio has, I'd get one of these just to be sure. The way Chandler REDD's preamp drive circuit works can be very interesting musically. I imagine this could have a similar effect.
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 22, 2022 16:42:24 GMT -6
My understanding was that having a separate and controllable phantom power system would enable you to find the perfect setting to get the most from your mic. Much like medications, perhaps the in the in-between dosage is what would be best, I assumed that could be true of mics. Let's say you use this with 3 or 4 mics on different occasions. If using it didn't clearly improve tone quality, what is the point? If it's just to change the tone, essentially messing it up, I'd much rather do that with other methods. Personally, I want the peace of mind of great and stable 48v going to my mics and knowing Locomotive and Eric, I'm confident the Copperline will do that without me having to think about it. I've been recording for 40+ years and I've never once had to think about 48v phantom coming out of LFC's, medium sized desks, my toob mic PSU's, BAE 1073's, Millennia pre's, AEA pre's etc etc etc .... I've never heard any detriment to mic signal due to phantom power faltering. In fact I have a little Radial Stage Bug that delivers 48V to two mics and cost $150 (I use it with my Coil CA-70) .... I've had it on a bench to test the supply, and it's rock solid and delivers more than enough current for any swings pulled on by a mic getting hit by heavy SPL's. I can see if you need phantom power and desire some variable phantom power to experiment with, and the other various features it offers, then this Copperline unit is going to be very useful. Buying it because I should be worried about standard phantom power letting me down .... you're not going to convince me of that :-) |
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Post by drbill on Nov 22, 2022 18:15:43 GMT -6
Personally, I want the peace of mind of great and stable 48v going to my mics and knowing Locomotive and Eric, I'm confident the Copperline will do that without me having to think about it. I've been recording for 40+ years and I've never once had to think about 48v phantom coming out of LFC's, medium sized desks, my toob mic PSU's, BAE 1073's, Millennia pre's, AEA pre's etc etc etc .... I've never heard any detriment to mic signal due to phantom power faltering. In fact I have a little Radial Stage Bug that delivers 48V to two mics and cost $150 (I use it with my Coil CA-70) .... I've had it on a bench to test the supply, and it's rock solid and delivers more than enough current for any swings pulled on by a mic getting hit by heavy SPL's. I can see if you need phantom power and desire some variable phantom power to experiment with, and the other various features it offers, then this Copperline unit is going to be very useful. Buying it because I should be worried about standard phantom power letting me down .... you're not going to convince me of that :-) How about because I have 4-6 channels of pre's that don't have phantom then? |
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