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Post by plinker on Nov 18, 2022 21:16:12 GMT -6
I'm going into some black magic, voodoo shit here...
Given the massive experience of this forum, does anyone believe that: - consoles had/have a sound that is unique to them, and the resulting music? That is, can you tell that a song was recorded and mixed on a particular console?
- running all channels through the same preamp and mixing through the same line-amp mimics a console sound? - I realize that mixing in-the-box is virtually the same as running all channels through the same line-amps.
- (conversely) running all channels through different preamp stages results in something that is cacophonous -- multiple personality disorder?
Thoughts, feelings, emojis?
Personally, I think that running everything through the same <insert processing box> would probably achieve something similar to running everything through the same console, but I'm really curious what the pros have to say!
Thanks, folks! (note: I would never post this POS question on GS ;-) )
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Post by tkaitkai on Nov 18, 2022 21:48:21 GMT -6
Cool thread. I'll chime in here, but should also note my experience with consoles is pretty limited. I definitely think mixing on a console results in a sound that is VERY hard to reproduce, especially ITB. Analog summing/hybrid mixing can get you something similar, but still not quite the same. There's a certain cohesion/realism from consoles that you just can't get any other way. That said, this in no way means that the console sound is objectively superior. It's just different. One of my favorite producers I've worked with used to mix on an SSL 4KE. He's since switched to a hybrid/analog summing setup at his house, and his latest work actually sounds better. You can tell it's not a console, but it honestly doesn't matter. On a related note, this thread has inspired me to try printing some stems through my Wunder and see what happens. Who knows — maybe I don't need to drop $40,000 on a Wunderbar after all.  |
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Post by plinker on Nov 18, 2022 21:51:01 GMT -6
Tkaitkai: "One of my favorite producers I've worked with used to mix on an SSL 4KE. He's since switched to a hybrid/analog summing setup at his house, and his latest work actually sounds better. You can tell it's not a console, but it honestly doesn't matter."
Thanks for this feedback. Really interesting!
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 18, 2022 22:49:36 GMT -6
I loved mixing on a console. For me stuff just was easier and faster to come together on a console.
I can never afford one. But would do it if I could. They totally have a soul, a sound, a character, and impart that. It's subtle at first but the more intimate you get with it the more its mind blowing.
I think it would surprise most people how much big label top tier music is actually mixed through consoles still or recorded or both. Not that there aren't tons of great ITB stuff. And hybrid is honestly the best workflow wise. But man, consoles are just fun.
And they also are expensive, pain to maintain, power hungry bricks.
But so awesome.
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Post by damoongo on Nov 18, 2022 23:12:49 GMT -6
Not all consoles are created equal. Can't really talk about "console sound". Console workflow maybe.
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Post by drumsound on Nov 19, 2022 1:01:04 GMT -6
I use my Neotek pres for most things. It's not the most colorful console, but it's solid and rarely sounds unpleasing. Anymore I do mix ITB, summed out through the console. I like quickly muting things or just turning things up to see if I like it, and then replicating ITB if it's working. I mix through an analog bus compressor, and sometimes still use outboard effects, which I record back into PT for recalls.
One thing I do enjoy doing is loading up the same channel strip on all the tracks ITB at the beginning of a mix. It does seem to add some of that continuity that I like about a console. I've done it a few times with the UAD API Vision and only using different dynamics or EQ if I wasn't getting what I was after, the same way I would on that console (if I had a chance to mix on one). I have a teenage band that has a very Nirvana vibe, and I think I'm gonna try to be Andy Wallace and put SSL strips across everything.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 19, 2022 1:37:04 GMT -6
@ blackdog “It's subtle at first but the more intimate you get with it the more its mind blowing.” Hmmm ?  |
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 19, 2022 2:28:50 GMT -6
@ blackdog “It's subtle at first but the more intimate you get with it the more its mind blowing.” Hmmm ? This is just my take on it, and really all analog gear for that matter. Each piece has a sweet spot where it likes to work. You don't know that at first. So on a console you'd do something and be like, yeah okay I guess that's better? or maybe you'd be like yeah thats nice! But once you learn the sweet spot that the buss likes to be pushed and sit at and each channel gain staging ect. It becomes "WOW" factor. You have to do this will all outboard gear IMO. Then it's always fun to push said device outside of its sweet/comfort spot and see what you get. The more I worked on a particular console the more I loved it as I learned how to mix with it. Which is like "thanks capt'n obvious, no shit" but seriously. It makes a big difference. Then stuff just sounds so effortless. It's great. |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 19, 2022 3:23:09 GMT -6
Yes, but only if it's a Neve 88RS :-)
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 19, 2022 5:28:05 GMT -6
@blackdog i agree, was just poking fun at your choice of words. I had a little modded delta for awhile and appreciated it but also learned, I’m lazy so would want a board with recall!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2022 6:48:39 GMT -6
I'd open this subject to desks in general, I've used a fair few consoles / LFACS / desks in my time and even looked into buying another last year. Some degrade the sound in pleasent ways, some have their own variety of "clean" aka SSL 9K's, RND and even my Big Six. Although some of them sound pretty much the same as an audio interface, I mean you must have golden ears to tell. There's usually very obvious telltale signs that a certain type of console (meaning those that purposely avoids sounding like an audio interface) has been used, generally I find a small loss in terms of centre focus but higher amounts of seperation and width also there's various forms of baked in harmonic distortion. As someone else said legacy desks usually have a sweetspot, today however harmonic distortion and various (somewhat?) unwanted factors have been greatly reduced, headroom is generally ridiculous even the Six has +27dBU. That doesn't mean they sound the same though, I had a look into the Neve 8424 and that certainly didn't sound anything like an SSL Origin for example. Now, you do raise an interesting question Plinker. IME a pre-amp / line amp alone isn't probably enough but a channel strip with transformers etc.?! The RND Shelford for example comes pretty close and I've found plenty of options for widening / seperating a mix without destroying it. There's a few neat tricks you can do with UA's Chandler Curve Bender plugin and there's plenty of HW or SW 2-bus solutions out there. That being said inserting the Big Six into equation definitely imparts its own sound that I couldn't recreate without it, as tkaitkai said it's not necessarily better but it's certainly different. I'd love to have a full blown console again but I really can't justify the price at this point, also console reflections suck. I'm happy with my sort of hybrid solution and it does work better for me. Never say never though.. |
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Post by bchurch on Nov 19, 2022 7:05:08 GMT -6
There's one thing that can really be said for the console workflow I feel is often overlooked with todays hybrid / ITB patchwork quilt of processing:
When you track or mix through a board, you're using the same mic/line amps, the same EQ circuit, and (for those who've mixed a lot on SSL) the same dynamics. I have personally found an advantage, especially with cutting a whole bunch of live instruments at once / mixing of things 'gelling' much better. When the kick and snare are through an API, the overheads are through Neve, room mics are through Focusrite, etc., you have all these mismatched types of circuitry. The mics just start sounding alien to teach other and you are leaning on additional hardware to try and pull it together.
And that's not exclusive to working analog, either. People do it with plugins as well.
Despite it being a sometimes abusive relationship, I swear by the Cubase Pro channel strip's functionality - and maybe this is just the years mixing on SSL talking, but I'll use the native channel processing unless there's a significant creative or technical reason not to. It just seems to snap the puzzle pieces together for me much better than emulating forty different eq's and comps at once and hoping I can fix it with the subgroups and master bus processing.
Would I put a console in my space again? Ehhhh.... probably not. The only thing out there that I could see myself using would be the SSL Duality Fuse, and I don't have a six figure console budget - to say nothing of the fact that the footprint makes long DAW edit sessions hurt my eyes just thinking about it. Still, thirty two sticks of the same exact signal path does sound nice. Maybe a Trident 88... I don't know. All it takes is a few half hour recall-by-hand sessions to quickly remember that we only think back on the high notes.
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Post by bchurch on Nov 19, 2022 7:16:24 GMT -6
Blackdawg " And they also are expensive, pain to maintain, power hungry bricks." Hear, hear. I had a guy referred to me who really, really wanted to put a console in his studio. He was of some fiscal means, the source of which I could only guess was something nefarious given his entire portfolio being latter-day mumble rap-type work. He really wanted a Neve (which he pronounced like "Neve" as in "Neve Campbell", if that gives you any insight into his bona fides) because 'they have this really phat sound'. Now, I don't disagree that there are quite a few Neve consoles out there that do, in fact, sound.... ugh.... "phat". But the overwhelming majority of them, RND 50XX being the exception, are fairly long in the tooth and require constant TLC and the occasional visit from the DEA, wondering why one address is consuming 20x the electricity of their neighbors. What the guy really wanted was Instagrammable 'wow' factor for his merry band of rappers, all of whom I should assume have "Lil'" at the front of their artist name. Ultimately I steered him towards a control surface. Motorized faders, big footprint, dancing lights on the meter bridge - check, check, check. When the entire mix is a YouTube beat and a few vocals, there's not a whole lot a "nev" can do for you. (smh)
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Post by drbill on Nov 19, 2022 8:35:45 GMT -6
also console reflections suck. Aaaand - there you have it. Console reflections suck. That's the reason I went extreme hybrid with a nice Sterling Modular mastering desk in the new (well...now not so new anymore) mix room. I wanted the room to be as great and as accurate as it could be. Due to some weird circumstances, I got to hear my previous room without any gear in it right in the middle of a big project, and not having my LFAC in the room made my jaw drop hard enough to almost crack the concrete floor. After having and mixing in that room almost 20 years, I was dumbstruck. Most never hear the difference between having the desk in the room, and not having it. I never had. It was enough to make me re-think my preconceived notions and end up outside the box on the new build. I had a year or two to think about it during planning stages, and ultimately went hybrid and sold the console. I will say that if I was tracking every day, the decision might have been different. Consoles are great for that application. For me, mixing hybrid has been a huge jump forward. And now I've got things so I've got about 95-100% instant recall on my mixes. Loving it, but still miss the PHYSICAL console "thing" from time to time. I will always love consoles. Mostly in someone else room. |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 19, 2022 9:39:11 GMT -6
No wonder I ended up with the smallest Mackie VLZ then. (Onyx I'll have you know) Only purchased after a high degree of reflection. Chris |
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Post by bchurch on Nov 19, 2022 9:58:31 GMT -6
No wonder I ended up with the smallest Mackie VLZ then. (Onyx I'll have you know) Only purchased after a high degree of reflection. Chris When I saw that there was a plug-in emulating the Mackie 8-bus channel strip, I died a little inside. More so than the usual Thursday. |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 19, 2022 10:05:24 GMT -6
That's the thing about anything designed by Bob Mackie. Goes in and out of fashion. OK guys, I will hearby cease and desist from further Mackie Mayhem! So what IS the best Console, under $100K? (Gets popcorn ready and puts on "Radar Love" ) |
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Post by bchurch on Nov 19, 2022 10:35:59 GMT -6
So what IS the best Console, under $100K? (Gets popcorn ready and puts on "Radar Love" ) Question answered with a Question: "Define best" Are we talking pure sonics? DAW control / integration? Good routing, internal automation, recall, or other bells and whistles? If I had the $<99,999 to drop right now, there's a slightly loved Duality Fuse on a few diff. reseller sites (incl. Reverb!) that I'd have in a heartbeat. And that's not just for mixing either - the VHD preamps are really quite good, you can rub a little dirt on that overly pristine sound to taste. Switchable 232/42 EQ curves AND 4k-g channel dynamics on every input. That's a LOT of console. But you can get a pretty mean all-analog monster for under six figs. API 2448 or a Wunderbar would eat that budget and not leave much left for cabling, patchbays or stands... I've not worked on the Wunderbar, but they certainly seem to have a lot of people who sing their praises. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Nov 19, 2022 10:50:18 GMT -6
So what IS the best Console, under $100K? (Gets popcorn ready and puts on "Radar Love" ) *cough* |
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Post by drumsound on Nov 19, 2022 10:57:35 GMT -6
There's one thing that can really be said for the console workflow I feel is often overlooked with todays hybrid / ITB patchwork quilt of processing: When you track or mix through a board, you're using the same mic/line amps, the same EQ circuit, and (for those who've mixed a lot on SSL) the same dynamics. I have personally found an advantage, especially with cutting a whole bunch of live instruments at once / mixing of things 'gelling' much better. When the kick and snare are through an API, the overheads are through Neve, room mics are through Focusrite, etc., you have all these mismatched types of circuitry. The mics just start sounding alien to teach other and you are leaning on additional hardware to try and pull it together.
And that's not exclusive to working analog, either. People do it with plugins as well. Despite it being a sometimes abusive relationship, I swear by the Cubase Pro channel strip's functionality - and maybe this is just the years mixing on SSL talking, but I'll use the native channel processing unless there's a significant creative or technical reason not to. It just seems to snap the puzzle pieces together for me much better than emulating forty different eq's and comps at once and hoping I can fix it with the subgroups and master bus processing. "The mics just sound alien to each other" is such a perfect way to put it. I heard it and cut down on outboard pres years ago. And even things I really liked about projects that I KNOW where done that way have that almost collage feel. One pre feels more like a painting. I think music is abstract, and I like it to feel like a painting. No wonder I ended up with the smallest Mackie VLZ then. (Onyx I'll have you know) Only purchased after a high degree of reflection. Chris When I saw that there was a plug-in emulating the Mackie 8-bus channel strip, I died a little inside. More so than the usual Thursday. UGH, is that really a thing? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 19, 2022 11:03:15 GMT -6
That's the thing about anything designed by Bob Mackie. Goes in and out of fashion. OK guys, I will hearby cease and desist from further Mackie Mayhem! So what IS the best Console, under $100K? (Gets popcorn ready and puts on "Radar Love" ) The obvious answer, the one in the best condition that can easily be transported and supported in your area. |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 19, 2022 13:01:13 GMT -6
[/quote]UGH, is that really a thing? [/quote] Sorry to say Tony. But... IT LIVES!! (At least the last time powered up) Add the Al Jolson Signature Edition ADAT, and you're all set. It's even "Fletcher" approved! Chris |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 19, 2022 13:58:20 GMT -6
No wonder I ended up with the smallest Mackie VLZ then. (Onyx I'll have you know) Only purchased after a high degree of reflection. Chris When I saw that there was a plug-in emulating the Mackie 8-bus channel strip, I died a little inside. More so than the usual Thursday. To paraphrase an old commercial : this is developers brain on drugs. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Nov 19, 2022 14:00:37 GMT -6
That's the thing about anything designed by Bob Mackie. Goes in and out of fashion. OK guys, I will hearby cease and desist from further Mackie Mayhem! So what IS the best Console, under $100K? (Gets popcorn ready and puts on "Radar Love" ) Well My RADAR loves my DDA! It sort of gives it that Midas touch, you know that golden butter for your popcorn 😁 |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 19, 2022 14:22:58 GMT -6
I only run my Onyx through Lynx.
Otherwise it stinks.
Chris
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