|
|
Post by sparqee on Nov 7, 2022 8:25:15 GMT -6
I've heard that you can use Blue Cat's Patchwork plugin host to run old plugins on new M1 Macs.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 9:07:23 GMT -6
I've heard that you can use Blue Cat's Patchwork plugin host to run old plugins on new M1 Macs. You can, but there are a couple of big caveats. I'm pretty sure Blue Cat is using Apple's API to the Rosetta 2 emulator--the same API used by Apple Logic. This provides a little sandbox that the plugin runs inside of. But Rosetta 2 will go away in time, just like Rosetta 1 did in Apple's move from Power processors to Intel. However long that might be is a an open question. But whenever it happens, you'll be stranded again. The other thing to keep in mind is that any sessions you've saved with an unsupported plugin (let's use Excalibur as an example) won't load when the Rosetta versions of your DAW go away. Not even if you're using Blue Cat. If you've loaded Excalibur into a session using Blue Cat, then it should restore and work fine---until Rosetta 2 goes away. |
|
|
|
Post by centralpark on Nov 7, 2022 15:41:52 GMT -6
As the original perpetrator of Exponential Audio, I want to thank you personally for not calling me out on this thread (it's different in other places). I can understand why people are upset but don't understand you being the target of blame. Big corporations are going to act like big corporations. Lexicon PCM Native I used for years, had it in all my projects. Then saw that was being abandoned so looked for an alternative, admired your work so picked the Exponential stuff. And now it's like "damn, all of those projects based on exponential audio, if I want to update in the future, will need their reverbs replaced." I didn't need new features on PCM Native and the same with the Exponential plugins. Just keep it compatible with OS changes and I would have paid a fee every few years when those updates were needed. Absolutely no chance I continue with Izotope. That's a company that cannot be trusted. A sometimes unappreciated consideration when buying a plugin is, "Will this company burn me in the future?" With Izotope the answer is clearly yes. It's obvious PCM Native was abandoned years ago, yet is still sold. Izotope knew Exponential Audio stuff was getting canned a while back, yet still sold it. If an audio plugin is for something minor, then maybe a company can be more cavalier with its future, but with something like reverb - that's really the center of a lot of projects. It gets used on everything and everywhere. Sorry to vent. Not upset with you, just the companies that have your work - which I loved. Those products all deserved an eternal life imo. They will always sound great. Thank you for all your work and coming to message boards to speak up. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
|
Post by ericn on Nov 7, 2022 15:58:52 GMT -6
Hey guys, As the original perpetrator of Exponential Audio, I want to thank you personally for not calling me out on this thread (it's different in other places). I've taken the position that I will not comment on the rightness or wrongness of Izotope/Soundwide's sunsetting of my old products. I'm almost--but not quite--an innocent bystander in this matter. I'm really glad that they've taken Stratus/Symphony forward, and I really hope they find a way to port one or two of the others. I'm going to miss Excalibur. It's been a little more than four years since I sold the company, and over two since I retired (I'd stayed on with Izotope as something of a consultant). I still have friends there and I continue to explore ideas about what they might do with the plugs. At this point, I think the odds are against us (I say us, because I'm just a user now, like some of you). I would strongly recommend that you do your best to navigate Izotope's website. I can comment about that: it's really a dog's breakfast--an utter mess. If you can't find offers, then don't be afraid to contact support. I do know that they want to make going over to Stratus/Symphony easy and relatively affordable. Don't be afraid to bargain if you're really affected. Just be nice. Michael Micheal, as always a class act. I can’t imagine why you would get thrown under the bus for this. Of course we all know most of these guys would sell us an all original mint 1176 that was in fact a KT in a prettier case and than wash their hands of us. I don’t think people understand how things work, hell if anything I would expect you to feel some what injured by the products you pored your heart and soul into being shelved! Stay classy |
|
|
|
Post by bossanova on Nov 7, 2022 17:33:12 GMT -6
As the original perpetrator of Exponential Audio, I want to thank you personally for not calling me out on this thread (it's different in other places). I can understand why people are upset but don't understand you being the target of blame. Big corporations are going to act like big corporations. Lexicon PCM Native I used for years, had it in all my projects. Then saw that was being abandoned so looked for an alternative, admired your work so picked the Exponential stuff. And now it's like "damn, all of those projects based on exponential audio, if I want to update in the future, will need their reverbs replaced." I didn't need new features on PCM Native and the same with the Exponential plugins. Just keep it compatible with OS changes and I would have paid a fee every few years when those updates were needed. Absolutely no chance I continue with Izotope. That's a company that cannot be trusted. A sometimes unappreciated consideration when buying a plugin is, "Will this company burn me in the future?" With Izotope the answer is clearly yes. It's obvious PCM Native was abandoned years ago, yet is still sold. Izotope knew Exponential Audio stuff was getting canned a while back, yet still sold it. If an audio plugin is for something minor, then maybe a company can be more cavalier with its future, but with something like reverb - that's really the center of a lot of projects. It gets used on everything and everywhere. Sorry to vent. Not upset with you, just the companies that have your work - which I loved. Those products all deserved an eternal life imo. They will always sound great. Thank you for all your work and coming to message boards to speak up. In retrospect, I wonder if iZotope planned that they could get some cash and expand their user base by selling the Exp plugs at clearance prices for a couple years, then hook at least some of those users into upping to Stratus and Symphony once the stereo verbs were finally discontinued. |
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Nov 7, 2022 17:50:03 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 7, 2022 17:55:04 GMT -6
I can understand why people are upset <<<SNIP>>> Not directed at you centralpark , but at the "upsetness" in general - just quoted you as you brought it up. I have a great suggestion to those upset - BUY HARDWARE!!! Computers become obsolete, OS's become obsolete, programs and apps become obsolete, formats become obsolete, plugins become obsolete. Deal with it, or don't and get upset, but if you're upset - be upset at yourself for buying something that was going to, I mean 1000%, become obsolete. Maybe not this year, maybe not next, but SOME time for sure. I've still got my 1950's KM53's. Still working FABULOUS, and worth a zillion times more than whatever the person who bought them originally paid. Worth 8X's what I paid for them what seems like a few years ago now. Early 80's U87? Just as killer as the day I bought it in the late 80's. My beloved SCI Prophet 5 (1981) and Jupiter 6 (1983-ish) that I bought in the 80's - ROCKING! Every day. And both worth a small fortune. Hardware lasts and doesn't become "obsolete". Broken maybe, but most things can be fixed. And....you get too use them while they almost certainly appreciate in value. Plugins....haha!!! In actual reality, they are as disposable as toilet paper. Here today, gone tomorrow. Computers and software are designed to entice the buyers, and then go obsolete as fast as possible so they can charge you again for either an upgrade or a new piece. michael Carnes - thanks for the hardware AND the software!!! Have loved both. Your creations helped shape modern music. Ironically, I still have your software, but sold the hardware. LOL. (480L, PCM96, etc.). But, I'm not upset about it. When the plugins end of life, I'll either jettison the plugs, or stay put on that computer / OS. (I've done it before.....) |
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Nov 7, 2022 19:26:22 GMT -6
I can understand why people are upset <<<SNIP>>> Not directed at you centralpark , but at the "upsetness" in general - just quoted you as you brought it up. I have a great suggestion to those upset - BUY HARDWARE!!! Computers become obsolete, OS's become obsolete, programs and apps become obsolete, formats become obsolete, plugins become obsolete. Deal with it, or don't and get upset, but if you're upset - be upset at yourself for buying something that was going to, I mean 1000%, become obsolete. Maybe not this year, maybe not next, but SOME time for sure. I've still got my 1950's KM53's. Still working FABULOUS, and worth a zillion times more than whatever the person who bought them originally paid. Worth 8X's what I paid for them what seems like a few years ago now. Early 80's U87? Just as killer as the day I bought it in the late 80's. My beloved SCI Prophet 5 (1981) and Jupiter 6 (1983-ish) that I bought in the 80's - ROCKING! Every day. And both worth a small fortune. Hardware lasts and doesn't become "obsolete". Broken maybe, but most things can be fixed. And....you get too use them while they almost certainly appreciate in value. Plugins....haha!!! In actual reality, they are as disposable as toilet paper. Here today, gone tomorrow. Computers and software are designed to entice the buyers, and then go obsolete as fast as possible so they can charge you again for either an upgrade or a new piece. michael Carnes - thanks for the hardware AND the software!!! Have loved both. Your creations helped shape modern music. Ironically, I still have your software, but sold the hardware. LOL. (480L, PCM96, etc.). But, I'm not upset about it. When the plugins end of life, I'll either jettison the plugs, or stay put on that computer / OS. (I've done it before.....) While your argument is totally sound, drbill, reverb is one of the few places where it's more complicated, IMO. I'd love to buy a couple of old reverb boxes, but those will also break at some point, and it's getting harder and harder (impossible in some cases) to fix them. Not like analog gear where you can find somebody to fix it when it goes down. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 20:47:26 GMT -6
In retrospect, I wonder if iZotope planned that they could get some cash and expand their user base by selling the Exp plugs at clearance prices for a couple years, then hook at least some of those users into upping to Stratus and Symphony once the stereo verbs were finally discontinued. For what it's worth, Stratus and Symphony ARE stereo reverbs if that's what you need. I wrote them so that if you bring them up in a stereo track, they're stereo verbs (w stereo meters, etc). if you bring them up in a 5.1 track, they're 5.1. If you bring them up in 7.1.2 or quad, LCR, etc, then that's what they are. You don't have to do anything special. The CPU load is relative to the number of channels in your track. If you're in surround or immersive formats, you'll see a few more parameters that you won't see in stereo. I made them so that if you've created a user preset in stereo, it's going to work fine in any other format (and vice-versa). Lots of plugs you'll see have different forms for each channel format. That always bugged me. Why not make one version of the plug that will work anywhere you need it to work? So that's what I did. So even if I'm working in stereo, I'll use Stratus and/or Symphony. They're the best reverbs I ever wrote, so that's what I reach for. So if you can get a good upgrade deal from Izotope (or any plugin site that sells Expo), you might consider grabbing them--even if you're never going to go past two channels. And as I said earlier, I think Izotope might be flexible with their upgrade pricing if you reach them in person. I still know a lot of people over there and they're good folks. |
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Nov 7, 2022 20:55:52 GMT -6
I've always said that we don't really own software, we only rent it. And sometimes renters get evicted.
|
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Nov 7, 2022 21:09:06 GMT -6
Not directed at you centralpark , but at the "upsetness" in general - just quoted you as you brought it up. I have a great suggestion to those upset - BUY HARDWARE!!! Computers become obsolete, OS's become obsolete, programs and apps become obsolete, formats become obsolete, plugins become obsolete. Deal with it, or don't and get upset, but if you're upset - be upset at yourself for buying something that was going to, I mean 1000%, become obsolete. Maybe not this year, maybe not next, but SOME time for sure. I've still got my 1950's KM53's. Still working FABULOUS, and worth a zillion times more than whatever the person who bought them originally paid. Worth 8X's what I paid for them what seems like a few years ago now. Early 80's U87? Just as killer as the day I bought it in the late 80's. My beloved SCI Prophet 5 (1981) and Jupiter 6 (1983-ish) that I bought in the 80's - ROCKING! Every day. And both worth a small fortune. Hardware lasts and doesn't become "obsolete". Broken maybe, but most things can be fixed. And....you get too use them while they almost certainly appreciate in value. Plugins....haha!!! In actual reality, they are as disposable as toilet paper. Here today, gone tomorrow. Computers and software are designed to entice the buyers, and then go obsolete as fast as possible so they can charge you again for either an upgrade or a new piece. michael Carnes - thanks for the hardware AND the software!!! Have loved both. Your creations helped shape modern music. Ironically, I still have your software, but sold the hardware. LOL. (480L, PCM96, etc.). But, I'm not upset about it. When the plugins end of life, I'll either jettison the plugs, or stay put on that computer / OS. (I've done it before.....) While your argument is totally sound, drbill , reverb is one of the few places where it's more complicated, IMO. I'd love to buy a couple of old reverb boxes, but those will also break at some point, and it's getting harder and harder (impossible in some cases) to fix them. Not like analog gear where you can find somebody to fix it when it goes down. Well said. I run hybrid these days, and while I love hardware the price to install hardware EQs, comps, reverbs and delays for every channel would be impossible for my studio budget. Not to mention that I have no desire to return to the days of all analog and zero software mix recall. This thread confirms to me that I need to continue to only buy plugins when they're on sale. And if I have concerns about future access to projects perhaps I should be printing and archiving reverb only tracks. In other words, saving projects in every way possible that are future proof and less susceptible to obsolete plugins. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 7, 2022 21:27:57 GMT -6
While your argument is totally sound, drbill , reverb is one of the few places where it's more complicated, IMO. I'd love to buy a couple of old reverb boxes, but those will also break at some point, and it's getting harder and harder (impossible in some cases) to fix them. Not like analog gear where you can find somebody to fix it when it goes down. Yeah, totally. I get that. One of the reasons I sold my 480L. Just not easily repairable anymore. Totally legit. <thumbsup>. Still, to view plugins as anything more than disposable is short sighted. I view them as rent-ables that keep my DAW going. Sooner or later they are gone. There are exceptions to the rule though. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 7, 2022 21:36:00 GMT -6
And if I have concerns about future access to projects perhaps I should be printing and archiving reverb only tracks. YES!! I just finished up with a MASSIVE new template that allows me to make my very large hybrid setup 100% instantly recallable. It took a lot of work, but at this stage (especially after the lightning strike that took out a bunch of gear / hardware), I'm printing ALL hardware and software to "print" tracks post automated tracks, and then to stems. I'm tired of not having an older version of a plugin, or having sold a piece of hardware, or even something as simple as needing to reach up and turn controls for recall. I want it reliable in 25 years, and instantly recallable NOW - either tomorrow or next year. Printing post automated tracks is really the best way to do that. I can backwards step from final mix, to stems, to print tracks, to automated tracks to MIDI tracks in reverse - however I need to and it's all simple (well, OK, maybe not so simple, but it's elegant once implemented). Even working this way a week has been pretty comforting, and honestly a bit life changing. |
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Nov 7, 2022 21:43:50 GMT -6
While your argument is totally sound, drbill , reverb is one of the few places where it's more complicated, IMO. I'd love to buy a couple of old reverb boxes, but those will also break at some point, and it's getting harder and harder (impossible in some cases) to fix them. Not like analog gear where you can find somebody to fix it when it goes down. […] to view plugins as anything more than disposable is short sighted. I view them as rent-ables that keep my DAW going. Sooner or later they are gone. There are exceptions to the rule though. Amen to this. In fact, the older I get, the more I view *everything* as temporary and/or fleeting. Enjoy what we have *today*, right in front of us, and try our best to preserve what we can, but hold all of it with an open palm. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 7, 2022 22:01:14 GMT -6
[…] to view plugins as anything more than disposable is short sighted. I view them as rent-ables that keep my DAW going. Sooner or later they are gone. There are exceptions to the rule though. Amen to this. In fact, the older I get, the more I view *everything* as temporary and/or fleeting. Enjoy what we have *today*, right in front of us, and try our best to preserve what we can, but hold all of it with an open palm. Amen brother!! Yeah, great attitude!!!! I know you were speaking metaphorically, but on topic of things being broken, outdated, and replaced : These days everything is built to be replaced asap. My brand new 40 year rated roof? The roofer said I'd be lucky to get 20 out of it. My uber pricey top of the line propane tankless water heater? It will last longer than the new 7-10 year traditional WH, but will be lucky to make it 15-20. My old one lasted 30+ years before it filled up with sand. Still worked though. Plumber said they quit making long lasting appliances 20 years ago, and guess what? My house is 20 years old. Everything is dying almost simultaneously like a freaking evil plot. My $40k dual HVAC units now need replacing, not easily repairable after only 20 years. My furnace in the old place from the 50's lasted 60+ years. But everything is built to replace now. Software no different. I hope I'm not around in 20....  . j/k Be thankful, and feel blessed. The only way to live!! It's cold outside and warm in front of all my outboard gear. LOL |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 22:43:43 GMT -6
Amen to this. In fact, the older I get, the more I view *everything* as temporary and/or fleeting. Enjoy what we have *today*, right in front of us, and try our best to preserve what we can, but hold all of it with an open palm. Amen brother!! Yeah, great attitude!!!! I know you were speaking metaphorically, but on topic of things being broken, outdated, and replaced : These days everything is built to be replaced asap. My brand new 40 year rated roof? The roofer said I'd be lucky to get 20 out of it. My uber pricey top of the line propane tankless water heater? It will last longer than the new 7-10 year traditional WH, but will be lucky to make it 15-20. My old one lasted 30+ years before it filled up with sand. Still worked though. Plumber said they quit making long lasting appliances 20 years ago, and guess what? My house is 20 years old. Everything is dying almost simultaneously like a freaking evil plot. My $40k dual HVAC units now need replacing, not easily repairable after only 20 years. My furnace in the old place from the 50's lasted 60+ years. But everything is built to replace now. Software no different. I hope I'm not around in 20.... . j/k Be thankful, and feel blessed. The only way to live!! It's cold outside and warm in front of all my outboard gear. LOL Except for the original batch of Waves plugins and the Renaissance series, Sonnox (Sony Oxford), and McDSP! They've been "in production" longer than most hardware. Even mainstays like SSL, Lexicon, and DBX are all gone! What's been continuously made for over 25 years? Hardy pres, GML 8200s, Speck, a Distressor, FMR RNC, and funny that Smart compressors and the Oxford DSP outlasted any SSL product. Most of these companies are making unrepairable stuff with no service manuals and then going under! They're not Yamaha! So much stuff is unrepairable with junk parts. Waves will be trying to get WUP from archaeologists in 2300 AD. |
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Nov 8, 2022 1:31:12 GMT -6
Biggest issue with any hardware effects unit is they use some kind of IC chip processor that is going to die. Its a question of when not if. And those go obsolete like plugins and expensive and hard to find ect.
Take the PCM42. Great delay, but the CLM50 chip in them goes bad and when it does it sounds bad. Eventually that will be impossible to find.
Same thing for say a Bircasti M7, one of probably the longest lasting hardware reverb units still being made. But whatever chips are powering that thing will have an end of life date. If we are lucky we will get a new one or replacement. But could also..not.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
|
Post by ericn on Nov 8, 2022 10:58:40 GMT -6
Biggest issue with any hardware effects unit is they use some kind of IC chip processor that is going to die. Its a question of when not if. And those go obsolete like plugins and expensive and hard to find ect. Take the PCM42. Great delay, but the CLM50 chip in them goes bad and when it does it sounds bad. Eventually that will be impossible to find. Same thing for say a Bircasti M7, one of probably the longest lasting hardware reverb units still being made. But whatever chips are powering that thing will have an end of life date. If we are lucky we will get a new one or replacement. But could also..not. At least Casey has probably learned to keep the code some where safe. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 11:05:56 GMT -6
And if I have concerns about future access to projects perhaps I should be printing and archiving reverb only tracks. YES!! I just finished up with a MASSIVE new template that allows me to make my very large hybrid setup 100% instantly recallable. It took a lot of work, but at this stage (especially after the lightning strike that took out a bunch of gear / hardware), I'm printing ALL hardware and software to "print" tracks post automated tracks, and then to stems. I'm tired of not having an older version of a plugin, or having sold a piece of hardware, or even something as simple as needing to reach up and turn controls for recall. I want it reliable in 25 years, and instantly recallable NOW - either tomorrow or next year. Printing post automated tracks is really the best way to do that. I can backwards step from final mix, to stems, to print tracks, to automated tracks to MIDI tracks in reverse - however I need to and it's all simple (well, OK, maybe not so simple, but it's elegant once implemented). Even working this way a week has been pretty comforting, and honestly a bit life changing. That’s a good idea! Like printing to tape! I already have projects I can’t open with plugins that never made the jump to 64-bit and many won’t make the jump to ARM just like many never made the aax jump |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
|
Post by ericn on Nov 8, 2022 11:14:18 GMT -6
YES!! I just finished up with a MASSIVE new template that allows me to make my very large hybrid setup 100% instantly recallable. It took a lot of work, but at this stage (especially after the lightning strike that took out a bunch of gear / hardware), I'm printing ALL hardware and software to "print" tracks post automated tracks, and then to stems. I'm tired of not having an older version of a plugin, or having sold a piece of hardware, or even something as simple as needing to reach up and turn controls for recall. I want it reliable in 25 years, and instantly recallable NOW - either tomorrow or next year. Printing post automated tracks is really the best way to do that. I can backwards step from final mix, to stems, to print tracks, to automated tracks to MIDI tracks in reverse - however I need to and it's all simple (well, OK, maybe not so simple, but it's elegant once implemented). Even working this way a week has been pretty comforting, and honestly a bit life changing. That’s a good idea! Like printing to tape! I already have projects I can’t open with plugins that never made the jump to 64-bit and many won’t make the jump to ARM just like many never made the aax jump Printing effects is seldom a bad idea if you have the drive space, in the early days of PT it was one of those dirty secrets if you had only one card and free voice’s, then guys discovered the old tape trick that with auto voice allocation you could do the old tape trick of using one track for a bunch of different things, but bring it up on different channels. If your afraid that plugin on a work in progress or old project is no longer going to be supported print it, print a 100% wet and a dry so you can play latter on. |
|
|
|
Post by guitfiddler on Nov 11, 2022 9:12:24 GMT -6
I'm bummed, love my Exponential Stuff. Pulled all my outboard effects units out of the closet, and now reconfiguring with all outboard effects, getting away from all computer crap, software updates, BS Waves WUP, Ilok! I get it if nothing changes the industry dies, but I'm just tired of protocol changes and software upgrades. I listened to a recording I did with my HD24 and a modified Ghost console from years ago, I really liked it, so much so, that I'm doing some changes to my setup. I just want to hit record and it works and sounds great without all the hassle trying to keep everything going without some kind of recent, or must have update or protocol change. In the process of building my new analog console, and I'm very excited about the changes!
|
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Nov 14, 2022 13:46:13 GMT -6
I bit the bullet and did the upgrades to the new versions, Stratus and Symphony. The price isn't too bad and they are good sounding reverbs. The gui is a little better as well.
|
|
. j/k
