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Post by thehightenor on Oct 26, 2022 0:09:57 GMT -6
The UAD 250 is very nice indeed, constant density plate emulations sound great on snare and acoustic guitars to my ears.
There’s so many stand out reverbs now (and delays) we are literally beyond spoilt.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 26, 2022 1:18:54 GMT -6
Dan, 2016, First and second,is there a mki and a mkii?
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 26, 2022 2:23:48 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 26, 2022 3:27:20 GMT -6
In terms of the CLA layered approach ( delays into verbs, matrixed), referenced in the video above.
The 4 part series is a come on for his Epic waves plug in.
I got turned off of waves a while back, the whole wup thing and older plug ins needing different installers, I just don't use them any more.
I recall us talking about that when it was released but is anybody actually using it
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2022 7:30:12 GMT -6
In case Michael is too busy to chime in, I believe he's said the 480 code is lost and I think he said it's because Lex or Harmon got rid of the only remaining computer that could actually decompile it or something like that. I've heard that the 224 code was lost as well, but, if you read the information for the UAD 224 it claims straight out that they were able to port the original algorithms. The UAD 480 uses more creative language to say they "captured the sound" etc without saying that it's the original software. Heard my bell ringing... The 224 code was lost. The last time that Lex had it, it lived on a pair of VAX servers (that was a long time ago). When the department moved to SPARC stations (still a long time ago), the VAX servers were sold off and the 224 code was never transferred. Perhaps there were printouts, but I simply don't know. I've not heard the UAD emulation, but they probably got pretty close. They may have spoken to Barry Blesser about it as they did for the EMT 250. Barry had a pretty good idea of how the 224 code worked. A wireframe of the Concert Hall algorithm was also published many years ago and that may have also served as a reference. In any case, I can't speak to the authenticity of any claims. The 480L is another story. That code still existed when I left the company in 2012. Last time I looked at it was perhaps a couple of years before that and it was a mess. For several years after the last 480 firmware release, Dave Griesinger used the device for his own experiments. The code ballooned with all sorts of conditional compiles and changes to the core code. It would have taken some serious sleuthing to figure out was was released code, but I believe it could have been done--perhaps. In any case, that code went to UAD as part of a joint contract. After I established Exponential Audio, Bill Putnam Jr approached me to see if I'd be interested in porting the 480 code. Besides the fact that my hands were full, I think I'd rather chew glass than go into that code again. I told Bill about what I saw as the condition of the code and what would need doing. I gave him the name of an engineer who'd worked with the code back in the 90s. I'm pretty sure that person ran away screaming when the phone rang. In the end, I have no idea what UAD did. They may have locked some poor schmoe up with that code and passed in food trays under the cell door until the job was done. There are some bright engineers there. The thing to keep in mind about any port was that both the 224 and 480 code used a combination of proprietary LSI circuits, Z80 processors and 68000 processors. I worked with a few generations of those things. They are nothing like modern chips. The math was crude and program control was absolutely bizarre. In addition, there were bugs in the chips that you had to work around. Knowledge of those bugs wasn't documented--you just had to know how to program around them. There's absolutely nothing about those chips that you couldn't do better with a basic Intel CPU, but getting the port done was hugely challenging. Anybody who gets close has my respect.
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Post by ericn on Oct 26, 2022 8:36:29 GMT -6
In case Michael is too busy to chime in, I believe he's said the 480 code is lost and I think he said it's because Lex or Harmon got rid of the only remaining computer that could actually decompile it or something like that. I've heard that the 224 code was lost as well, but, if you read the information for the UAD 224 it claims straight out that they were able to port the original algorithms. The UAD 480 uses more creative language to say they "captured the sound" etc without saying that it's the original software. Heard my bell ringing... The 224 code was lost. The last time that Lex had it, it lived on a pair of VAX servers (that was a long time ago). When the department moved to SPARC stations (still a long time ago), the VAX servers were sold off and the 224 code was never transferred. Perhaps there were printouts, but I simply don't know. I've not heard the UAD emulation, but they probably got pretty close. They may have spoken to Barry Blesser about it as they did for the EMT 250. Barry had a pretty good idea of how the 224 code worked. A wireframe of the Concert Hall algorithm was also published many years ago and that may have also served as a reference. In any case, I can't speak to the authenticity of any claims. The 480L is another story. That code still existed when I left the company in 2012. Last time I looked at it was perhaps a couple of years before that and it was a mess. For several years after the last 480 firmware release, Dave Griesinger used the device for his own experiments. The code ballooned with all sorts of conditional compiles and changes to the core code. It would have taken some serious sleuthing to figure out was was released code, but I believe it could have been done--perhaps. In any case, that code went to UAD as part of a joint contract. After I established Exponential Audio, Bill Putnam Jr approached me to see if I'd be interested in porting the 480 code. Besides the fact that my hands were full, I think I'd rather chew glass than go into that code again. I told Bill about what I saw as the condition of the code and what would need doing. I gave him the name of an engineer who'd worked with the code back in the 90s. I'm pretty sure that person ran away screaming when the phone rang. In the end, I have no idea what UAD did. They may have locked some poor schmoe up with that code and passed in food trays under the cell door until the job was done. There are some bright engineers there. The thing to keep in mind about any port was that both the 224 and 480 code used a combination of proprietary LSI circuits, Z80 processors and 68000 processors. I worked with a few generations of those things. They are nothing like modern chips. The math was crude and program control was absolutely bizarre. In addition, there were bugs in the chips that you had to work around. Knowledge of those bugs wasn't documented--you just had to know how to program around them. There's absolutely nothing about those chips that you couldn't do better with a basic Intel CPU, but getting the port done was hugely challenging. Anybody who gets close has my respect. I did have an image in my mind of some guy booting up some old machine he bought at a surplus auction and there was all this code that the audio community would treasure that he wiped because he needed something to try to port the original code from some obscure video game to iPhone 😁
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Post by schmalzy on Oct 26, 2022 10:10:14 GMT -6
My approach? Layers.
I have a number of reverbs - 5 maybe - that are all active. Two of those get some additional routing to split them into left-only, right-only, and stereo. Those are my base level ambiences. Most things get a light touch of those and, depending on the size I want them to have and the arrangement, they'll get combinations of the left-only, right-only, or stereo. A hard-panned guitar in a radio rock song will probably only get the opposite-panned reverb for example. The remaining three are my methods for exaggerating the size/space/distance. I also sometimes add special reverbs like a spring or a shimmer.
Delays? I have a 1/8th, 1/4th, 1/2 delays; pingpong starting right and a pingpong starting left; a 1/4 delay with one offset side; a stereo Haas; a short untimed slap; a timed slap; and a lots-of-repeats delay set to whatever division the song needs. They'll individually get EQd in order to fit the vibe and the mix.
Most of all those things go unused on each mix but I like to play around with which one fits the song/part. Much of the time stuff will get a tiny amount of one of the base level ambiences and one reverb and/or one delay. Lead vocals often get a plate and one of the stereo delays. Backup vocals often get a mono delay (sent panned a specific way because they're often double-tracked backups) and a smeary-er verb. Lead instruments often get a stereo delay and a verb to make them more or less like the lead vocal.. If they're simultaneous to the lead they'll often get panned and get a mono delay instead.
Is it overkill? Absolutely. I like having options, though, and the success is often found in the restraint to use fewer of the right options rather than more options. Often I find I don't have my ambiences nailed down until my mix is nailed down...but I always want some ambience on the sources in the mix early to get the mix to find itself; cart, horse, egg, chicken, and all that.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 26, 2022 14:52:03 GMT -6
I might be an outlier here, I usually have around 10 reverbs/delays setup per session (in my default template). I'll have usually 1 room verb that most elements get a touch of. From there I try to craft the ambience of each instrument group accordingly. I should note that for most of my productions the verb/delay on my synths/keys is part of the sound, not for ambience. Same with electric guitars.
So Drums = two verbs (a room and a longer plate). Guitars = Plate Verb & Delay (treated as fx, not as room ambience usually). Keys = Plate & Delay. Vocals = Plate, Long Hall & Delay Also usually have one instance of a specialty verb (shimmer effect etc)
I don't use all of them every mix, but I'm often running 5-7 of them. I'll also use two instances of the same verb, same settings etc, on two different instruments so that I can control automation and panning easier. For example, I may want the same plate verb on synth and guitar, but for guitars maybe I pan the verb to one side while leaving it stereo for the synths. Or maybe I need to automate the delay on an arpeggiated synth to create unique effects. I can also eq the returns differently that way too (if needed). Using lots of different verbs/delays allows me to control the amount of glue vs separation as well.
Side Note: On drums I rely heavily on room mics, if I can get the sound I want from those I'm golden and often just need a touch of a plate verb on snare.
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Post by notneeson on Oct 26, 2022 17:47:13 GMT -6
In terms of the CLA layered approach ( delays into verbs, matrixed), referenced in the video above. The 4 part series is a come on for his Epic waves plug in. I got turned off of waves a while back, the whole wup thing and older plug ins needing different installers, I just don't use them any more. I recall us talking about that when it was released but is anybody actually using it I use it all the time now, and I’m not really chasing the CLA sound per se. It has great presets. So many plugins have terrible presets, the CLA ones are refreshingly useful.
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Post by m03 on Oct 26, 2022 22:03:35 GMT -6
The thing to keep in mind about any port was that both the 224 and 480 code used a combination of proprietary LSI circuits, Z80 processors and 68000 processors. FWIW, for the 224, the base hardware platform is an Intel 8080 Multibus (1st gen) backplane with an off the shelf Intel 80/10 SBC card (or a National Semiconductor 80/10 clone...not sure if it was cheaper or if the Intel one was EOLed while the 224 was still being sold) paired with the custom RAM/ADDA/etc boards. The Lexicon cards did make use of the secondary implementation-specific bus, so still a hill to climb, but maybe not insurmountable. I reached out to a party that supposedly bought some of their old computing hardware several years ago, but when I asked if there was an MDS-800 with the ICE card they'd be willing to let go of, they clammed up.
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Post by sirthought on Oct 27, 2022 0:24:45 GMT -6
So it sounds like there are actually a number of reverbs with code that is likely the same algorithms, but just not the exact sound due to converters and analog components. I'm okay with that!
I've never been in the same room with a Bricasti and studio monitors. But I've also heard Liquid Sonics version done with IRs and it sounds pretty amazing to me.
Do I have bad ears? Just no clue? Maybe, but really who can complain with those results. In a mix it sounds good.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2022 11:27:45 GMT -6
So it sounds like there are actually a number of reverbs with code that is likely the same algorithms, but just not the exact sound due to converters and analog components. I'm okay with that! It's been a good 30 years since the analog components and converters made a big enough difference to hear without very specific test material. There are some low-level things in software architecture that many reverb algorithms share, but the differences among implementations are immense. To me, the measure of reverb quality depends on how well it handles bad inputs (lets say a resonance on a snare drum or the percussive hit of a glockenspiel). Most reverbs will sound just fine on a string pad or an alto voice. It's the edge cases where the rubber meets the road.
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Post by drumsound on Oct 27, 2022 11:51:37 GMT -6
So it sounds like there are actually a number of reverbs with code that is likely the same algorithms, but just not the exact sound due to converters and analog components. I'm okay with that! It's been a good 30 years since the analog components and converters made a big enough difference to hear without very specific test material. There are some low-level things in software architecture that many reverb algorithms share, but the differences among implementations are immense. To me, the measure of reverb quality depends on how well it handles bad inputs (lets say a resonance on a snare drum or the percussive hit of a glockenspiel). Most reverbs will sound just fine on a string pad or an alto voice. It's the edge cases where the rubber meets the road. You ain't just whistlin' Dixie there, man!
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Post by bossanova on Oct 27, 2022 15:29:56 GMT -6
In terms of the CLA layered approach ( delays into verbs, matrixed), referenced in the video above. The 4 part series is a come on for his Epic waves plug in. I got turned off of waves a while back, the whole wup thing and older plug ins needing different installers, I just don't use them any more. I recall us talking about that when it was released but is anybody actually using it I use it all the time now, and I’m not really chasing the CLA sound per se. It has great presets. So many plugins have terrible presets, the CLA ones are refreshingly useful. I use it as my “drop in” reverb for wet and 80s retro drums using snare and room presets respectively. I’ve shot it out for vocals but it usually doesn’t beat my favorites there. That could be taste as much as anything.
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Post by notneeson on Oct 27, 2022 15:45:42 GMT -6
I use it all the time now, and I’m not really chasing the CLA sound per se. It has great presets. So many plugins have terrible presets, the CLA ones are refreshingly useful. I use it as my “drop in” reverb for wet and 80s retro drums using snare and room presets respectively. I’ve shot it out for vocals but it usually doesn’t beat my favorites there. That could be taste as much as anything. It worked really well on this 90s reissue thing that I mixed: two brothers singing harmony and it really helped give a little space to the vox. It’s very different from my other go tos.
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