ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 24, 2022 12:29:35 GMT -6
Part of the character of those old boxes are the analog stages, so you have the dedicated tone of the box PLUS the programing that often was very creative to squeeze the most out of available technology. I'm REALLY thinking Eventide here, but it applies to others. There's also a certain simplicity that is both charming, AND time effective. A Lexicon PCM60 just has a series of large buttons to get sounds. You press a button and listen, if you like it, stop. If the client asks to hear the different options, A/B is super simple. I don't like later Lexicon pieces because I HATE the UI (even though they sound good). I love my TC M3K because I love that UI (and it's sound). I get the analog stage piece of the puzzle. But should that be a major difference maker? As for plugin ease of use, isn't that what presets are for? I really appreciate everyone's responses here. I'm just not convinced yet as to why this little corner of digital technology has to be stuck in the 80s and 90s. I once joked with a lexicon rep I ran into that the needed a converter that sounded like those in the PCM60, 70, 224 and 480 plus add in the Eventide H3000, because it’s really hard to make a Mytek to distort like those. He thought I was nuts. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 24, 2022 12:32:35 GMT -6
Just to confirm what Dan said, I have a lowly Kurzweil Rumuor outboard reverb with a beautiful plate setting that many times I tried to replace with plugins because patching outboard slows me down, but no plugin I've found can replace it. It's just a digital processor, nothing that a computer can't do, but somehow it sounds better than any plugin. I suspect that the best reverb algorithms are trapped inside hardware. Here's a trick I've been using to get awesome reverb: I have the Seventh Heaven plugin, which is an impulse response recreation of the Bricasti, and sounds like a plastic recreation of the original. But I often set up a mix with a few Seventh Heaven instances, then, after I've done all the automation, I use Access Analog to print them with the genuine article and then import the results into my DAW. It's a bitch to do all this, but it's well worth it. The Kurzweil boxes all have a cult following for a reason. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 24, 2022 12:38:06 GMT -6
Tony over the years I have learned to important lessons about not doing things the fashionable way in this industry. 1. If you build your client base on what you do and don’t worry about hits you can get away with it. 2. A big part of this leads to number 1; Clients are more results based, while modern clients know more about technique and technology than years ago, ideas of method can be treated more as a way of communicating a goal of the result. If you nod your head and figure how you can get there within the aesthetic your known for run with it. Yeah, I've pretty much gotten away with this for about 25 years! There’s a common underlying axiom in this thread that ITB reverb plugins can’t compare with OTB, even funky old early digital boxes. If this is true why is it true given the enormous advances in computer processing power? I understand the benefits of real plates, chambers and springs over plugins. But what’s the science behind the claim that old digital boxes are better than current plugins? Part of the character of those old boxes are the analog stages, so you have the dedicated tone of the box PLUS the programing that often was very creative to squeeze the most out of available technology. I'm REALLY thinking Eventide here, but it applies to others. There's also a certain simplicity that is both charming, AND time effective. A Lexicon PCM60 just has a series of large buttons to get sounds. You press a button and listen, if you like it, stop. If the client asks to hear the different options, A/B is super simple. I don't like later Lexicon pieces because I HATE the UI (even though they sound good). I love my TC M3K because I love that UI (and it's sound). Love the TC2,3,4,5 &6 K’s just the TC single space boxes all suffer from that crappy PSU that will bite you in the ass one day, someone could make a bit of coin with a better replacement PSU. I have 2K that I would send to TC for its third PSU but I always think, Why? I’m just going to be right back here. Oh with PSU #2 it lived on Furman voltage regulator! |
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Post by jmoose on Oct 24, 2022 18:05:17 GMT -6
Thx everyone, when I said live, I meant live, hearing a band in a club, concert hall etc, live music, real space with its natural reverb vs recording. Well most of that world, live audio in a club or good size theater / hall show? Its also a total illusion. Not much "natural" about it. Yes if we're standing in the middle of a huge arena that holds 30-40,000 people? That empty cavern has a definite reverb. So would a smaller spot like a hall that holds 4000 people... a small club that holds 300-400 people (or less) tends to be pretty dry. It might have a natural "ambiance" but I'd stop short of saying reverb. But in all cases when soundcheck is over & the room is filled with people? That natural ambiance dries up fast. Actually the whole frequency response changes as the room fills in & empties out. Your RT60 at a given frequency is probably going to vary through the night. I learned an awful lot about how to pick & apply reverb back in my live sound days. As a system tech? Some people were absolutely masters at it... almost nobody was running 100% dry. That would be a very rare exception. There's always some goop added at the desk. In the live world ideally we want our "reverb box" - whatever we dial up to seamlessly blend into the natural sound of the space. If we pick "the right" reverb you can often pile a TON of it on and nobody is going to notice because it never stands out. It simply becomes another layer of sound. Works in the studio too. Get a static mix together, pick a reverb box and start flipping through presets. They all have a different tonality. Some are going to step out & scream "hey I'm an effect" and others are going to sink into the natural sound. In those cases the mix might seem "dry" until the verb return is muted and them "hey what happened?!" - Its like someone muting an instrument. That's where things like decay times get tricky... You might think that having a 3.5 second decay seems crazy... its too long right? But if the overall tonality is natural? You never hear the full decay... it just rides along. Adds depth. IMO? There's an awful big world of effects out there and generally I subscribe to the Daniel Lanois take on reverb... which is that too many times its almost an automatic reaction. Oh we're cutting vocals, better put some reverb on there! But what if you had other options to add space & depth... apparent width blah blah blee blee without reverb?! Remember mixing an album several years ago where the recall & revision notes? They wanted to address reverb levels on most of the songs and I'm like, well... ok but I didn't actually use any reverb on this. There are things happening you might interpret as reverb, but there aren't any discrete reverbs on anything. It was all echo's and spatial expansion kinda stuff. Another thing is people all interpret space/reverb differently and can have vastly different takes on the same thing... At one point I was working on something where the artists said they wanted the vocals & other elements 'bone dry' & upfront, like Emmylou Harris and they pulled out Wrecking Ball... which... man, hey kids this is swimming. They loved that album but never noticed the reverb. So ok Moose do whatever 'ya need to make it sound like that. Well ok then! |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Oct 24, 2022 18:47:03 GMT -6
Thx everyone, when I said live, I meant live, hearing a band in a club, concert hall etc, live music, real space with its natural reverb vs recording. Well most of that world, live audio in a club or good size theater / hall show? Its also a total illusion. Not much "natural" about it. Yes if we're standing in the middle of a huge arena that holds 30-40,000 people? That empty cavern has a definite reverb. So would a smaller spot like a hall that holds 4000 people... a small club that holds 300-400 people (or less) tends to be pretty dry. It might have a natural "ambiance" but I'd stop short of saying reverb. But in all cases when soundcheck is over & the room is filled with people? That natural ambiance dries up fast. Actually the whole frequency response changes as the room fills in & empties out. Your RT60 at a given frequency is probably going to vary through the night. I learned an awful lot about how to pick & apply reverb back in my live sound days. As a system tech? Some people were absolutely masters at it... almost nobody was running 100% dry. That would be a very rare exception. There's always some goop added at the desk. In the live world ideally we want our "reverb box" - whatever we dial up to seamlessly blend into the natural sound of the space. If we pick "the right" reverb you can often pile a TON of it on and nobody is going to notice because it never stands out. It simply becomes another layer of sound. Works in the studio too. Get a static mix together, pick a reverb box and start flipping through presets. They all have a different tonality. Some are going to step out & scream "hey I'm an effect" and others are going to sink into the natural sound. In those cases the mix might seem "dry" until the verb return is muted and them "hey what happened?!" - Its like someone muting an instrument. That's where things like decay times get tricky... You might think that having a 3.5 second decay seems crazy... its too long right? But if the overall tonality is natural? You never hear the full decay... it just rides along. Adds depth. IMO? There's an awful big world of effects out there and generally I subscribe to the Daniel Lanois take on reverb... which is that too many times its almost an automatic reaction. Oh we're cutting vocals, better put some reverb on there! But what if you had other options to add space & depth... apparent width blah blah blee blee without reverb?! Remember mixing an album several years ago where the recall & revision notes? They wanted to address reverb levels on most of the songs and I'm like, well... ok but I didn't actually use any reverb on this. There are things happening you might interpret as reverb, but there aren't any discrete reverbs on anything. It was all echo's and spatial expansion kinda stuff. Another thing is people all interpret space/reverb differently and can have vastly different takes on the same thing... At one point I was working on something where the artists said they wanted the vocals & other elements 'bone dry' & upfront, like Emmylou Harris and they pulled out Wrecking Ball... which... man, hey kids this is swimming. They loved that album but never noticed the reverb. So ok Moose do whatever 'ya need to make it sound like that. Well ok then! I have this recurring dream of a live venue where they actually listened to the acoustician🥸 |
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Post by copperx on Oct 24, 2022 19:55:54 GMT -6
If this is true, WHY aren't Lexicon and Eventide making the best possible ITB verbs? Wouldn't it be in their financial interest to do so? I'm guessing they've run the numbers and the answer is no. As a Comp Scientist, I speculate that they have the algorithms in assembly/machine code only, not in a higher level language. Translating code written for a DSP is not easy, because it's likely that the algorithm has chip-specific I/O instructions and optimizations embedded in it. You would need someone that is good at both DSP and reverse engineering arcane architectures. I'm guessing paying the salary for 1-3 persons with such a profile will run about a million dollars a year. This is assuming the original designers are nowhere to be found. If they are, the job is greatly simplified. As an alternative, they could create an emulator for the chip and run the original code unchanged, but that might not be an easy undertaking either, depending on the chip. It is likely that the algorithms that Lexicon chose to port (Lexicon PCM96, released in 2007) were available in a high level language to start with, that's why they did it. It's not like UA with their UAD plugins, where they've had the algorithms written and tested in C++ (on desktop computers!) all along. Porting in that case is a piece of cake in comparison. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 24, 2022 20:27:02 GMT -6
If this is true, WHY aren't Lexicon and Eventide making the best possible ITB verbs? Wouldn't it be in their financial interest to do so? I'm guessing they've run the numbers and the answer is no. As a Comp Scientist, I speculate that they have the algorithms in assembly/machine code only, not in a higher level language. Translating code written for a DSP is not easy, because it's likely that the algorithm has chip-specific I/O instructions and optimizations embedded in it. You would need someone that is good at both DSP and reverse engineering arcane architectures. I'm guessing paying the salary for 1-3 persons with such a profile will run about a million dollars a year. This is assuming the original designers are nowhere to be found. If they are, the job is greatly simplified. As an alternative, they could create an emulator for the chip and run the original code unchanged, but that might not be an easy undertaking either, depending on the chip. It is likely that the algorithms that Lexicon chose to port (Lexicon PCM96, released in 2007) were available in a high level language to start with, that's why they did it. It's not like UA with their UAD plugins, where they've had the algorithms written and tested in C++ (on desktop computers!) all along. Porting in that case is a piece of cake in comparison. I am sure that had a lot to do with it, but I can think of 2 other factors with Lexicon, some years ago I was talking to a guy who spent some years at Harman. I was telling him how it felt like the long term strategy at Harman from a dealers perspective felt like it changed monthly “ inside it felt like weekly “ he said. The other thing was Software was Lexicon’s last hurrah as a pro manufacturer, and they were late. Other thing Harman likes to sell via dealers, most plugins seam to be sold direct. |
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Post by drumsound on Oct 24, 2022 21:45:18 GMT -6
Part of the character of those old boxes are the analog stages, so you have the dedicated tone of the box PLUS the programing that often was very creative to squeeze the most out of available technology. I'm REALLY thinking Eventide here, but it applies to others. There's also a certain simplicity that is both charming, AND time effective. A Lexicon PCM60 just has a series of large buttons to get sounds. You press a button and listen, if you like it, stop. If the client asks to hear the different options, A/B is super simple. I don't like later Lexicon pieces because I HATE the UI (even though they sound good). I love my TC M3K because I love that UI (and it's sound). I get the analog stage piece of the puzzle. But should that be a major difference maker? As for plugin ease of use, isn't that what presets are for? I really appreciate everyone's responses here. I'm just not convinced yet as to why this little corner of digital technology has to be stuck in the 80s and 90s. It's that whole thing of "what gets me there fastest, and easiest?
I get the analog stage piece of the puzzle. But should that be a major difference maker? As for plugin ease of use, isn't that what presets are for? I really appreciate everyone's responses here. I'm just not convinced yet as to why this little corner of digital technology has to be stuck in the 80s and 90s. I once joked with a lexicon rep I ran into that the needed a converter that sounded like those in the PCM60, 70, 224 and 480 plus add in the Eventide H3000, because it’s really hard to make a Mytek to distort like those. He thought I was nuts. It's like asking Rupert Neve to ADD distortion. He thought people were crazy to care about the 80 series, everything he worked on after that has better specs for noise and bandwidth. Just to confirm what Dan said, I have a lowly Kurzweil Rumuor outboard reverb with a beautiful plate setting that many times I tried to replace with plugins because patching outboard slows me down, but no plugin I've found can replace it. It's just a digital processor, nothing that a computer can't do, but somehow it sounds better than any plugin. I suspect that the best reverb algorithms are trapped inside hardware. Here's a trick I've been using to get awesome reverb: I have the Seventh Heaven plugin, which is an impulse response recreation of the Bricasti, and sounds like a plastic recreation of the original. But I often set up a mix with a few Seventh Heaven instances, then, after I've done all the automation, I use Access Analog to print them with the genuine article and then import the results into my DAW. It's a bitch to do all this, but it's well worth it. The Kurzweil boxes all have a cult following for a reason. I love my Mangler, but part of that is that it's named MANGLER and it has a program called Ned Flangers. I'm, c'mon, it's not getting cooler than that. Yeah, I've pretty much gotten away with this for about 25 years! Part of the character of those old boxes are the analog stages, so you have the dedicated tone of the box PLUS the programing that often was very creative to squeeze the most out of available technology. I'm REALLY thinking Eventide here, but it applies to others. There's also a certain simplicity that is both charming, AND time effective. A Lexicon PCM60 just has a series of large buttons to get sounds. You press a button and listen, if you like it, stop. If the client asks to hear the different options, A/B is super simple. I don't like later Lexicon pieces because I HATE the UI (even though they sound good). I love my TC M3K because I love that UI (and it's sound). Love the TC2,3,4,5 &6 K’s just the TC single space boxes all suffer from that crappy PSU that will bite you in the ass one day, someone could make a bit of coin with a better replacement PSU. I have 2K that I would send to TC for its third PSU but I always think, Why? I’m just going to be right back here. Oh with PSU #2 it lived on Furman voltage regulator! I've been lucky, no issues. |
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2022 22:27:24 GMT -6
Eventide is in the business of selling recording apps and hardware to police communications these days.
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Post by Ward on Oct 25, 2022 6:17:34 GMT -6
Eventide is in the business of selling recording apps and hardware to police communications these days. Everyone's gotta have a job! |
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Post by Ward on Oct 25, 2022 6:18:45 GMT -6
SNIP At one point I was working on something where the artists said they wanted the vocals & other elements 'bone dry' & upfront, like Emmylou Harris and they pulled out Wrecking Ball... which... man, hey kids this is swimming. They loved that album but never noticed the reverb. So ok Moose do whatever 'ya need to make it sound like that. Well ok then! Holy smokes that's wet! And sparse too! |
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Post by jmoose on Oct 25, 2022 14:55:23 GMT -6
I have this recurring dream of a live venue where they actually listened to the acoustician🥸 I'm your unicorn. Was lucky to spend a few years as production manager at a club called Mexicali Blues Cafe in Teaneck NJ... 4 x Meyer MSL 2A (flown 2 per side) w/ 3 x 650 subs (we only ran two) powered by Apogee amps... BSS omnidrive at FOH - FOH position was dead nuts center. Baby Midas desk w/ A&H GL3300 (3800?) in monitor world 24x24 split. Panels hung all over the room... walls & ceiling 4" material w/ air gaps. Also had a pair of Earthworks SR20's hung over the stage for tapers & matrix recordings... Was like mixing on a giant set of studio mains. Club is still there under a different name (Debonair Music Hall) and more or less running the same rig... though now there's a Digico desk... SD10? And they shuffled the FOH platform off to the side. Also spent time touring up & down the east coast as a whole... name a big club or festival I was probably there at some point. Have a zillion stories, most can't be told in public lol Happily retired from that life now. The 8x10 Club in Baltimore is another fabulous room. Pretty similar configuration actually with Meyer MSL4's and a ground floor + balcony setup. Also need to give a shout to Roys Hall in Blairstown NJ... small room owned by a sound company. Good people. They care. Right there aren't many but there are indeed a few great rooms out there that put some thought into it. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 25, 2022 15:48:51 GMT -6
I have this recurring dream of a live venue where they actually listened to the acoustician🥸 I'm your unicorn. Was lucky to spend a few years as production manager at a club called Mexicali Blues Cafe in Teaneck NJ... 4 x Meyer MSL 2A (flown 2 per side) w/ 3 x 650 subs (we only ran two) powered by Apogee amps... BSS omnidrive at FOH - FOH position was dead nuts center. Baby Midas desk w/ A&H GL3300 (3800?) in monitor world 24x24 split. Panels hung all over the room... walls & ceiling 4" material w/ air gaps. Also had a pair of Earthworks SR20's hung over the stage for tapers & matrix recordings... Was like mixing on a giant set of studio mains. Club is still there under a different name (Debonair Music Hall) and more or less running the same rig... though now there's a Digico desk... SD10? And they shuffled the FOH platform off to the side. Also spent time touring up & down the east coast as a whole... name a big club or festival I was probably there at some point. Have a zillion stories, most can't be told in public lol Happily retired from that life now. The 8x10 Club in Baltimore is another fabulous room. Pretty similar configuration actually with Meyer MSL4's and a ground floor + balcony setup. Also need to give a shout to Roys Hall in Blairstown NJ... small room owned by a sound company. Good people. They care. Right there aren't many but there are indeed a few great rooms out there that put some thought into it. You lucky SOB! In the Midwest I would have given just about anything to walk into a club with a Meyer’s rig, lots of EV, lots of bad recones. A couple of fairly good home built JBL rigs cabinets built to the old “Drews Rules” it’s what got me building boxes and learning about drivers. Hell my freshman computers project was re-writing the basic Thiele- Small program with 1/12th octave and 1db steps (the original was 1/2 oct 3dB resolution. In 1983 it did help when one of your closest friends worked for IBM. |
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Post by copperx on Oct 25, 2022 16:45:01 GMT -6
Just to confirm what I said above about reverbs, I did some digging and found that the UAD Lexicon 224/480L reverb developers did NOT have access to the original code because Harman/Lexicon simply don't have it; so UAD reverse-engineered the box, and Lexicon licensed the name. That's why most plugins don't sound like hardware. AFAIK, the only hardware reverb boxes that have been ported (1:1) to plugins are: - The Lexicon PCM96, which is the same code as the Lexicon PCM bundle;
- the TC6000 with the VSS4 plugin;
- the Eventide SP2106; and
- (the new) Strymon BigSky.
I'm unsure if the Yamaha Rev-X plugin contains the same code as Rev-1, Rev-5, or Rev-7. But just looking at the controls, it seems unlikely. All other plugins are emulations or reverse-engineering efforts. It seems that getting the legendary algorithms in the box will necessarily involve painstaking reverse engineering. If we include non-reverb plugins, we have: - The Weiss DS1-MK1 (Softube)
- Korg synths (Korg)
- Sony Oxford EQ and Dynamics (Sonnox)
Does anybody know of other 1:1 hardware to plugin ports? |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Oct 25, 2022 17:43:00 GMT -6
Just to confirm what I said above reverbs, I did some digging and found that the UAD Lexicon 224/480L reverb developers did NOT have access to the original code because Harman/Lexicon simply don't have it; so UAD reverse-engineered the box, and Lexicon licensed the name. That's why most plugins don't sound like hardware. AFAIK, the only hardware reverb boxes that have been ported (1:1) to plugins are: - The Lexicon PCM96, which is the same code as the Lexicon PCM bundle;
- the TC6000 with the VSS4 plugin;
- the Eventide SP2106; and
- (the new) Strymon BigSky.
I'm unsure if the Yamaha Rev-X plugin contains the same code as Rev-1, Rev-5, or Rev-7. But just looking at the controls, it seems unlikely. All other plugins are emulations or reverse-engineering efforts. It seems that getting the legendary algorithms in the box will necessarily involve painstaking reverse engineering. If we include non-reverb plugins, we have: - The Weiss DS1-MK1 (Softube)
- Korg synths (Korg)
- Sony Oxford EQ and Dynamics (Sonnox)
Does anybody know of other 1:1 hardware to plugin ports? Harmon couldn’t find the code? Yeah that sounds like Harmon. It’s probably sitting in a landfill somewhere. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 25, 2022 17:48:23 GMT -6
Calling Michael Cairns?  |
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 25, 2022 18:11:22 GMT -6
Calling Michael Cairns? and Michael Carnes @exponentialaudio, curious to hear your thoughts on this thread |
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Post by sirthought on Oct 25, 2022 18:20:01 GMT -6
I heard UAD's version of the AMS RMX16 is the actual algorithms from AMS. The UAD-2 version of the AMS Neve DFC Channel Strip is also the direct code. (Not sure about the DMX Delay and Pitch Shifter)
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Post by bossanova on Oct 25, 2022 19:03:59 GMT -6
In case Michael is too busy to chime in, I believe he's said the 480 code is lost and I think he said it's because Lex or Harmon got rid of the only remaining computer that could actually decompile it or something like that.
I've heard that the 224 code was lost as well, but, if you read the information for the UAD 224 it claims straight out that they were able to port the original algorithms. The UAD 480 uses more creative language to say they "captured the sound" etc without saying that it's the original software.
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Post by copperx on Oct 25, 2022 20:38:05 GMT -6
I've heard that the 224 code was lost as well, but, if you read the information for the UAD 224 it claims straight out that they were able to port the original algorithms. The UAD 480 uses more creative language to say they "captured the sound" etc without saying that it's the original software. Casey from Bricasti, in the purple forum, mentioned that he knew the UA developers involved in the UAD 224 and it was strictly a reverse-engineering effort. I'm guessing they were able to get part of the algorithms. But it's not the same. |
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Post by gouge on Oct 25, 2022 21:29:43 GMT -6
i recently stumbled upon a couple of things that seem to have helped me with reverb.
first thing was looking at loudness of individual tracks on their respective buss and use low levels of track compression and channel panning to even left and right out on the stereo meters.
second thing was to solo the stereo reverb buss and adjust the input gain of each instrument to get an even stereo mix. for example, if i have guitars going to a reverb buss, i solo the reverb with guitars only and adjust levels so the guitar sound stage is even and coherent in stereo.
same for drums sends, vocal sends etc.
end result is my mixes are smoother and more coherent and sound more in the space. my take away is i am micro managing the gain staging and loudness more effectively by doing the above.
this has also helped me to rethink the use of compression.
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Post by bossanova on Oct 25, 2022 22:02:38 GMT -6
I've heard that the 224 code was lost as well, but, if you read the information for the UAD 224 it claims straight out that they were able to port the original algorithms. The UAD 480 uses more creative language to say they "captured the sound" etc without saying that it's the original software. Casey from Bricasti, in the purple forum, mentioned that he knew the UA developers involved in the UAD 224 and it was strictly a reverse-engineering effort. I'm guessing they were able to get part of the algorithms. But it's not the same. Ah…that’s interesting. UAD really played fast and loose with that claim for the 224 VST then. |
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Post by ab101 on Oct 25, 2022 23:10:13 GMT -6
From UAD website - www.uaudio.com/uad-plugins/reverbs/lexicon-224.htmlUsing the exact algorithms and control processor code from the original hardware, the Lexicon 224 plug-in precisely captures all eight legendary reverb programs and the chorus program — based on the Lexicon 224's final and hard-to-find firmware version 4.4. The Lexicon 224 plug-in also incorporates the original hardware’s input transformers and early AD/DA 12-bit gain stepping converters. (Emphasis added.)If this is not true, then UAD should change this language! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2022 23:11:09 GMT -6
I heard UAD's version of the AMS RMX16 is the actual algorithms from AMS. The UAD-2 version of the AMS Neve DFC Channel Strip is also the direct code. (Not sure about the DMX Delay and Pitch Shifter) Yeah there ported/recreated to the sharc and the hardware reissue runs on sharc with the UAD algs but with emulation of the converters and original hardware for more authentic/better sound. It’s similar to what happened with the. Eventide sp2016 reissue hardware -> first plug -> second plug and the 2nd plug emulates the 40hz sampling rate and other oddities and has way better sound than the 1st plug. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2022 23:16:15 GMT -6
Just to confirm what I said above about reverbs, I did some digging and found that the UAD Lexicon 224/480L reverb developers did NOT have access to the original code because Harman/Lexicon simply don't have it; so UAD reverse-engineered the box, and Lexicon licensed the name. That's why most plugins don't sound like hardware. AFAIK, the only hardware reverb boxes that have been ported (1:1) to plugins are: - The Lexicon PCM96, which is the same code as the Lexicon PCM bundle;
- the TC6000 with the VSS4 plugin;
- the Eventide SP2106; and
- (the new) Strymon BigSky.
I'm unsure if the Yamaha Rev-X plugin contains the same code as Rev-1, Rev-5, or Rev-7. But just looking at the controls, it seems unlikely. All other plugins are emulations or reverse-engineering efforts. It seems that getting the legendary algorithms in the box will necessarily involve painstaking reverse engineering. If we include non-reverb plugins, we have: - The Weiss DS1-MK1 (Softube)
- Korg synths (Korg)
- Sony Oxford EQ and Dynamics (Sonnox)
Does anybody know of other 1:1 hardware to plugin ports? Eventide 9000 series is all digital and same as the plugs Eventide Ultrareverb and 3000 plugs are same algorithms as the 8000 and 3000 but don’t emulate the converters and analog parts so sound different as ericn pointed out to me UAD EMT 250 and PSP EMT 2445 are the algorithms but who knows about the converter and analog emulation. The code cannot of course be run on a modern cpu. The PSP is glorious and I use it all the time. You can even run the 244 and 245 together as a stereo to stereo verb. Neumaber Wet is the same algorithm ported. It of course runs on modern CPUs and not Keith Bart’s Spin FV-1 chip |
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