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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2022 15:23:38 GMT -6
I just want to ask about the following document, it seems rather impractical to lose 38% of any room for monitor placement also it doesn't add up with other monitor placement suggestions. Neumann for example recommend that you have the monitors as close to the room boundary (rear wall) as possible or over a meter out.. I have two rooms available, one is after I measured it today 14.5 X 13 X 8.5 (which is my current control room).. The other is 27 X 18 X 8.5, if I were to follow Dynaudio's suggestion the desk even in the large room would be position exactly where the door is.
I get the feeling that these are simply too impracticle to be setup as required. I love the monitors but its not been easy to get them situated, thoughts?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 18, 2022 15:38:10 GMT -6
I forget exactly, but the 38% "rule" is for listening position, not monitor placement, no? Either way, I take it as a really loose "guide" and nothing more. There are so many variables (front ported, rear ported, sealed cab, wave guides, sub vs no sub etc) I use REW to get the best monitor placement and the one thing I've learned from that speaker placement is NOT very intuitive. Testing and listening is the only real way to do it IMHO. As always though YMMV.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2022 15:44:53 GMT -6
I forget exactly, but the 38% "rule" is for listening position, not monitor placement, no? Either way, I take it as a really loose "guide" and nothing more. There are so many variables (front ported, rear ported, sealed cab, wave guides, sub vs no sub etc) I use REW to get the best monitor placement and the one thing I've learned from that speaker placement is NOT very intuitive. Testing and listening is the only real way to do it IMHO. As always though YMMV.
I mean they sound fine (enough) next to the real wall boundary and the REW analysis isn't perfect but it's not bad either. GLM with the Genelec's didn't match REW which makes it a bit difficult to decipher what's going on. Something I need to look deeper into.. There are issues with bass dispersion with the Dyn's though, unlike the other monitors I've tested they're coming into full focus about 3M away.
Ultimately I'm concerned that I've hit a room threshold here, it's treated as best as it could be but that control room isn't exactly massive. I either pay for the additional treatment costs etc. and shift rooms or I go for something like the Neumann's which is a bit more room friendly.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 18, 2022 16:45:18 GMT -6
I forget exactly, but the 38% "rule" is for listening position, not monitor placement, no? Either way, I take it as a really loose "guide" and nothing more. There are so many variables (front ported, rear ported, sealed cab, wave guides, sub vs no sub etc) I use REW to get the best monitor placement and the one thing I've learned from that speaker placement is NOT very intuitive. Testing and listening is the only real way to do it IMHO. As always though YMMV.
I mean they sound fine (enough) next to the real wall boundary and the REW analysis isn't perfect but it's not bad either. GLM with the Genelec's didn't match REW which makes it a bit difficult to decipher what's going on. Something I need to look deeper into.. There are issues with bass dispersion with the Dyn's though, unlike the other monitors I've tested they're coming into full focus about 3M away.
Ultimately I'm concerned that I've hit a room threshold here, it's treated as best as it could be but that control room isn't exactly massive. I either pay for the additional treatment costs etc. and shift rooms or I go for something like the Neumann's which is a bit more room friendly.
Hmmm...that dynaudio guide is a little strange to me, because yeah, its not practical at all to have the monitors that far into the room. Here's what I found from Arqen, they have some great acoustic blogs on their site: arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-speaker-placement/They state their that the listening position should be 38% but only as a rough guide. That being said, I think I'd like the larger if I were you...all of other things being equal. Have you plugged both dimensions into a room mode calculator to see which room has the best ratio of HxWxD? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2022 6:07:38 GMT -6
So I've spent the last 10 hours looking into this deeply, I reviewed all of the REW and Genelec GLM information I'd gathered previously. Essentially the small room is +-3 dB across the frequency spectrum apart from 40-60Hz where theres a massive 18 dB overshoot with the Genelec's. GLM is complaining about early reflections but I sort of get the feeling that’s because they're rear ported and I have them right up against the back wall to avoid 100Hz issues.
Is that just a hypothesis? Well, I moved them around and tested a lot, at 60 cm away from the wall that 40 - 60hHz peak drops 10dB..
I could probably sort out that boost from a front ported by adding a 30 - 70Hz membrane to the back of the room so it doesn't reflect.. GLM corrected for any issues but it's still not great TBH.. It seems to me a sealed or front ported would solve a lot of issues in that small room.
I’m an acoustics newbie at best so please feel free to weigh in.. In terms of room modes, I did look into the other room and ran a calculator against it. I’m not clued up enough to take anything meaningful from the results besides the bigger room probably could support more bass (which I don’t need and 38Hz is fine) also it’ll cost a metric ton more to treat properly.
I dunno, it seems to me that Dyn document doesn’t add up.. I’ve asked my retailer to send the Neumann KH310’s back so I can measure that, with its waveguide response and sealed design my smaller room might fair better despite it having more bass to chew on.
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Post by dok on Jun 19, 2022 9:48:59 GMT -6
I like to use Carl Tatz's axial mode calculator and his null-positioning ensemble protocol. At the very least it tells you where NOT to put your speakers and chair, and how far away from your front wall you can get before placing your speakers right in a giant null. And he's generous enough to share the calculator and methodology on his site: carltatzdesign.com/acoustic-tools/ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2022 18:26:10 GMT -6
I like to use Carl Tatz's axial mode calculator and his null-positioning ensemble protocol. At the very least it tells you where NOT to put your speakers and chair, and how far away from your front wall you can get before placing your speakers right in a giant null. And he's generous enough to share the calculator and methodology on his site: carltatzdesign.com/acoustic-tools/I've already REW'd or run GLM whilst moving my monitors about multiple times. In short a rear ported ideally needs to be at least a meter away from the front wall before things start to settle down, one of the reasons I went for the Core Dyn's is they're front ported and if I use some heavy membrane treatment (which deals with 30 - 70Hz issues) across the back then it should to an extent stop lower bass frequencies reflecting back into the room.
The bigger room would dissipate bass frequncies easier as it's essentially the length of a 40Hz wave, although you'd still need the width and height to be 28 foot as well so having a bigger room doesn't solve the problem entirely. I've got a big desk and a lot of stuff so I can't avoid reflections, you'd essentially need an empty room with nothing but treatment, stands and a monitor for it to be perfect. The fact that my room is +-3dB down to 60Hz is a bit of a miracle really..
That's just downright lazy.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 21, 2022 1:41:36 GMT -6
I just want to ask about the following document, it seems rather impractical to lose 38% of any room for monitor placement also it doesn't add up with other monitor placement suggestions. Neumann for example recommend that you have the monitors as close to the room boundary (rear wall) as possible or over a meter out.. I have two rooms available, one is after I measured it today 14.5 X 13 X 8.5 (which is my current control room).. The other is 27 X 18 X 8.5, if I were to follow Dynaudio's suggestion the desk even in the large room would be position exactly where the door is.
I get the feeling that these are simply too impracticle to be setup as required. I love the monitors but its not been easy to get them situated, thoughts?
My room is only 11ft x 14ft. To minimise room nodes I have my ATC 25's as close to the back wall (with GIK traps behind them) as the 25's amp cooling instructions allows. It's an odd thing speakers either need to be in proper free space or up against a boundary wall to minimise room nodes. The only issue with putting them close to a boundary wall is bass loading. The ATC's 25's are good in this way as they are very forgiving of room placement. I'm about 33% into my room - 38% is impractical for me. If your room is small there has to be compromises! I spent a lot of money on GIK room treatment to control the bass and early reflections. |
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