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Post by jmoose on May 9, 2022 14:49:21 GMT -6
Viewing things from a historical perspective what was the first commercially available outboard preamp? And when did it show up? Probably looking back to the 1980's & 70s... possibly even before that?
Not talking about chopping up consoles & racking modules either. That's a different thing. Concentrating solely on the 19" rack outboard preamp.
When I started making records in the mid 90s the outboard preamp was already somewhat common. There wasn't the selection we have today for instance Daking was around but they had one model not five or six like today. First studio I worked at had an Amek desk and a Demeter stereo mic preamp which, honestly didn't get a lot of use. Another room I worked in had a 4000G+ and some things like Focusrite Red quad & channel strips...
But what was before that? I'm not sure things like 1950's RCA & Western Electric field mixers count here.
When did the Hardy's arrive? Lunchboxes were around in the 70s but were they common? I had been doing this for a couple years before I ever saw one. They weren't everywhere like they are today.
Would love to try & figure this out... again from a historical perspective. Was there an outboard preamp someone could just order up in 1975? 1965?
Most of the stories I've heard from "old guys" revolve around using whatever was in the desk. But at some point something had to be first to crawl out of the primordial ooze? What was it?
Secondary question, probably much easier to answer or at least get a gauge on was when did the outboard preamp become common? Like I said, by 1997 (+/-3dB) we had things like Focusrite, Joe Meek... Hardy... lots of other stuff advertised in the back of Mix Magazine. But it surely started before that.
Would love to hear some stories about people's first encounters with the outboard preamp... When & what was it? What did it get used on?
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Post by crillemannen on May 9, 2022 14:56:28 GMT -6
To my knowledge the V41 is the first preamp ever put into production. It is very nice!
Comparison between 41,72 and 76
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 9, 2022 14:59:28 GMT -6
From Sweetwater about the 512c...
"the API 512c has nothing but legendary heritage. This microphone preamplifier evolved from the original 1967-era 512 - API's first-ever modular mic pre"
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Post by EmRR on May 9, 2022 15:59:02 GMT -6
Everything used to be outboard. Consoles didn't have amps in them, they were passive control surfaces hooked up to racks of amps.
The first thing in America that needed a "pre-amp" before the main amp was the RCA ribbon since it's output was so much lower than carbon or condenser mics, so 1932 saw the RCA 41-A preamp and the RCA Photophone PA-82, which may both be the same thing in different packages. The 41-A is the rack mount version. There are other things like the 1927 Western Electric 41-A that are 'preamplifiers' meant for film sound head playback, you could use them with a mic but it wasn't the goal. The RCA's are entirely outboard rack mount before 1937, same with the WE.
The first consoles with amps in them are 1936-37.
I could probably make a list of 30+ American things before 1950 that count as 'rack mount preamp'. After that there are plenty too. Many things in the 1950's and '60's are modular rack mount, like the bigger Coil rack resembles. Some module types fit both a console and a rack version.
Along with the disqualified 'mini-console' remote mixers, there are a lot of single channel stand alone remotes that don't differ much or any from the function of modern stand-alone's. Radio always had those, and many are high quality enough for modern use. OP-6 is single channel, 1939-1949, one example.
It gets much thinner between 1960 and 1990.
The Hardy is predated by the Boulder version, late 1970's?
I don't really know when API first sold the lunchbox, I suspect long after the console 500 format existed.
Really, the two ancient trends that moved away from 'outboard rack mount' were 1) consoles with inclusive amps and then 2) consoles with modular strips. 'Consoles with modular parts and insert points capable of multi-tracking' is another debate that comes up frequently, depends on how you want to define things, the mid-1930's things count as outboard, modular, and with insert points for multi-tracking in many cases. You might not be able to mix for stereo, but you sure could track for it, depends on how many tracks you need to go down at once.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 9, 2022 21:31:44 GMT -6
Everything used to be outboard. Consoles didn't have amps in them, they were passive control surfaces hooked up to racks of amps. The first thing in America that needed a "pre-amp" before the main amp was the RCA ribbon since it's output was so much lower than carbon or condenser mics, so 1932 saw the RCA 41-A preamp and the RCA Photophone PA-82, which may both be the same thing in different packages. The 41-A is the rack mount version. There are other things like the 1927 Western Electric 41-A that are 'preamplifiers' meant for film sound head playback, you could use them with a mic but it wasn't the goal. The RCA's are entirely outboard rack mount before 1937, same with the WE. The first consoles with amps in them are 1936-37. I could probably make a list of 30+ American things before 1950 that count as 'rack mount preamp'. After that there are plenty too. Many things in the 1950's and '60's are modular rack mount, like the bigger Coil rack resembles. Some module types fit both a console and a rack version. Along with the disqualified 'mini-console' remote mixers, there are a lot of single channel stand alone remotes that don't differ much or any from the function of modern stand-alone's. Radio always had those, and many are high quality enough for modern use. OP-6 is single channel, 1939-1949, one example. It gets much thinner between 1960 and 1990. The Hardy is predated by the Boulder version, late 1970's? I don't really know when API first sold the lunchbox, I suspect long after the console 500 format existed. Really, the two ancient trends that moved away from 'outboard rack mount' were 1) consoles with inclusive amps and then 2) consoles with modular strips. 'Consoles with modular parts and insert points capable of multi-tracking' is another debate that comes up frequently, depends on how you want to define things, the mid-1930's things count as outboard, modular, and with insert points for multi-tracking in many cases. You might not be able to mix for stereo, but you sure could track for it, depends on how many tracks you need to go down at once. [/thread] |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 9, 2022 21:54:00 GMT -6
Everything used to be outboard. Consoles didn't have amps in them, they were passive control surfaces hooked up to racks of amps. The first thing in America that needed a "pre-amp" before the main amp was the RCA ribbon since it's output was so much lower than carbon or condenser mics, so 1932 saw the RCA 41-A preamp and the RCA Photophone PA-82, which may both be the same thing in different packages. The 41-A is the rack mount version. There are other things like the 1927 Western Electric 41-A that are 'preamplifiers' meant for film sound head playback, you could use them with a mic but it wasn't the goal. The RCA's are entirely outboard rack mount before 1937, same with the WE. The first consoles with amps in them are 1936-37. I could probably make a list of 30+ American things before 1950 that count as 'rack mount preamp'. After that there are plenty too. Many things in the 1950's and '60's are modular rack mount, like the bigger Coil rack resembles. Some module types fit both a console and a rack version. Along with the disqualified 'mini-console' remote mixers, there are a lot of single channel stand alone remotes that don't differ much or any from the function of modern stand-alone's. Radio always had those, and many are high quality enough for modern use. OP-6 is single channel, 1939-1949, one example. It gets much thinner between 1960 and 1990. The Hardy is predated by the Boulder version, late 1970's? I don't really know when API first sold the lunchbox, I suspect long after the console 500 format existed. Really, the two ancient trends that moved away from 'outboard rack mount' were 1) consoles with inclusive amps and then 2) consoles with modular strips. 'Consoles with modular parts and insert points capable of multi-tracking' is another debate that comes up frequently, depends on how you want to define things, the mid-1930's things count as outboard, modular, and with insert points for multi-tracking in many cases. You might not be able to mix for stereo, but you sure could track for it, depends on how many tracks you need to go down at once. The first lunch boxes were modded Aphex 4 space, in fact Paul Wolf asked Aphex if it was OK to build the little 6 space. a lot of the early outboard broadcast cast pres were popular because in small markets if “ the talent “ was working the board they didn’t have the pre in front of them. |
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Post by thecolourfulway on May 10, 2022 9:24:48 GMT -6
I wonder what was the first “modern” style standalone. Something with a power cable and I/O on the box
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Post by EmRR on May 10, 2022 12:39:48 GMT -6
I wonder what was the first “modern” style standalone. Something with a power cable and I/O on the box That's easily the Boulder, but could be wrong. But lots of the one channel radio remotes of the '60's and '70's fit that description too. Some run on AC or batteries. You could draw a line at the point almost everything included a pad and a polarity reverse. |
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Post by Guitar on May 10, 2022 12:51:46 GMT -6
It was the Behringer Midas $10,000, and/or the ART Tube MP Gold. /thread.
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Post by jmoose on May 10, 2022 13:01:55 GMT -6
The first lunch boxes were modded Aphex 4 space, in fact Paul Wolf asked Aphex if it was OK to build the little 6 space. a lot of the early outboard broadcast cast pres were popular because in small markets if “ the talent “ was working the board they didn’t have the pre in front of them. Approximately what year was this? Sounds like that could've been the start of the lunchbox as we know it today? Yeah the 312/512 & general 500 series design existed in the late 60s but I don't think any of it was available outside of a fully built frame until much later. At least... looking through whatever documentation & pictures that have passed my eyes I don't see that stuff at all. For some perspective the Eventide harmonizer wasn't around until the mid 70s... 75? And its not hard to find people talking about those... see them in pictures from that time frame. Look at outboard racks from that era and you don't see outboard preamps of any type? Its all FX & compression. |
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Post by jmoose on May 10, 2022 13:14:34 GMT -6
I wonder what was the first “modern” style standalone. Something with a power cable and I/O on the box This is kinda where I'm going. Yes maybe call it "modern" era preamps? I have a scan of an article from a 1986 issue of Mix talking about George Martin & Air Montserrat... Going from memory they were talking about the "revolutionary" installation of a 12 channel Focusrite sidecar in the SSL 4000E. Was ordered by George from Rupert because he wanted some Neve sound in the desk and that was the birth of the ISA110. Said to be the first outboard preamps? I dunno about that. First Focusrite product? Absolutely. First outboard "Neve" - quite possibly? We know that design became the ISA 215... but was that the first real "modern outboard" preamp? Doug's post is great not enough time right now I'll have to come back... but the RCA OP6 did come to mind in my original post. I've run into those... Related to adopted radio broadcast gear... what years were the BA6A (& variations) in production? Collins/Federal limiters etc... which I don't think really showed up in studios much before the 1990's? That was all 1930's & 40s yes which predates modern recording & certainly analog tape. |
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Post by EmRR on May 10, 2022 13:26:22 GMT -6
I wonder what was the first “modern” style standalone. Something with a power cable and I/O on the box This is kinda where I'm going. Yes maybe call it "modern" era preamps? I have a scan of an article from a 1986 issue of Mix talking about George Martin & Air Montserrat... Going from memory they were talking about the "revolutionary" installation of a 12 channel Focusrite sidecar in the SSL 4000E. Was ordered by George from Rupert because he wanted some Neve sound in the desk and that was the birth of the ISA110. Said to be the first outboard preamps? I dunno about that. First Focusrite product? Absolutely. First outboard "Neve" - quite possibly? We know that design became the ISA 215... but was that the first real "modern outboard" preamp? Doug's post is great not enough time right now I'll have to come back... but the RCA OP6 did come to mind in my original post. I've run into those... Related to adopted radio broadcast gear... what years were the BA6A (& variations) in production? Collins/Federal limiters etc... which I don't think really showed up in studios much before the 1990's? That was all 1930's & 40s yes which predates modern recording & certainly analog tape. Come to think of it I've seen Neve 'lunchboxes' that looked old and original. Surely they built some for remote sports use, with classic 1970ish modules we know. BA-6A is 1950-early 1960's. CBS/Columbia records west and east coast 1960's is a wall of BA-6A's. Studio B Nashville is RCA Photophone compressors, though in bypass. Predates modern recording & certainly analog tape....Hollywood was multi-tracking in the 1930's, sprocket synced mag film in parallel. Re-recording to 2nd machines the way we think of Sgt. Pepper's being done. It was the capture technology that caught up to what mixers could do, given a reason to do it. Audio amps were already full range and quiet back then, they had to be since they were used in series. We just can't tell from the recorded evidence because the capture technology still sucked. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 10, 2022 13:29:03 GMT -6
The first lunch boxes were modded Aphex 4 space, in fact Paul Wolf asked Aphex if it was OK to build the little 6 space. a lot of the early outboard broadcast cast pres were popular because in small markets if “ the talent “ was working the board they didn’t have the pre in front of them. Approximately what year was this? Sounds like that could've been the start of the lunchbox as we know it today? Yeah the 312/512 & general 500 series design existed in the late 60s but I don't think any of it was available outside of a fully built frame until much later. At least... looking through whatever documentation & pictures that have passed my eyes I don't see that stuff at all. For some perspective the Eventide harmonizer wasn't around until the mid 70s... 75? And its not hard to find people talking about those... see them in pictures from that time frame. Look at outboard racks from that era and you don't see outboard preamps of any type? Its all FX & compression. I don’t know the year, just repeating what Paul Wolf has stated many occasions. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 19:33:34 GMT -6
What about the German cassette racks from the 50s and 60s with all the TAB and Siemens stuff?
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Post by standup on May 10, 2022 20:32:58 GMT -6
First time I was in a "real" studio, early 90's, they had TubeTech mic pre and CL1B compressor in the rack for the "money tracks". Not sure about before then. When I got into recording a bit, later, I emailed the engineer about what to get, his advice was API, since it's versatile and sounds good.
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Post by jmoose on May 12, 2022 23:08:44 GMT -6
What about the German cassette racks from the 50s and 60s with all the TAB and Siemens stuff? Possibly a contender. Certainly noteworthy in the overall history of music production but to me they kinda fall in with all the RCA gear... Was it ever marketed as an "outboard" mic preamp? Not sure they were ever packaged that way? I bought a pair of TAB's the 90s and just like every one I've seen before & after? They were just loose modules. No XLR connections no power supply no frame. They've all been built into a frame w/ gain pots, phantom & so on.. My pair came out of ABC7 in NYC. Knew a guy who worked there & found a pile of V72's etc in a closet that were about to become dumpster food. Outboard preamp or simply part of a modular console? IMO its the latter. Like a Neve 1272 right? It was never a mic preamp. Now its a mic preamp but they were originally line amps buried inside a desk. Tube Tech story was great. Forgot about those we had one in the 4000G+ room and used it all the time. A true dedicated outboard mic preamp! When did things like that start showing up? Become established as a "must have" piece of record making equipment..? That's what I'm chasing here in this thread. |
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Post by jmoose on May 12, 2022 23:21:23 GMT -6
Come to think of it I've seen Neve 'lunchboxes' that looked old and original. Surely they built some for remote sports use, with classic 1970ish modules we know. Neve lunchbox... yeah! Friend of mine has a 6 channel "lunchbox" I have pictures of it buried in session documents, have tracked many a thing through it. I'll ping him & ask for specifics but I know it's 70s OG frame and said to be pulled from a BBC remote unit? |
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Post by EmRR on May 13, 2022 6:34:23 GMT -6
There was a guy in the ‘90’s who had built a ‘magic preamp’, he was gonna go into production but was renting the one for so much that he stayed on the road with it instead. Apparently it looked like junk and had a sharpie label near the gain control “sounds good here”. I can never remember the guys name, but it’s on Mariah Carey records among others.
Not sure when the PAiA mic preamp kit first appeared, it was in their catalog in the early 1990's. PAiA is still in the kit business!
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Post by jmoose on May 16, 2022 14:47:00 GMT -6
I wonder what was the first “modern” style standalone. Something with a power cable and I/O on the box That's easily the Boulder, but could be wrong. But lots of the one channel radio remotes of the '60's and '70's fit that description too. Some run on AC or batteries. You could draw a line at the point almost everything included a pad and a polarity reverse. Ok so you've mentioned the "Boulder" a couple times... I'm not familiar with that and only thing I can find via smoogle is modern audiophile gear..? Got a model # and info on the Neve "lunchbox" and while rare there's handful out there & documention. Steve Albini seems to have one, of course he does! Neve B002 - 6 channel early 70s BBC portable. The one my friend has looks exactly the same, though he told me he thought it was pulled from a BBC remote desk that does NOT seem to be the origin. Really appears to have been a standalone solution. electricalaudio.com/outboard-1/p/neve-b002 |
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Post by EmRR on May 16, 2022 15:27:08 GMT -6
That's easily the Boulder, but could be wrong. But lots of the one channel radio remotes of the '60's and '70's fit that description too. Some run on AC or batteries. You could draw a line at the point almost everything included a pad and a polarity reverse. Ok so you've mentioned the "Boulder" a couple times... I'm not familiar with that and only thing I can find via smoogle is modern audiophile gear..? Got a model # and info on the Neve "lunchbox" and while rare there's handful out there & documention. Steve Albini seems to have one, of course he does! Neve B002 - 6 channel early 70s BBC portable. The one my friend has looks exactly the same, though he told me he thought it was pulled from a BBC remote desk that does NOT seem to be the origin. Really appears to have been a standalone solution. electricalaudio.com/outboard-1/p/neve-b002Nice, a pic! Boulder - Google sucks now. Oh, here's one: reverb.com/item/11468515-boulder-jensen-twin-servo-stereo-microphone-preamp-w-psu-dual-mic-990-32153 Boulder Amplifiers made the original version of the 990 Twin Servo preamp. There used to be plentiful pictures of them on the interwebs, and info, and a one sheet. Jensen took over production pretty quickly. Jensen may have co-marketed the Boulder, I think I've seen the one sheet in an old Jensen binder. I think they also made a hi-fi power amp. It does look like Boulder soldiers on. messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=11025There we find John Hardy saying he started selling his pre in 1987, with the Boulder starting in 1986. |
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Post by winetree on May 16, 2022 18:42:51 GMT -6
Way back when, I always used the mic preamps in the Harrison console. Other than some original rack mounted Neve modules I had, the Deane Jensen Boulder dual servo mic preamp was the first commercial rack mounted preamp I was aware of. I bought one and still have it.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2022 23:27:47 GMT -6
What about the German cassette racks from the 50s and 60s with all the TAB and Siemens stuff? Possibly a contender. Certainly noteworthy in the overall history of music production but to me they kinda fall in with all the RCA gear... Was it ever marketed as an "outboard" mic preamp? Not sure they were ever packaged that way? I bought a pair of TAB's the 90s and just like every one I've seen before & after? They were just loose modules. No XLR connections no power supply no frame. They've all been built into a frame w/ gain pots, phantom & so on.. My pair came out of ABC7 in NYC. Knew a guy who worked there & found a pile of V72's etc in a closet that were about to become dumpster food. Outboard preamp or simply part of a modular console? IMO its the latter. Like a Neve 1272 right? It was never a mic preamp. Now its a mic preamp but they were originally line amps buried inside a desk. Tube Tech story was great. Forgot about those we had one in the 4000G+ room and used it all the time. A true dedicated outboard mic preamp! When did things like that start showing up? Become established as a "must have" piece of record making equipment..? That's what I'm chasing here in this thread. True a modular console. Also the Drawmer 1960 is from the 80s and predates the Hardy. 1984 according to their website. |
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Post by EmRR on May 17, 2022 15:05:48 GMT -6
Circling back around to the ancient stuff, many/most companies had modular rack preamps that were not the same as their console modules, or were constructed differently for rack use. As RCA transitioned from stand alone rack pieces in 1937, they added a rack system that could hold a power supply and 3 preamps (and power another rack with 6 more preamps), and that continued on until they miniaturized in the 1950's, then the rack got shorter and held more preamps along with the power supply. Most of those systems could be configured as 'rack consoles', with a program amp or compressor, though if people were using something other than a stock console it implied larger needs than the console would handle on it's own. Here's 12 channels I have in use, representing 1938-1954:  Altec, GE, WE, Collins, Gates, and others all had similar systems. The old Euro systems are similar. The single biggest difference of then versus now is hardwiring, no connectors on the racks, since everything would almost always be on patchbays. All that UREI gear from the 70's-80's with just barrier strips meant for patchbay wiring; about the same. Altec 1566A is a standalone with attached power cable and barrier strip in/out in a single rack space, roughly 1958. Here's late 1930's RCA in a large multi-studio installation, the console is routing audio from 5 different studios, some with their own racks of preamps/amps and passive consoles. Visible, 8 completely stand alone preamps/amps and 19 preamp channels running on external power supplies.  |
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Post by rob61 on May 18, 2022 10:35:16 GMT -6
True a modular console. Also the Drawmer 1960 is from the 80s and predates the Hardy. 1984 according to their website. I had a Drawmer 1960 mic pre/ tube compressor if that's what you are referring to. The compressor was tube, but the preamps were solid state chip based and sounded to me aweful. Never used them for anything. The tube compressor circuit was ok, good on BG Vox. But it never lived up to its hype and was glad to get rid of it. I do have 4 channels of Hardy, and they are superb. |
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Post by Guitar on May 18, 2022 10:47:55 GMT -6
True a modular console. Also the Drawmer 1960 is from the 80s and predates the Hardy. 1984 according to their website. I had a Drawmer 1960 mic pre/ tube compressor if that's what you are referring to. The compressor was tube, but the preamps were solid state chip based and sounded to me aweful. Never used them for anything. The tube compressor circuit was ok, good on BG Vox. But it never lived up to its hype and was glad to get rid of it. I do have 4 channels of Hardy, and they are superb. Integrated circuit / monolithic op amps weren't so hot in the '80s... Good for fuzz pedals, maybe not mic preamps X-D |
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