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Post by lolo on May 20, 2014 22:14:49 GMT -6
Interesting Post by Greg from UBK on Facebook.
"I daresay this has become a bit of a lost art, maybe we can bring it back. I'm actually going to venture a guess that a good number of you reading this aren't immediately sure what I mean by 'vocal phrasing.' Fear not, it's actually quite simple.
Something I've noticed about a lot of current music is that not many singers sing phrases anymore, they just sing complete lines or half-lines. But any given vocal line is often (usually?) comprised of phrases within the line, and if you can find interesting, artistic ways to separate those lyrical phrases into discrete vocal phrases, you tap into a wickedly powerful mechanism for drawing more emotion and meaning out of the lyric, and a way to inject a ton of your individual personality and style into each and every line.
Take this line from a current JT hit:
"So don't act like it's a bad thing to fall in love with me"
When he sings that line (and almost every other line in the song), there is not one single break for air, not one separation of words, they're sung start to finish.
But how else could it be done? Look for groups of words that make sense as discrete chunks, that communicate ideas, that lead you to the next thought, that can be drawn out and stretched or compressed for emotional weight, playfulness, impact... anything to break the easily digestible but equally forgettable string of notes that much pop seems content to blow through in fast, highly repetitive streams.
Other possibilities:
Groovy:
"So dooon't | act liiike | it's a bad thinnng | to-fall in-love with-me"
Or sappy:
"Sooo | don't aaaaact | like it's | aaa | baaad thing | to faaalll | in looove with | meeee."
Or punchy:
"So don't | act | like it's a bad | thing | to fall | in | love | with me."
Oftentimes, phrasing can let you get away with fewer words because you're opening up space, making less count for more. I'm generally in favor of that. You can also shift tempo's around a bit as you find a pacing that allows for the right cadence, the right space-to-sound ratio on that ever critical element, the lead vocal.
Food for thought on a Tuesday, enjoy!
Gregory Scott | ubk"
Good read. Thought this might be a interesting subject.
JK, sorry if this is in the wrong sub forum
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Post by Johnkenn on May 20, 2014 22:26:43 GMT -6
I blame this on rap. Rap is funny to me - all of the feeling and natural syncopation and held out expression is squeezed out. Maybe that's fine when you're talking - like rap artists do - but now that it has been adopted into a singing form like bro country, it just sounds...well...WHITE. No soul. No feeling. Just rhymes and similies.
Phrasing is something you feel, not something you're taught.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 20, 2014 23:33:18 GMT -6
the hip thing to do in rap is to not display any rhythm at all? i honestly think it's because most don't have any smh, i also think the fact that a guy needs to post a memo about phrasing is a representative of a sad state of affairs in modern music, the absurd amount of delusion it takes for people to call themselves musicians when they don't know what phrasing is, is a sign of bad times, what a joke. I worked my ass off to be able to play, there are far too may pretenders out there taking up space, we should be collectively shaming them into obscurity, i think we all need to seek out these frauds, and heckle them at their gigs, yell things between auto tuned renditions like "stop doing that!" "practice at home!" or "NO!!!!" lol  ever hear a so called "rock singer" try to pull off a cover of AC/DC back in black? even if they can hit the notes, they always mutilate the vox phrasing(which happens to be bad ass), it's like watching a crazed, panic stricken cat trying to get out of a burlap bag. I'm not begrudging anyone who wants to have fun, but don't fancy yourself a musician if you aint got nothin, just squalor in your car and leave the rest of us alone please. Seriously though, Great phrasing rides on the back of a great sense of rhythm imv, and both of those become developed and understood through hard painstaking practice/work(it can be taught). Then you can get started on melody, harmony, composition and songwriting etc, then and only then, do you have license to call yourself a practicing musician, until then, "Stop doing that!!" "NO!!!!", "Practice at home!" lol |
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Post by lolo on May 21, 2014 1:03:35 GMT -6
Agree with both you fellas.
And i think alot of modern country lack feeling. Vocally. Also pop and rock.
Also think there is that sense of believing the mixing engineer will add emotion mixing time.
For me it was a good read in the sense because, We can always strive to deliver our songs better. Feel of a song, emotion is very important to me.
Garth Brooks is always a good example for me. I can really feel him when that fella sings. Perfect phrasing.
Also listened to a eric church song today. Same thing.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on May 21, 2014 3:22:10 GMT -6
Garth Brooks has an impeccable sense of timing. A pure story teller and in my mind, the best salesman in the business . He could sell a song if he were reading it from a phone book. I don't think that sort of thing can be taught. You just have it or you don't. I'm sure he practiced and honed what he was given, though.
Another thing about him is he isn't afraid to get out of his comfort zone, performance wise or lyrically. Nothing is out of bounds. That's the mark of a truly great artist in my book and why he has made a zillion dollars. He connects with so many people on different levels.
There are those who hear a song (or write one) and think "that's just not me". Well, I don't know if it's possible for Garth to think that. If the song doesn't suit him, he will MAKE it suit him.
My favorite GB song is That Summer. He tells a simple story in that song and every time I hear it, I feel like I'm in the story. I'd bet the story wouldn't have near the impact if a lessor artist performed it. He sells every word. Go do a case study on that song lolo. It's a how to.
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Post by henge on May 21, 2014 4:48:37 GMT -6
I blame this on rap. Rap is funny to me - all of the feeling and natural syncopation and held out expression is squeezed out. Maybe that's fine when you're talking - like rap artists do - but now that it has been adopted into a singing form like bro country, it just sounds...well...WHITE. No soul. No feeling. Just rhymes and similies. Phrasing is something you feel, not something you're taught. This is the first thing that came to mind after reading lolo's post. People talking instead of singing phrases has never been a good thing in my books...unless it's an old RnB breakdown or Barry white! Any idiot can talk, and they all do. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 21, 2014 7:41:12 GMT -6
the hip thing to do in rap is to not display any rhythm at all? i honestly think it's because most don't have any smh, i also think the fact that a guy needs to post a memo about phrasing is a representative of a sad state of affairs in modern music, the absurd amount of delusion it takes for people to call themselves musicians when they don't know what phrasing is, is a sign of bad times, what a joke. I worked my ass off to be able to play, there are far too may pretenders out there taking up space, we should be collectively shaming them into obscurity, i think we all need to seek out these frauds, and heckle them at their gigs, yell things between auto tuned renditions like "stop doing that!" "practice at home!" or "NO!!!!" lol ever hear a so called "rock singer" try to pull off a cover of AC/DC back in black? even if they can hit the notes, they always mutilate the vox phrasing(which happens to be bad ass), it's like watching a crazed, panic stricken cat trying to get out of a burlap bag. I'm not begrudging anyone who wants to have fun, but don't fancy yourself a musician if you aint got nothin, just squalor in your car and leave the rest of us alone please. Seriously though, Great phrasing rides on the back of a great sense of rhythm imv, and both of those become developed and understood through hard painstaking practice/work(it can be taught). Then you can get started on melody, harmony, composition and songwriting etc, then and only then, do you have license to call yourself a practicing musician, until then, "Stop doing that!!" "NO!!!!", "Practice at home!" lol I didn't mean that rappers don't have rhythm - certainly they do...and they can syncopate too...Really good rappers are really great at this. I just think it's been butchered by white kids into this rat-a-tat-tat style of vocal with inner rhymes every four words...there's no emotion anymore. Maybe that's what I'm really trying to say. Very few know how to interpret the phrase to draw out emotion. Hell, there aren't really many songs left that talk about emotions - it's just all pictures these days. Tailgates, dirt roads, Hank Jr on the radio...Here's what I mean about phrasing these days: (I'm just babbling to make a point) "We were sitting by that old Lake/on my tailgate/and we couldn't wait/for the sun to shine we were taking our time" Ugh...I just wrote a No.1 |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 21, 2014 7:52:59 GMT -6
You know - I know to some people, I come off like a bitter old "It used to be THIS way" kind of guy talking about this stuff. But for one, 40 isn't old...And I don't deny when something is good. It's just that SOOO much BAD is out there, you can either stand your ground and fight for what you think is right or shut up and take it. I feel like I back it up with my own writing. Sure, not every thing I write is even close to being great - but I STRIVE to be great. The problem that I have is that the large majority of the guys out there making music don't even know the difference.
I had a songwriter friend refer to these people as, "Them that don't know they don't know"...these are the supremely confident people that just have no ability to assess themselves. Is my stuff as good as the greats? THAT is what I'm shooting for. Maybe I take this stuff too seriously...but I DO think of it as an artform...so sue me.
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Post by matt on May 21, 2014 8:04:42 GMT -6
"We were sitting by that old Lake/on my tailgate/and we couldn't wait/for the sun to shine we were taking our time" Big moon in the sky/starlight in her eyes/pressed the bottle to her lips/girl, lay back for me/your love is mine to see |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 21, 2014 12:06:08 GMT -6
Johnkenn yes I agree with your posts, there are quite a few rappers out there that kill it! no doubt, I really dig some of it, but I have heard a lions load of poop for every decent groove. A bunch of these guys(the ones we're talking about here)seemingly have no ability to groove or lay down anything that possesses a hint of phrase weighty rhythm, I don't think I'm imagining this, and I do believe it's because they simply don't get it. as far as learning phrasing, we learn everything we do at some point between birth and death, but like everything else, some people are naturally better at things than others, the bs idea of someone calling themselves a musician, who doesn't know what phrasing is, is tantamount to someone calling themselves a pilot, who's never flown a plane? of course, as always jmo
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Post by scumbum on May 21, 2014 13:03:52 GMT -6
You know - I know to some people, I come off like a bitter old "It used to be THIS way" kind of guy talking about this stuff. But for one, 40 isn't old...And I don't deny when something is good. It's just that SOOO much BAD is out there, you can either stand your ground and fight for what you think is right or shut up and take it. I feel like I back it up with my own writing. Sure, not every thing I write is even close to being great - but I STRIVE to be great. The problem that I have is that the large majority of the guys out there making music don't even know the difference. I had a songwriter friend refer to these people as, "Them that don't know they don't know"...these are the supremely confident people that just have no ability to assess themselves. Is my stuff as good as the greats? THAT is what I'm shooting for. Maybe I take this stuff too seriously...but I DO think of it as an artform...so sue me. This is exactly how I feel too . Its a weird world we live in today . It seems like this is the younger generations coming up .... "supremely confident people that just have no ability to assess themselves"...... As far as vocal phrasing , this is a good article here , www.askavocalcoach.com/articles/singing-with-emotion/And this video is about placing breaths in your phrasing , |
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Post by Ward on May 21, 2014 13:42:53 GMT -6
Q. Phrasing?
A. Frank Sinatra
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Post by tonycamphd on May 21, 2014 15:28:44 GMT -6
Q. Phrasing? A. Frank Sinatra yes yes yes!!! |
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Post by Ward on May 21, 2014 19:40:18 GMT -6
Everything we know about modern vocal phrasing, we learned from Frank Sinatra. If you closely examine Frank's phrasing from the 1940s through the 1960s then listen to how popular music was phrased, vocally, prior to and then after Sinatra, you'll come to appreciate the profound influence he has had on all of us.
His influence is even heard in blues and metal singers, whether they realize it or not.
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Post by wiz on May 21, 2014 19:53:05 GMT -6
I think "phrasing" is everything in music.
Its something I think about continually, writing, soloing, singing, singing back up. Man , its everything... well that and light and shade.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on May 21, 2014 20:12:02 GMT -6
Marvin Gaye too...my god...freaking killer.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 22, 2014 11:10:08 GMT -6
It all began with Ella Fitzgerald in the Chick Web band. Both swing and rock can be traced directly to that band and its singers who were Ella and Louis Jordan.
Sinatra was a poser compared to Ella and he'd probably agree 100% with that assessment. One of the very best nobody seems to notice was Cash.
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Post by Ward on May 23, 2014 6:39:21 GMT -6
It all began with Ella Fitzgerald in the Chick Web band. Both swing and rock can be traced directly to that band and its singers who were Ella and Louis Jordan. Sinatra was a poser compared to Ella and he'd probably agree 100% with that assessment. One of the very best nobody seems to notice was Cash. Every bone in my body wants to argue with that... but I really can't. EF was amazing. And Cash, just timeless and will be relevant for another century at least. I don't think Sinatra was a poser, I think he built on EF's phrasing... and brought it to the mindsets of billions of us. He had pretty amazing breath control too, for a heavy smoker. And his breathing was a part of his phrasing. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 23, 2014 7:23:52 GMT -6
Cash is really fantastic. The Folsom Prison album is so good it gives me chills. I can't think of any album that feels more real.
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