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Post by phdamage on Feb 8, 2022 14:39:34 GMT -6
So I have a monthly gig recording a live spoken performance. The setup is very simple - one mic for the speaker and a spaced pair for the audience. They did recommend/suggest shotgun mics for the audience. I have gotten by for the last few years using a pair of SDCs - first AT4051s and now KSM137s, though I have plenty of other options.
I found a good price for a pair of AT4073s. I have never heard a complaint from the client about the audience mics but I’m wondering if a shotgun mic *might* be better. The SDCs tend to get some closer audience members more than I would like at times.
While this gig is easy and pretty fun, I don’t know how much more gear I want to invest in just this. Are there other cool applications for shotgun mics for more traditional rock band in studio situations? I’ve literally never used one.
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rpc
Junior Member
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Post by rpc on Feb 8, 2022 14:50:01 GMT -6
I don't think you need to go as far as shotguns for the audience; a pair of hypercardioid (Sennheiser MKH50/8050 comes to mind) above the front row and aimed above the back of the audience should smooth out the front/back difference pretty well. I personally can't think of a use for a shotgun mike in a studio; there might be an application in a live setting.
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Post by svart on Feb 8, 2022 15:07:48 GMT -6
Shotguns are a bit overkill for audience work. They tend to accentuate a very small "spot" in the pickup pattern but the phasing grills tend to cut down the signal somewhat too, which is why you see them held very close to the talent when filming, etc. They might end up being a bit quiet for audience work IMHO.
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Post by phdamage on Feb 8, 2022 16:21:45 GMT -6
thanks for confirming my suspicions! I seem to remember hearing about folks using them on snare drum at times, oddly enough?
I just got a pair of hypercardioid caps for my Oktava MK012s. might give them a shot next time.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 9, 2022 7:32:30 GMT -6
Shotguns are useful pieces if you’re doing a half dozen audience mics. As a pair? No.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 9, 2022 12:45:00 GMT -6
yeah not a good application for this.
A cardiod would be perfectly fine or omni for this if you're just doing a pair.
What you have is perfectly fine.
Although I have to ask, whats the point? Like why are they requesting audience mics specifically? Just to capture their reactions?
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Post by phdamage on Feb 9, 2022 18:14:44 GMT -6
yeah not a good application for this. A cardiod would be perfectly fine or omni for this if you're just doing a pair. What you have is perfectly fine. Although I have to ask, whats the point? Like why are they requesting audience mics specifically? Just to capture their reactions? exactly. sometimes the pieces are broadcast. I can't imagine they use them much. I have to keep them to the side of the stage, mostly out of eyesight and the audience is dead quiet for most of it - it's impossible to get rid of all the spill from the PA. |
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 10, 2022 14:53:24 GMT -6
Shotguns will focus the pattern on a couple people in the audience. Not a great idea for audience mics...UNLESS you point them away from the audience and toward something reflective. You could try pointing them at the ceiling or something if you REALLY needed (or already had) some shotgun mics.
A thing I've really liked for stuff like that when the mics have to be near stage is a condenser in figure-8. Narrower than Cardioid (meaning you can aim it beyond the front couple rows), picks up more ambience than cardioid and has really deep nulls on the sides.
If you're picking up too much of a specific portion of the audience, something you could do would be to get the mics higher up and potentially over the crowd. It'll change the ratio of distance from the first row to the last row. It won't be perfect but going as high as you can, using figure 8 to minimize the bleed from the PA, and cheating the direction of the mics' focus towards the middle/back of the crowd might add up to you getting a significant improvement.
One more thought: You could move your audience mics forward in time and reverse the polarity to try to phase cancel some of the PA spill. You'll still get the ambience from the room but you'll get way less direct PA added by the mics. It's basically the opposite of what we're trying to do when we're time-aligning PA speakers in different audience zones.
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Post by phdamage on Feb 10, 2022 15:10:54 GMT -6
Shotguns will focus the pattern on a couple people in the audience. Not a great idea for audience mics...UNLESS you point them away from the audience and toward something reflective. You could try pointing them at the ceiling or something if you REALLY needed (or already had) some shotgun mics. A thing I've really liked for stuff like that when the mics have to be near stage is a condenser in figure-8. Narrower than Cardioid (meaning you can aim it beyond the front couple rows), picks up more ambience than cardioid and has really deep nulls on the sides. If you're picking up too much of a specific portion of the audience, something you could do would be to get the mics higher up and potentially over the crowd. It'll change the ratio of distance from the first row to the last row. It won't be perfect but going as high as you can, using figure 8 to minimize the bleed from the PA, and cheating the direction of the mics' focus towards the middle/back of the crowd might add up to you getting a significant improvement. One more thought: You could move your audience mics forward in time and reverse the polarity to try to phase cancel some of the PA spill. You'll still get the ambience from the room but you'll get way less direct PA added by the mics. It's basically the opposite of what we're trying to do when we're time-aligning PA speakers in different audience zones. yeah, I'm a little limited where I can place them. there are hosts that sit near the one side of the stage, audience members come up on the other side of the stage, near the other mic, and the PA is actually above the stage (L and R), so raising them up is really not much of an option. I've been doing okay with cardioid pointing at a nearby wall. They have their own people do editing, so no messing with the files (per their request/instruction). |
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 10, 2022 15:19:17 GMT -6
yeah, I'm a little limited where I can place them. there are hosts that sit near the one side of the stage, audience members come up on the other side of the stage, near the other mic, and the PA is actually above the stage (L and R), so raising them up is really not much of an option. I've been doing okay with cardioid pointing at a nearby wall. They have their own people do editing, so no messing with the files (per their request/instruction). Cool. So then figure-8s with the nulls oriented toward the the flown PA might give you a pretty good situation! Let us know what ends up working best for ya'! |
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Post by phdamage on Feb 10, 2022 16:02:15 GMT -6
yeah, I'm a little limited where I can place them. there are hosts that sit near the one side of the stage, audience members come up on the other side of the stage, near the other mic, and the PA is actually above the stage (L and R), so raising them up is really not much of an option. I've been doing okay with cardioid pointing at a nearby wall. They have their own people do editing, so no messing with the files (per their request/instruction). Cool. So then figure-8s with the nulls oriented toward the the flown PA might give you a pretty good situation! Let us know what ends up working best for ya'! curious what fig 8 SDCs are out there? I know Oktava have fig 8 caps for the 012s. I have several LDCs with fig8, but no matched pairs, really. Have plenty of ribbons, but I think noise will get me into trouble and don't love the idea of carting them around a bunch. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 10, 2022 18:00:32 GMT -6
Cool. So then figure-8s with the nulls oriented toward the the flown PA might give you a pretty good situation! Let us know what ends up working best for ya'! curious what fig 8 SDCs are out there? I know Oktava have fig 8 caps for the 012s. I have several LDCs with fig8, but no matched pairs, really. Have plenty of ribbons, but I think noise will get me into trouble and don't love the idea of carting them around a bunch. Schoeps and Sennheiser make SDC fig 8s. Really nice ones actually. Not cheap though. |
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Post by superwack on Feb 10, 2022 20:02:40 GMT -6
Maybe they asked for shotguns BECAUSE they want you to pick up specific audience members (aka plants whose reactions are pre-planned!) LOL
I've never used a shotgun on snare but I remember being on a tour of A&M records decades ago and Ozzy was recording in the big room and the kit was set up with a shotgun maybe 15 feet above the snare facing down. I always thought that was interesting.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 11, 2022 0:03:05 GMT -6
Cool. So then figure-8s with the nulls oriented toward the the flown PA might give you a pretty good situation! Let us know what ends up working best for ya'! curious what fig 8 SDCs are out there? I know Oktava have fig 8 caps for the 012s. I have several LDCs with fig8, but no matched pairs, really. Have plenty of ribbons, but I think noise will get me into trouble and don't love the idea of carting them around a bunch. Do they demand you use SDCs? I was assuming you'd probably have to grab some LDCs for that. On the other hand, I think there are a few out there that offer SDCs with figure-8. I'm looking at the Vanguard V1s and those offer a swappable capsule that can be set to figure-8. |
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rpc
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by rpc on Feb 11, 2022 9:27:38 GMT -6
"curious what fig 8 SDCs are out there?"
The "classic" figure 8 SDC is the Sennheiser MKH30 - not cheap, though. Sennheiser MKH800 (recently discontinued except for the Twin) is also excellent, but $$$. (Though I have to say the MKH800 is what I pack when I absolutely don't know what to expect going into a hall.) Schoeps MK8 is good, though not as symmetric (not a big deal for this application). Ambient Emesser ATE 308 is (slightly) less expensive. Someone has mentioned the Oktava. Going down the spectrum, Shure Beta 181 has a figure 8 head available. (Wow, there's actually a lot more available than I thought!)
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Post by superwack on Feb 11, 2022 14:59:25 GMT -6
There's also the awesome Neumann KM86 - I would love to own a pair if I had the $$$
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,009 
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Post by ericn on Feb 13, 2022 13:00:55 GMT -6
The back lobe of any shotgun , super cardiod or hyper cardiod makes them really terrible audience mics. You really want to eliminate stage pickup and cardiod is best for that.
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