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Post by svart on May 12, 2014 9:03:28 GMT -6
I just hired my first session musician, a guitarist. They had a good back catalog of work on their own band's records and they are on a band hiatus and looking for work.
I had never met this person before, but I'm in a time crunch and I needed someone to come in a nail some parts in a short time. We agreed to a fee and I wasn't disappointed in the least. They came in and delivered without any problems other than trying to overplay a little bit.
I was very pleasantly surprised and will be hiring this person again in a heartbeat if the job and budget allow.
Do any of you hire session musicians? Good stories? Bad stories?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2014 15:28:15 GMT -6
I've never hired a session musician. Most of the stuff I do is pop/rock stuff and if there's ever a need for a competent drummer who can play with the right dynamics and not overplay, I'm well suited to that along with guitars and bass.
There's enough guys I know though that if I ever needed I could bring some good players in.
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Post by keymod on May 13, 2014 3:56:44 GMT -6
A few years ago I worked with a remote session musician, sax player, for a project I was producing for a client friend. I'm here in CT, USA and he is in the UK. Everything was done online using file transfers. I was very pleased with the entire process. His name is Nick Samuel, goes by Nick-the-Sax on the purple site. I would use him again.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 14, 2014 8:15:30 GMT -6
Man - when you can get in a groove with guys that share tastes and you can really communicate ideas to, it's unbelievable. After years of demos, I have guys that I always get - guys that want to be there - and care about what they're doing...Those guys are the stars of the business...
I just did a session yesterday where they cut two of the songs on the first take. They walked in. Listened down to the song for the first time reading the chart. Walked out in the room...and...boom - immediate record. I'm a cynical bastard and I'm still just blown away. Not just playing things perfectly, but playing parts, playing off of each other, signature licks, NO STOCK, fresh...These guys play together alot and I'm sure that's a huge contributing factor, but this HAS to be what it was like at Motown or with the Wrecking Crew. I have to say - the Union does the musicians at this level a disservice, because they aren't making ENOUGH money.
Here's my biggest role as a "Producer" - Casting. Oh yeah - and shutting the hell up...
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Post by keymod on May 14, 2014 9:21:53 GMT -6
What's it cost you for a session of that caliber?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 14, 2014 9:26:44 GMT -6
www.nashvillemusicians.org/?pg=scalesDepends if it's master, limited pressing or demo scale. Demo scale is $312 for leader and $156 for each side musician. Limited pressing (10,000 sales and under) twice that and master more.
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Post by keymod on May 14, 2014 9:40:28 GMT -6
Lots of complicated stuff on that website..............
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 14, 2014 10:36:47 GMT -6
www.nashvillemusicians.org/?pg=scalesDepends if it's master, limited pressing or demo scale. Demo scale is $312 for leader and $156 for each side musician. Limited pressing (10,000 sales and under) twice that and master more. These are for 3 hour sessions? Is that right? |
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Post by henge on May 14, 2014 11:05:49 GMT -6
Absolutely! I have a steel player that I use because I can't play steel and he brings magic to the tracks. I used cowboycoalminer for fiddle and it was killer. He'll be getting all my fiddle calls from now on. I hire female singers to sing on publishing demos from time to time. As Johnkenn said finding the right session guys brings magic and makes things way easier. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 14, 2014 12:55:28 GMT -6
it would be nice to be a first call guy if you could do 3 sessions a day, but i'm sure fiddlers like Stew Duncan command more $ than this right Johnkenn ? |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 14, 2014 15:19:32 GMT -6
No - they're union, so everyone is the same price. Of course, guys do it off the card occasionally.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 14, 2014 15:29:11 GMT -6
Yeah - it's confusing as hell. And it adds up. If you're doing a record, you need to pay limited pressing which is $196 for side musicians and $393 for the leader. If you spend an hour on each song, that's three songs a session. Lets say you're doing 11 songs...that's 4 sessions. So - lets say you get 5 guys total. The Leader makes $393 x 4 and the side musicians all make $196.50 x 4...So - that's $4716 for the musicians for 4 sessions. Then you pay 11.99% of the total for pension to the union. Then $24 per player for "Health & Welfare"...Then you have cartage for Drums, and other instruments you want to bring multiple instruments...that's about $150 apiece. Then you pay for the studio. Then the Engineer. Then the assistant. It ain't cheap.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 14, 2014 15:57:45 GMT -6
It ain't cheap and I'm sure that the session guys aren't getting rich either unless they're truly top tier and working all the time.
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Post by svart on May 15, 2014 8:06:00 GMT -6
Yeah - it's confusing as hell. And it adds up. If you're doing a record, you need to pay limited pressing which is $196 for side musicians and $393 for the leader. If you spend an hour on each song, that's three songs a session. Lets say you're doing 11 songs...that's 4 sessions. So - lets say you get 5 guys total. The Leader makes $393 x 4 and the side musicians all make $196.50 x 4...So - that's $4716 for the musicians for 4 sessions. Then you pay 11.99% of the total for pension to the union. Then $24 per player for "Health & Welfare"...Then you have cartage for Drums, and other instruments you want to bring multiple instruments...that's about $150 apiece. Then you pay for the studio. Then the Engineer. Then the assistant. It ain't cheap. Mygod. That total is about 4 times what I can get from a band for a full 6-8 song production here. There's absolutely no way I could pay that kind of money to hire in musicians. Glad I'm not trying to work up there. Freakin unions man.. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 15, 2014 10:43:47 GMT -6
I think that rate is extremely fair. So for a demo rate the side musicians make about $35 an hour. Are you paying less than that? For major label records, the side musicians make about $130 and hour. Considering Katie Perry sells 2 million records on the back of that guitar riff...that's a pretty great deal.
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Post by svart on May 15, 2014 11:45:52 GMT -6
I think that rate is extremely fair. So for a demo rate the side musicians make about $35 an hour. Are you paying less than that? For major label records, the side musicians make about $130 and hour. Considering Katie Perry sells 2 million records on the back of that guitar riff...that's a pretty great deal. Yes, of course I am paying less than that. There is no way I could afford that. Like I said, I can barely get bands to pay 1200-1500 for 6-8 songs worth of recording and mixing. That comes out to around 6-8 days of work at around 3-10 hours a day depending on how good the bands are. That's averaging around 15-18$ an hour, just for my labor. If I require a session musician, I'm certainly not getting the band to pay 35$+ an hour for a session musician because I can barely get 15-18$ for myself. I could get maybe 10$ an hour tops for them, otherwise the musicians are just going to either stand by what they've done, or keep doing takes until it's close enough. Even then it's hard enough to get a band member to realize/admit that their part needs a professional to do it... Anyway, lets counter what you said about deals.. Lets just say that as an Electrical Engineer, I don't even get paid nearly 35$ an hour, and my designs have made the company an estimated 40 million+$. Think my rate is fair or a great deal? By industry standards it is, for both the company and myself. If I pushed hard for more money I'd probably just be replaced by someone from China. At some point you have to realize that an hour's work is just an hour's work. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 15, 2014 11:52:48 GMT -6
I think that rate is extremely fair. So for a demo rate the side musicians make about $35 an hour. Are you paying less than that? For major label records, the side musicians make about $130 and hour. Considering Katie Perry sells 2 million records on the back of that guitar riff...that's a pretty great deal. Hate to get political, but it's applicable here.. Those scale wages are totally fair, top of the food chain executive are making SHIT tons of $, Spotify and those other shit streaming conglomerates are doing the same as one of many examples. This country was built with union labor, yet everyday folks parrot and rail against unions(and their own personal best interests). Yes, Unions can be all fucked up, they have their problems of course, but in principle, they're there to ensure a good wage and protection for their members, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater?? This is a media controlled message "demonizing" unions by the RICH in this country, to protect their own self serving interests, and to get the gullible to shoot themselves in the foot, so they can take more money. If musicians were more unionized/organized, they would have brought down these shit head spotify types that are screwing them by now. Power to the People! www.epi.org/publication/ib331-ceo-pay-top-1-percent/ |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 15, 2014 12:04:16 GMT -6
svart "By industry standards it is, for both the company and myself. If I pushed hard for more money I'd probably just be replaced by someone from China. At some point you have to realize that an hour's work is just an hour's work."so much for American exceptionalism, this proves my point about unions, Americans used to have a standard, an expectation of fairness in wages and living conditions, that's going to shit when a smart guy like you says something like above, this is not meant to be a slight on you at all, i don't know how you feel about yourself, i know you know your shit. but i work hard, and i deserve my fair share, and if some rich fuck thinks he's gonna con it from me, he's gonna die trying. Unfortunately, most people in this country just hand it over because someone who they perceive as more important than them, tells them too. again, power to the people, but first they need to wake up.
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Post by svart on May 15, 2014 12:32:41 GMT -6
Honestly, I dislike that jobs are going overseas, but I also believe that the free market(NOT the government) works, but we don't live in a free market at all. However, there are more jobs coming back to the USA from china than going over there. The rate for degreed engineers was roughly 10:1 15 years ago. Now it's about 1.5:1, with spending additional money on lawyers to protect international intellectual property rising everyday.
Now for my personal opinion..
I hate unions. The modern union has taken down just about every industry it's ever been in. Cars. Airplanes. Telecom, etc. Each one has fallen and been bailed out by the governments over time, mostly based on the connection between the union's politics and the lawmakers who take their money.. If it were a mom-n-pop store, do you think the government would give a shit unless there was some kind of greasy-palm money connection happening?
I've been in them and I paid my dues for not a whole lot of return. They do nothing for the person and are all about politics. Every meeting was about politics and power, and how to get more. Sticking up for or getting "more money" for the common worker is just their excuse for grabbing more political power. If anything, they made my workplaces even more hostile, without the company even being involved in the games. They continuously "pushed" the workers into believing that everyone was out to get them, and that they should complain about every little issue to the union, thus creating more points where the union would swoop in to "defend" the worker and thus continuing the circle of it's existence. It caused and "fixed" issues at the same time.
Anyway, back to the session musicians..
I'm not saying they aren't worth the price to *someone*, but I just simply couldn't afford someone at that rate, end of story. Then again, I'm not playing in that kind of arena either, so maybe I'm just not accustomed to pay like that.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 15, 2014 12:58:06 GMT -6
I'm no fan of unions either. But these guys provide a service that and level of expertise that many are willing to pay for. See, maybe your job can be shipped to China, but this one can't...
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Post by svart on May 15, 2014 13:07:17 GMT -6
I'm no fan of unions either. But these guys provide a service that and level of expertise that many are willing to pay for. See, maybe your job can be shipped to China, but this one can't... There are websites and agencies that find chinese musicians for hire.. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 15, 2014 13:57:51 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on May 15, 2014 14:04:17 GMT -6
I said they have there problems, but breaking and eliminating them is a fools errand, then the "free" or "not so free" market wins, and you and i will make equal pay to chinese camp workers. Don't think for a second that this isn't EXACTLY where the middle class in America is headed, that is "real world" free market capitalism, i guarantee your children will see it in there lifetime. The idea of taking away peoples freedom to form unions/collective bargaining is utterly absurd, and the farthest thing from "freedom" there is??? wtf?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 15, 2014 15:45:21 GMT -6
I'm no fan of unions either. But these guys provide a service that and level of expertise that many are willing to pay for. See, maybe your job can be shipped to China, but this one can't... There are websites and agencies that find chinese musicians for hire.. And there are companies that use Malaysian children to sew t-shirts...That doesn't make it right. But man, if you've got it down at your place, then go for it...no skin off my back. Just don't complain about the price of session musicians if you aren't going to use them. |
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Post by wiz on May 15, 2014 16:58:31 GMT -6
I used a bass player out of Nashville, on my last album. Lance Martin.... some of you guys might know him. He was polite, efficient, reliable and really inexpensive. Worked out great, nice guy
cheers
Wiz
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