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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 29, 2022 9:22:51 GMT -6
My arranger swears by Pianoteq, and from everything we've worked on I can say it sounds wonderful. I just bought Noire after watching Colt Capparrune's review on it. It looked and sounded really nice. So, I'm looking forward to diving into that. Funny enough I picked up Waves Grand Rhapsody Piano a few years ago for like $20, and it has seriously served me well. It just sounds like a real piano to me. It maybe the more classical style music I'm doing, but its worth a look. It's been my go to for theatrical piano/vocal recoridngs. I used it on the EP for the musical "Voyages" which I co starred in and produced/engineered the EP. schaeburmusic.wixsite.com/voyages/mediaAlso used it on this "Live in Studio" performance of "Glitter and Be Gay" performed by Lauren Gobes. I’m interested in that pianoteq. Someone used it on a session not long ago - and I was like damn dude what piano is that? He said it was pianoteq. Said you could use some parameter that takes it slightly out of tune with itself to make it more realistic sounding. |
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Post by bradd on Nov 29, 2022 12:26:40 GMT -6
Yes, Pianoteq has a "condition" slider that goes from mint to hasn't been tuned since 1805. Moving it about 20% away from the mint end gives the piano the perfect character in my opinion.
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Post by M57 on Nov 29, 2022 13:07:36 GMT -6
First, let's get one thing out of the way. There's NOTHING like the real thing. Playing a VI is nowhere near as satisfying as playing a physical piano. That said, recording a real piano is a PITA. To get anywhere near the balance that you get with a virtual piano, you need to have perfect conditions, (space, mic placement, etc). I have tuned, miced, and recorded my own baby grand for years now and used it exclusively on my music. No VI's. But that's probably going to change. For one, I'm never really happy with the sound I've gotten. I've tried LDCs, SDCs, all kinds of positioning, etc, and there are always phase and coloration issues. When I record a solo piano or piano in a very sparse arrangement, I may continue to use the real thing because VIs are just too easy to spot when they are exposed, but otherwise, I think VI's are the way to go. One huge advantage is that you can EDIT! Also, if it's not sitting in the mix well, you can just switch out pianos, or change any number of parameters, like the "condition" like Brad said above, that defines the sound of the thing.
I'm currently giving Pianoteq8 a test drive. A friend is temporarily sharing one of his licensees with me. Here are my initial thoughts.
In addition to a long list of pianos, tunings and such, pianoteq lets you modify just about anything you can think of, from the hardness of the hammer felts and various mechanical noises, to the soundboard material and the length of the strings. It also includes a number of other acoustic keyboard instruments, and they even threw in a nice classical guitar that sounds surprisingly good.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't use samples, rather the sounds are modeled, so the size of the program is MUCH smaller because there are no samples. I A/B'd all of pianoteq's pianos against the Logic stock piano, which I use all the time when working on ideas, and I have to say that while the range of sound of Pianoteq's pianos is amazing, none of them are any better sounding to my ear than the stock Logic piano. Don't get me wrong, many of them are going to be more appropriate and do a better job ..depending on the music, but the quality, depth, and overall realism is no better. I'm not saying this in an effort to pan the product, but I'm pretty sure that nobody has yet to invent a virtual piano that can pass the smell test in a solo setting. Bottom line: The pianos are very good sounding, and if you can't find or tweak one of its pianos to work in your mixes, then ..ummm.. you probably shouldn't have a piano there in the first place, and I'm seriously thinking of buying it for myself.
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Post by ab101 on Nov 29, 2022 13:41:33 GMT -6
First, let's get one thing out of the way. There's NOTHING like the real thing. Playing a VI is nowhere near as satisfying as playing a physical piano. That said, recording a real piano is a PITA. To get anywhere near the balance that you get with a virtual piano, you need to have perfect conditions, (space, mic placement, etc). I have tuned, miced, and recorded my own baby grand for years now and used it exclusively on my music. No VI's. But that's probably going to change. For one, I'm never really happy with the sound I've gotten. I've tried LDCs, SDCs, all kinds of positioning, etc, and there are always phase and coloration issues. When I record a solo piano or piano in a very sparse arrangement, I may continue to use the real thing because VIs are just too easy to spot when they are exposed, but otherwise, I think VI's are the way to go. One huge advantage is that you can EDIT! Also, if it's not sitting in the mix well, you can just switch out pianos, or change any number of parameters, like the "condition" like Brad said above, that defines the sound of the thing. I'm currently giving Pianoteq8 a test drive. A friend is temporarily sharing one of his licensees with me. Here are my initial thoughts. In addition to a long list of pianos, tunings and such, pianoteq lets you modify just about anything you can think of, from the hardness of the hammer felts and various mechanical noises, to the soundboard material and the length of the strings. It also includes a number of other acoustic keyboard instruments, and they even threw in a nice classical guitar that sounds surprisingly good. I'm pretty sure it doesn't use samples, rather the sounds are modeled, so the size of the program is MUCH smaller because there are no samples. I A/B'd all of pianoteq's pianos against the Logic stock piano, which I use all the time when working on ideas, and I have to say that while the range of sound of Pianoteq's pianos is amazing, none of them are any better sounding to my ear than the stock Logic piano. Don't get me wrong, many of them are going to be more appropriate and do a better job ..depending on the music, but the quality, depth, and overall realism is no better. I'm not saying this in an effort to pan the product, but I'm pretty sure that nobody has yet to invent a virtual piano that can pass the smell test in a solo setting. Bottom line: The pianos are very good sounding, and if you can't find or tweak one of its pianos to work in your mixes, then ..ummm.. you probably shouldn't have a piano there in the first place, and I'm seriously thinking of buying it for myself. I hear you. I have been playing piano since 8 years old. And I recorded my grand piano for many years. But I can tell when it was just tuned and two days out it is not the same. And then there are piano noises, voicing (hammer condition), inability to edit like sofware, and then the increasingly good VI's that are out there. All this added together made it so I have a grand piano that I play, but only VI's for actual recording. After playing around with the VSL Steinway, I have finally found some ways to make it sound great. And by the way, there are great piano like midi controllers (so to speak) for VI pianos now. Some even have wood hammers, etc. So, the times they are a changin'. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 29, 2022 13:43:08 GMT -6
Yes, Pianoteq has a "condition" slider that goes from mint to hasn't been tuned since 1805. Moving it about 20% away from the mint end gives the piano the perfect character in my opinion. Would you think the most simple version is all I would need? |
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Post by M57 on Nov 29, 2022 14:33:19 GMT -6
I have finally found some ways to make it sound great. And by the way, there are great piano like midi controllers (so to speak) for VI pianos now. Some even have wood hammers, etc. So, the times they are a changin'. I was going to start a thread asking about controllers. I've been using an M-Audio 61, which has been just fine for general synth work, but I'll be needing the full 88 and a good action. I don't think a mess of extra features is all that important, I can still use the plastic controller for pitch bend etc. ..and what tricks do you use? |
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Post by aremos on Nov 29, 2022 15:01:47 GMT -6
I've auditioned & work with many. Own Ivory Grands, Ravenscroft, Garritan CFX, AIR Mini Grand (comes with PT), & Arturia Piano (comes with the Bundle).
The Garritan CFX is up there with the VSL (which is the STANDARD) CFX & costs less than half.
Just bought the Sampletekk WS MkII for $20. (They're having a 90% BF sale) & it sounds wonderful!
But would have to say that the VSL line-up of Grands are the Ne Plus Ultra of Piano VSTs.
(Pianoteq must have taken a quantum leap as their modeling was "not there yet" 3 years ago.)
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 29, 2022 15:03:36 GMT -6
Damn...demoing Pianoteq now. That "condition" parameter is freaking awesome. With as much as I use piano, I could totally get away with what I've got. I actually think the Ravel LT in Luna sounds absolutely great - I like it better than Ravel. And obviously nothing wrong with Keyscape. But I LOVE being able to detune it with a slider - it adds such a touch of realism.
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Post by ab101 on Nov 29, 2022 15:05:01 GMT -6
I was going to start a thread asking about controllers. I've been using an M-Audio 61, which has been just fine for general synth work, but I'll be needing the full 88 and a good action. I don't think a mess of extra features is all that important, I can still use the plastic controller for pitch bend etc. ..and what tricks do you use? I have been happy with the Roland RD2000 with semi-wood keys - some sort of hybrid key. I can get the real workout on my acoustic grand and the Roland RD2000 is close enough and also has some good sounds in it. However, if I had it to start over, I would go with the Kawai MP11se which is getting even closer to a real acoustic grand action and with wooden keys. |
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Post by tkaitkai on Nov 29, 2022 15:09:55 GMT -6
It's definitely a challenge to get realistic piano VIs. In my experience, some VIs just don't sound right for certain parts, no matter how expensive/highly-regarded they may be. Definitely sucks when you've spent hundreds on a 40GB library that's supposed to be the most meticulously-sampled VI ever, but it is what it is.
My solution is basically having a TON of oddball piano VIs. Discovering Pianobook was huge for me — literally dozens of pianos that are all free & sound awesome. I have probably 50 of those alongside various other free/paid options. When one doesn't work, I can almost always find another that will.
Another thing is velocity. With some VIs, you adjust the velocity and it's almost like you have a whole new instrument. I usually think softer velocities sound better — go too high and it sounds like you're banging the keys with your fists. Even if you play the parts as you normally would on a MIDI keyboard, try turning the velocity down for all notes by 15 - 25%.
In general, here are some of my favorites (not all from Pianobook, obviously):
lofiAudio - The Hoffmann Felt Instruments - Wolno Tim Didgiunaitis - English Classic
NI - Una Corda & Noire
Tatak - Felt Piano Simple Sam - Vintage Upright & Signature Grand Westwood - Upright Felt
Wavesfactory - The Tack
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Piano VST
Nov 29, 2022 15:19:53 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Nov 29, 2022 15:19:53 GMT -6
Now I’ve got to decide whether I really need to spend $104 to have a piano that I’ll probably reach for twice in a year…but right when I’m really need it is when I won’t have it.
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Post by bradd on Nov 29, 2022 15:28:54 GMT -6
Yes, Pianoteq has a "condition" slider that goes from mint to hasn't been tuned since 1805. Moving it about 20% away from the mint end gives the piano the perfect character in my opinion. Would you think the most simple version is all I would need? I'd have to study the differences between the versions, but I know that Pro is completely overkill. I have it and use about 1% of its features. Check out the differences between Stage and Standard and pick which one looks best. You probably can't go wrong either way. |
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 29, 2022 16:34:06 GMT -6
I was going to start a thread asking about controllers. I've been using an M-Audio 61, which has been just fine for general synth work, but I'll be needing the full 88 and a good action. I don't think a mess of extra features is all that important, I can still use the plastic controller for pitch bend etc. ..and what tricks do you use? I have been happy with the Roland RD2000 with semi-wood keys - some sort of hybrid key. I can get the real workout on my acoustic grand and the Roland RD2000 is close enough and also has some good sounds in it. However, if I had it to start over, I would go with the Kawai MP11se which is getting even closer to a real acoustic grand action and with wooden keys. I have an MP11SE and it’s ridiculously good. I don’t prefer it’s built in sounds, but it feels incredible. |
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Post by ab101 on Nov 29, 2022 17:46:59 GMT -6
Now I’ve got to decide whether I really need to spend $104 to have a piano that I’ll probably reach for twice in a year…but right when I’m really need it is when I won’t have it. Here are some free ones. I have not tried them: keyboardkraze.com/best-free-piano-vsts/ |
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Post by the other mark williams on Nov 29, 2022 18:44:47 GMT -6
Now I’ve got to decide whether I really need to spend $104 to have a piano that I’ll probably reach for twice in a year…but right when I’m really need it is when I won’t have it. i really dig Pianoteq - especially since v7. I think I bought in back at v2 in like 2008 or something. I always felt it lacked something in the attack, and I didn’t buy updates for versions 5 or 6, then when I tried v7 last year, I was really impressed with how far they’ve come. They seem to have solved the metallic attack that plagued early versions. It may be the most “playable” piano VI out there in terms of its responsiveness. No samples to stream makes it quick with very little latency. Anyway, I’ve got the “Standard” edition and find it to have plenty of tweakability. Never tried the Stage edition. Check out the Yamaha U3 model if you haven’t yet, John. Age the piano to about 1/4 or 1/3 to the right, and it’s a thing of beauty. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 29, 2022 19:31:09 GMT -6
Now I’ve got to decide whether I really need to spend $104 to have a piano that I’ll probably reach for twice in a year…but right when I’m really need it is when I won’t have it. i really dig Pianoteq - especially since v7. I think I bought in back at v2 in like 2008 or something. I always felt it lacked something in the attack, and I didn’t buy updates for versions 5 or 6, then when I tried v7 last year, I was really impressed with how far they’ve come. They seem to have solved the metallic attack that plagued early versions. It may be the most “playable” piano VI out there in terms of its responsiveness. No samples to stream makes it quick with very little latency. Anyway, I’ve got the “Standard” edition and find it to have plenty of tweakability. Never tried the Stage edition. Check out the Yamaha U3 model if you haven’t yet, John. Age the piano to about 1/4 or 1/3 to the right, and it’s a thing of beauty. Yeah it’s really good. I demo’d 8. Tried some of the other electric pianos and those didn’t really cut the mustard. I might be convinced just because of the age slider. So cool and makes it so much more realistic. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Nov 29, 2022 20:46:50 GMT -6
i really dig Pianoteq - especially since v7. I think I bought in back at v2 in like 2008 or something. I always felt it lacked something in the attack, and I didn’t buy updates for versions 5 or 6, then when I tried v7 last year, I was really impressed with how far they’ve come. They seem to have solved the metallic attack that plagued early versions. It may be the most “playable” piano VI out there in terms of its responsiveness. No samples to stream makes it quick with very little latency. Anyway, I’ve got the “Standard” edition and find it to have plenty of tweakability. Never tried the Stage edition. Check out the Yamaha U3 model if you haven’t yet, John. Age the piano to about 1/4 or 1/3 to the right, and it’s a thing of beauty. Yeah it’s really good. I demo’d 8. Tried some of the other electric pianos and those didn’t really cut the mustard. I might be convinced just because of the age slider. So cool and makes it so much more realistic. I just downloaded v.8 - somehow I must've qualified for a free upgrade - not sure how, but I'll certainly take it.
FWIW, I've gotten some really good electric pianos out of Pianoteq in the past, as in, rivaling some of the better sample sets. It takes some tweaking, but no more than a few minutes.
I don't tend to like the presets all that much (and I always turn off the built-in limiter), but I'm telling you, open up the Mic section, move the mics around the "room," maybe even switch out a couple of mics for other mics, and you can get some very, very cool stuff.
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Piano VST
Nov 29, 2022 21:14:24 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indiehouse on Nov 29, 2022 21:14:24 GMT -6
Dag, I thought their sale was on till the 29th. Was gonna pick up U4.
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Piano VST
Nov 30, 2022 8:38:59 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Nov 30, 2022 8:38:59 GMT -6
Well shit. Missed the sale. That solves that.
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Post by bossanova on Jan 17, 2023 11:43:08 GMT -6
I’m doing some tracking with PianoTeq 6 right now. I bought it a few years ago but it was out of rotation for a couple years, so I’m able to listen to it now with fresh ears.
There’s an uncanny valley thing going on when PianoTeq isn’t somewhat enveloped in the mix (using Steinway D). To a very reasonable degrees it “sounds” like piano, but there’s that not quite real modeled quality that I can’t put my finger on.
I’ve had great results with deep sampled Electric Pianos, so I’m curious to see how going back to a sampled acoustic will hold up in comparison.
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Post by aremos on Jan 17, 2023 13:01:33 GMT -6
I’m doing some tracking with PianoTeq 6 right now. I bought it a few years ago but it was out of rotation for a couple years, so I’m able to listen to it now with fresh ears. There’s an uncanny valley thing going on when PianoTeq isn’t somewhat enveloped in the mix (using Steinway D). To a very reasonable degrees it “sounds” like piano, but there’s that not quite real modeled quality that I can’t put my finger on. I’ve had great results with deep sampled Electric Pianos, so I’m curious to see how going back to a sampled acoustic will hold up in comparison. Supposedly the latest version of Pianoteq is the best but not sure what version it is & haven't heard it. As I've stated before, the sampled VSL line of pianos (Synchron) & the Garritan CFX are the best I've heard & used.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 17, 2023 14:27:20 GMT -6
I’m doing some tracking with PianoTeq 6 right now. I bought it a few years ago but it was out of rotation for a couple years, so I’m able to listen to it now with fresh ears. There’s an uncanny valley thing going on when PianoTeq isn’t somewhat enveloped in the mix (using Steinway D). To a very reasonable degrees it “sounds” like piano, but there’s that not quite real modeled quality that I can’t put my finger on. I’ve had great results with deep sampled Electric Pianos, so I’m curious to see how going back to a sampled acoustic will hold up in comparison. Supposedly the latest version of Pianoteq is the best but not sure what version it is & haven't heard it. As I've stated before, the sampled VSL line of pianos (Synchron) & the Garritan CFX are the best I've heard & used.
I noticed a huge jump in quality from v.5 to v.7. I don't know that I've ever heard v.6 to compare. I'm certainly not arguing that it's the end-all, be-all, but I'm telling you, the secret is to turn the limiter off, then click the "microphone" settings and mess around in there with positioning and microphone types. It makes an enormous difference. |
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Post by tackhouse on Jan 17, 2023 21:02:04 GMT -6
Yeah, the newest Painoteq release is outstanding. Moving the microphones around, downgrading the condition of the piano can yield very convincing results.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 18, 2023 8:41:24 GMT -6
Personally, I'm not convinced it reminds me of my Roland TD-50x (also a modelled instrument)
The playability is superb, the tactile feedback is brilliant, it interprets playing techniques really well.
It's just the sound - modelled instruments have this sythyness and almost plastic vail to the sound.
The Roland is great for tracking and then I trigger samples (SD3) which sound real because they are recordings of real drums.
I'm wondering if playing the pianoteq for a great feel and then triggering a sample library might be a good way to make the most
of it's excellent playability.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 18, 2023 9:03:54 GMT -6
Yeah, the newest Painoteq release is outstanding. Moving the microphones around, downgrading the condition of the piano can yield very convincing results. I love it. Degrading piano condition slightly is a key. |
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