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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 17, 2021 13:36:57 GMT -6
Well, your amphion seas drivers aren’t going to disappear in ye night either !
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 17, 2021 13:41:28 GMT -6
Well, your amphion seas drivers aren’t going to disappear in ye night either ! This where it can get really really tricky, you have to know for sure that the drivers don’t have some small “ built to order “ revisions. Some don’t seam like a big deal till you replace them with the standard version and they sound very different because those revisions screw up the X over.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 17, 2021 13:45:46 GMT -6
I understand the concern, but my main concern wouldn’t be DSP updates, unless they are going to change the entire voicing and it’s not like your going to hook them up to the web so security is a non issue. My main concern would be the same as with any new speaker manufacturer; will I be able to get custom / semi custom drivers ? Example try getting Cabase Tweeters for KRK V88’s! Unless the numbers are huge none of the Chinese OEMs care to clone. That's a plus for the Atomics. I believe they are using off the shelf drivers. Though they lack detail compared to my One15's, they are certainly more full range and voiced completely differently. Over time you might find the very different voices far more useful than the ATC’s. I know I love having world class speakers of very different perspectives at hand. Just don’t ask me which are best or which ones I wouldn’t give up. For me it’s just like using different mics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2021 13:49:38 GMT -6
Well, your amphion seas drivers aren’t going to disappear in ye night either ! This where it can get really really tricky, you have to know for sure that the drivers don’t have some small “ built to order “ revisions. Some don’t seam like a big deal till you replace them with the standard version and they sound very different because those revisions screw up the X over. Proacs the most notorious. They modify the drivers.
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Post by indrasnet on Dec 17, 2021 13:58:33 GMT -6
I may be in the minority but I was on 50s for a while and I never got the translation I wanted. The ATCs had me chasing my tail in micro details and the final product never pleased me. I enjoyed the mid driver a lot but anything below soffit mounted 110s sound shy in the low frequencies. This being said I have heard a recent Wes Lanchot room with 150s that was killer. I still think the Dutch & Dutch kill the ATCs in all but the most purpose built rooms. Yeah, I understand. These are the issues I was referring to in my previous post about the ATC learning curve. When I first started working on the 50's, the transients and resolution presented overwhelmed me with information to the point of feeling lost. The bass also confused me as it is so fast and of low distortion that I really had to learn how to listen to it and rely on references (and my SPL meter). REW shows healthy bass down to 20Hz on my 50's but they'll never punch you in the chest. I actually think they're great for electronic and hiphop because as soon as you get that low end sounding present, full, and balanced on the 50's, it's going to slam on subs. They also reveal texture of bass guitar and synth bass parts very clearly. They're prob not euphonic enough if you're looking for a composing or client wowing setup. That said, going through music of the last several decades is fascinating, they reveal distortion like no other monitor I've heard and they can be completely unflattering to some otherwise great music. But when the mix is right... For my workflow, I spend a lot of time on a mono mixcube and rely on that for fader work and initial compression settings. I find the 50s great for EQ work and general mix cohesion/energy. The way the mid domes present vocals for analysis is amazing. The sweetspot is massive, though I have noticed that getting a handle on the depth of mix elements is not as solid as the current DSP monitor offerings in similar price range. That may just be my room though. I really want to get back on a pair of ATC’s. The Amphion One15’s are pretty great, though. More detailed than the Atomic SixTens. I’m just wary of DSP based monitors, especially with something like the D&D. Lots of $$, and if that company folds, who is going to update the software for the ever marching progress of technology? I considered the D&D, Kii, and 8351/61 but this is why I went with ATC. I want to be able to choose my DAC for monitoring. Also, not sure about the other ATCs but with the 50-150 you can still find replacement parts and/or bring a 30 year old monitor up to current spec because the cab dimensions and amp form stay the same and the drivers are made in house.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 17, 2021 14:03:07 GMT -6
You can send speakers to atc for refurb too.
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Post by indrasnet on Dec 17, 2021 14:05:04 GMT -6
You can send speakers to atc for refurb too. Yup, though if you're in the US you have to use Transaudio in Vegas, as they have an agreement to do all the US service for ATC.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 17, 2021 14:06:47 GMT -6
This where it can get really really tricky, you have to know for sure that the drivers don’t have some small “ built to order “ revisions. Some don’t seam like a big deal till you replace them with the standard version and they sound very different because those revisions screw up the X over. Proacs the most notorious. They modify the drivers. Actually the one who I know truly modded drivers in house was Meyer before they started building drivers in house. They would custom drill/ mill JBL compression drivers and add ferro fluid. Most of the ProAc stuff is custom builds ( they order the drivers with the mods they want and Seas, etc have internal part numbers for these builds). The problem is often these drivers still have the part number of the stock build on them ( Quested just puts stickers with there part # over the manufacturers label). The other thing is this, many manufacturers of speaker systems have their own QC standards and reject a ton of drivers. Ironically for Morrel tweeters Quested and another builder had very different standards for the same driver. So I would get a bunch of rejects and go through them and find some that measure to the Quested standards. Some times simply changing the motor / diaphragm combo would get me there.
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 17, 2021 14:42:22 GMT -6
You can send speakers to atc for refurb too. One thing that influenced me towards ATC, beyond their legendry performance, was my experience with Sennheiser and my pair of K&H 0300's. When the amp failed on my left 0300 I called Sennheiser to arrange a repair and they told me they no longer repaired them and refused to release the schematic to my tech (which would be essential for the reapir to happen) and to basically (I paraphrase) "throw them in the nearest skip and buy a new pair of 0310's !! Er I don't think so. Once bitten and all that. So I called ATC and asked them what would happen in the same situation and they said, oh no problem, we'll happily repair and do sometimes repair monitors/drivers produced by us from back in the 70's !! That's what I call product support. ATC are imho literally a different class of engineering. I'm sure there are other monitor manufacturers who offer the ATC ethic and approach to after sales service.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 17, 2021 15:15:12 GMT -6
You can send speakers to atc for refurb too. One thing that influenced me towards ATC, beyond their legendry performance, was my experience with Sennheiser and my pair of K&H 0300's. When the amp failed on my left 0300 I called Sennheiser to arrange a repair and they told me they no longer repaired them and refused to release the schematic to my tech (which would be essential for the reapir to happen) and to basically (I paraphrase) "throw them in the nearest skip and buy a new pair of 0310's !! Er I don't think so. Once bitten and all that. So I called ATC and asked them what would happen in the same situation and they said, oh no problem, we'll happily repair and do sometimes repair monitors/drivers produced by us from back in the 70's !! That's what I call product support. ATC are imho literally a different class of engineering. I'm sure there are other monitor manufacturers who offer the ATC ethic and approach to after sales service. A lot of this is the result of ATC building in house, and really not that many changes over the years. I feel the pain but I’m also the guy who has 6 tweeter diaphragms, 2 motors 3 mid Diaphragms 1 complete mid. and 2 woofer recone kits plus 2 Volt woofer frames. Ironically the only thing I have needed to replace on the Questeds since getting them is 2 crushed domes! I know 99.999% of us don’t know nor have the resources to know what’s in their speakers and how to find them, but as tools of the trade hording back up drivers is a must. God I miss the days when I could simply walk down to Madisound and grab a driver and hear all the latest speaker related news, ironically they were half way between FCS and Audio Independence ( USA Turbosound/ Quested at the time and home of Satchmo one of my all time favorite Golden retrievers).
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 17, 2021 16:44:20 GMT -6
One thing that influenced me towards ATC, beyond their legendry performance, was my experience with Sennheiser and my pair of K&H 0300's. When the amp failed on my left 0300 I called Sennheiser to arrange a repair and they told me they no longer repaired them and refused to release the schematic to my tech (which would be essential for the reapir to happen) and to basically (I paraphrase) "throw them in the nearest skip and buy a new pair of 0310's !! Er I don't think so. Once bitten and all that. So I called ATC and asked them what would happen in the same situation and they said, oh no problem, we'll happily repair and do sometimes repair monitors/drivers produced by us from back in the 70's !! That's what I call product support. ATC are imho literally a different class of engineering. I'm sure there are other monitor manufacturers who offer the ATC ethic and approach to after sales service. A lot of this is the result of ATC building in house, and really not that many changes over the years. I feel the pain but I’m also the guy who has 6 tweeter diaphragms, 2 motors 3 mid Diaphragms 1 complete mid. and 2 woofer recone kits plus 2 Volt woofer frames. Ironically the only thing I have needed to replace on the Questeds since getting them is 2 crushed domes! I know 99.999% of us don’t know nor have the resources to know what’s in their speakers and how to find them, but as tools of the trade hording back up drivers is a must. God I miss the days when I could simply walk down to Madisound and grab a driver and hear all the latest speaker related news, ironically they were half way between FCS and Audio Independence ( USA Turbosound/ Quested at the time and home of Satchmo one of my all time favorite Golden retrievers). I know you’re a big Quested guy. What’s your take on the V2108?
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 17, 2021 16:45:08 GMT -6
I think with atc, you are buying more than speakers.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 17, 2021 18:15:05 GMT -6
I think with atc, you are buying more than speakers. You talking ‘bout paying for the name?
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 17, 2021 19:33:59 GMT -6
No, the quality of the engineering and excellent long after sale service: it was a compliment .
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 17, 2021 22:22:07 GMT -6
A lot of this is the result of ATC building in house, and really not that many changes over the years. I feel the pain but I’m also the guy who has 6 tweeter diaphragms, 2 motors 3 mid Diaphragms 1 complete mid. and 2 woofer recone kits plus 2 Volt woofer frames. Ironically the only thing I have needed to replace on the Questeds since getting them is 2 crushed domes! I know 99.999% of us don’t know nor have the resources to know what’s in their speakers and how to find them, but as tools of the trade hording back up drivers is a must. God I miss the days when I could simply walk down to Madisound and grab a driver and hear all the latest speaker related news, ironically they were half way between FCS and Audio Independence ( USA Turbosound/ Quested at the time and home of Satchmo one of my all time favorite Golden retrievers). I know you’re a big Quested guy. What’s your take on the V2108? I prefer the 108 but the 2108 goes lower, you can probably eek out 35hz. Some might call them “dark” because of a slight bass rise between 250-500 and the fact that the Morell tweeter isn’t aggressive it’s fans praise how it’s not fatiguing to listen to for hours, it’s really great for a near field. While the morell isn’t as fast as say the Focal Be nor as bright it has plenty of detail. It’s sort of the anti ns10. What I don’t quite like; well this speaker was designed for Hans Zimmer who was willing to write the check for a bunch of 108s that went lower. I can see it working awesome in a instrumental only setting but I always hear of breakup in the voice range when you really push the LF. If I didn’t have the 3 way version I probably would not even notice but I do. These things were conceived in the era of large consoles, position wise this is important don’t even think of these if you have to put them right in your face, these can be used as a mid field the cabinets are big and heavy so good stands are a must. In the world of Quested VS ATC remember the original Quested mains used ATC & Audax just like ATC, it was only when ATC made the move from being a PA OEM to a speaker System builder. Roger simply started using Volt for his LF and Mids in his custom mains, Volt like ATC started making drivers for Martin, Turbosound, EAWand other top dollar live rigs. Keep in mind consistent performance from sample to sample is far more important in a large scale PA where you need to have the drivers sum and minimize comb filtering. The MC2 amps are probably the only part of Quested that are at all unconventional, but other than ATC the best amp in any active system. You also have to love the fact that Roger was the first to ever buy his company back from Harmon after they bought Quested as part of AKG. I think if you can live with the limited LF or add great stereo subs the ATC 20 and 25 are better speakers, it’s all about the mids and low distortion, but if you need a near field that can go low with no DSP the 2108 is really hard to beat while also bring you the lowest distortion other than ATC.
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Post by yewtreemagic on Dec 18, 2021 17:36:43 GMT -6
That's a plus for the Atomics. I believe they are using off the shelf drivers. Though they lack detail compared to my One15's, they are certainly more full range and voiced completely differently. I once blew a driver on one of my tiny ATC SCM 10 Pro's (faulty amp), and at the time lived close to the ATC Factory in Stroud UK, so took them both there for repair. They retained frequency response plots for all their drivers by serial number, so they could fit another driver to the loudspeaker that had got a burnt out voice coil and then return them to me once again as a closely matched pair (I was impressed!). Off the shelf drivers may well not be so closely matched. Just a thought.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 18, 2021 18:34:01 GMT -6
That's a plus for the Atomics. I believe they are using off the shelf drivers. Though they lack detail compared to my One15's, they are certainly more full range and voiced completely differently. I once blew a driver on one of my tiny ATC SCM 10 Pro's (faulty amp), and at the time lived close to the ATC Factory in Stroud UK, so took them both there for repair. They retained frequency response plots for all their drivers by serial number, so they could fit another driver to the loudspeaker that had got a burnt out voice coil and then return them to me once again as a closely matched pair (I was impressed!). Off the shelf drivers may well not be so closely matched. Just a thought. That sounds like the ATC I know ! I can’t say my Quested or even Genelec service has been any different but when you consider I had 2 different Quested US distributors and the Genelec rep and former US sales mgr at my wedding reception I would be suprised if I didn’t get that kind of service. Off the shelf driver matching is such a mixed bag, depending on manufacturer or where the seller is getting their drivers ( what do you think happens to all those drivers that don’t meet a builders spec?). It’s funny that the manufacturer with the closest tolerances of anybody keeps records for matching.
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Post by kyamcalvert on Dec 19, 2021 1:59:26 GMT -6
That's a plus for the Atomics. I believe they are using off the shelf drivers. Though they lack detail compared to my One15's, they are certainly more full range and voiced completely differently. I once blew a driver on one of my tiny ATC SCM 10 Pro's (faulty amp), and at the time lived close to the ATC Factory in Stroud UK, so took them both there for repair. They retained frequency response plots for all their drivers by serial number, so they could fit another driver to the loudspeaker that had got a burnt out voice coil and then return them to me once again as a closely matched pair (I was impressed!). Off the shelf drivers may well not be so closely matched. Just a thought. Wow. That's what I call customer support.
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hellp
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Post by hellp on Jan 28, 2022 2:35:29 GMT -6
What the best price/performance monitors out there right now? Are those ones any good primesound.org/best-studio-monitors-under-500/And if I want to go sit back on the couch and listen, how big do they need to be (near and mid field capable)?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 28, 2022 3:15:49 GMT -6
How big is your room ?
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Post by drastic on Feb 25, 2022 11:26:28 GMT -6
I've had a pair of SCM12 Pro here for about 6 months. Been powering them with a cheaper Crown amp while I looked for something better. I snagged a Lexicon NT 212 off eBay a few days ago and just hooked it up.... wowza what a difference! They came to life. I already liked them, but crazy improvement. Stoked!
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Post by bgrotto on Feb 25, 2022 11:54:27 GMT -6
We have a few ATCs at Berklee...they sounds really, really great.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 25, 2022 12:16:28 GMT -6
I've had a pair of SCM12 Pro here for about 6 months. Been powering them with a cheaper Crown amp while I looked for something better. I snagged a Lexicon NT 212 off eBay a few days ago and just hooked it up.... wowza what a difference! They came to life. I already liked them, but crazy improvement. Stoked! Same Lexicon I have. It's basically a re-branded Bryston 3BST I'm pretty sure.
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Post by drastic on Feb 25, 2022 14:52:45 GMT -6
I've had a pair of SCM12 Pro here for about 6 months. Been powering them with a cheaper Crown amp while I looked for something better. I snagged a Lexicon NT 212 off eBay a few days ago and just hooked it up.... wowza what a difference! They came to life. I already liked them, but crazy improvement. Stoked! Same Lexicon I have. It's basically a re-branded Bryston 3BST I'm pretty sure. Ha yep, before I bought it I had searched around online for info and a few of your mentions popped up. So thanks :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2022 8:20:00 GMT -6
Unfortunately I've just been offered a pair of SCM50's for 9K.. I'd love to take them off their hands but I'm really not sure they would work in a 14.5 X 13 X 8.5 room, I'm not even sure I could physically get them to fit. Can they be mounted horizontally and placed on a desk? I'd probably end up with some nasty reflections no?
Thoughts, opinions?
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