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Post by lpedrum on Nov 16, 2021 22:21:15 GMT -6
Like many folks I mix incorporating guitar pedals by re-amping them or using a Radial EXTC. But for certain pedals, analog delays in particular, I wish I had it in rack format with line ins and outs. How tough would that be to do? Or are there reasons why taking the guts out of a pedal and reconstituting it in a rack would be problematic? I'm talking about solely for the use of mixing, not while tracking guitar. I've built CAPI and Hairball kits, but I don't have the electronic expertise to design and troubleshoot novel products, so I thought I'd ask here.
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Post by jmoose on Nov 17, 2021 14:52:40 GMT -6
When you say rack format with line I/O... are you talking about taking something like an EHX memory man or MXR dynacomp and basically fitting it with +4 balanced I/O ? Maybe a couple other features so things make sense for audio production, like "full wet" on delay boxes instead of the traditional blend?
IMO the first part of it is fairly trivial... redesigning/modding a pedal for +4 balanced "studio world" vs -20 unbalanced "guitar world" isn't all that complicated.
I actually had this same idea many years ago. Even pitched it to several manufacturers whom I personally knew and every one of 'em thought I was crazy and blew me off.
Hit me one day when I was wrapping up a session & saw a fuzz box sitting right next to a 500 series EQ that was out of the rack... Oh wow. These are about the same size..?!!
I talked to an EE guitar player buddy who had just discovered the world of API & Neve schematics and cooked up a prototype on breadboard pretty easily...
Where we hit the wall was taking our hammond box & breadboard experiment... proof of concept and moving it to 500 series format. Out of our realm which is why I ran it past a few people (who shall remain nameless) but were already building & selling pedals & 500 gear on a world stage.
Why 500 series? Boards are about same size so stuffing pedals into that format should be fairly easy. Plus since most stompboxes run on 9 volts and 50-100ma tops there's more then enough juice in any given frame. Plus I figured, you know... cost wise if I can buy a fancy pants pedal like a JHS or Keeley for about $200 why shouldn't they cost about the same in 500 format?
Like I said, everyone thought I was crazy... so yes I live with the mess of patch cables, reamp & DI boxes like everyone else who uses stompboxes in the production world.
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 17, 2021 18:12:44 GMT -6
When you say rack format with line I/O... are you talking about taking something like an EHX memory man or MXR dynacomp and basically fitting it with +4 balanced I/O ? Maybe a couple other features so things make sense for audio production, like "full wet" on delay boxes instead of the traditional blend? IMO the first part of it is fairly trivial... redesigning/modding a pedal for +4 balanced "studio world" vs -20 unbalanced "guitar world" isn't all that complicated. I actually had this same idea many years ago. Even pitched it to several manufacturers whom I personally knew and every one of 'em thought I was crazy and blew me off. Hit me one day when I was wrapping up a session & saw a fuzz box sitting right next to a 500 series EQ that was out of the rack... Oh wow. These are about the same size..?!! I talked to an EE guitar player buddy who had just discovered the world of API & Neve schematics and cooked up a prototype on breadboard pretty easily... Where we hit the wall was taking our hammond box & breadboard experiment... proof of concept and moving it to 500 series format. Out of our realm which is why I ran it past a few people (who shall remain nameless) but were already building & selling pedals & 500 gear on a world stage. Why 500 series? Boards are about same size so stuffing pedals into that format should be fairly easy. Plus since most stompboxes run on 9 volts and 50-100ma tops there's more then enough juice in any given frame. Plus I figured, you know... cost wise if I can buy a fancy pants pedal like a JHS or Keeley for about $200 why shouldn't they cost about the same in 500 format? Like I said, everyone thought I was crazy... so yes I live with the mess of patch cables, reamp & D I boxes like everyone else who uses stompboxes in the production world. Yes, balanced I/O with full wet signal. I love your 500 series idea—especially for pedals that get a lot of use when mixing. However, the reason I was thinking about this is that no company currently makes a stereo analog delay in rack mount. I have an old Ibanez mono rack delay unit and dig those types of sounds. So I’d love a simple stereo delay, say for instance constructed of 2 Boss Waza DM2W pedals allowing for both L and R to be adjusted separately. They have a range of 600 ms and already have the effect out only feature. |
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Post by jmoose on Nov 18, 2021 13:25:10 GMT -6
Well, probably no surprise here but not much rack gear is being made anymore... its all gone plugs or pedals... Strymon... Eventide H9 etc
I'm still several years ahead of you here. One of my 500 plans was a delay but based around a PT2399 rather then a BBD. Same basic concept though & the PT2399 is a really common chip used by everyone for delay boxes. Earthquaker, Catalinbread, JHS etc... its either that or go the cool audio route with their Panasonic MN knockoffs.
Anyway.
Taking something like the Boss DM2... common analog delay box. Probably not hard to work out the level differences and get signal into the circuit...
What gets incredibly difficult to impossible is "stereo" and it depends on what kinda stereo you want. As in what needs to be linked..? If anything?
Getting a pair of BBD devices to run off the same clock would be like breaking the laws of physics.
Decade ago +/- 3dB I was a consultant for Seymour Duncan on their "wedge shaped" pedals. One of which was the deja vu delay. The pedals all had some inherent design flaws which is why they aren't around anymore... but there were several conversations around expanding the capabilities of the delay. I had suggested true stereo and it was basically either impossible or going to be really, really expensive.
Either way true stereo with a pair of clocked BBD was above the pay grade of the designers there, which means there's no hope at all for a hack like myself...
My box? If it could've been worked out would've been a basic mono delay. Go out to about 600ms is the max for those chips before things start to fall apart. Need stereo? Buy two!
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 18, 2021 14:41:17 GMT -6
Well, probably no surprise here but not much rack gear is being made anymore... its all gone plugs or pedals... Strymon... Eventide H9 etc I'm still several years ahead of you here. One of my 500 plans was a delay but based around a PT2399 rather then a BBD. Same basic concept though & the PT2399 is a really common chip used by everyone for delay boxes. Earthquaker, Catalinbread, JHS etc... its either that or go the cool audio route with their Panasonic MN knockoffs. Anyway. Taking something like the Boss DM2... common analog delay box. Probably not hard to work out the level differences and get signal into the circuit... What gets incredibly difficult to impossible is "stereo" and it depends on what kinda stereo you want. As in what needs to be linked..? If anything? Getting a pair of BBD devices to run off the same clock would be like breaking the laws of physics. Decade ago +/- 3dB I was a consultant for Seymour Duncan on their "wedge shaped" pedals. One of which was the deja vu delay. The pedals all had some inherent design flaws which is why they aren't around anymore... but there were several conversations around expanding the capabilities of the delay. I had suggested true stereo and it was basically either impossible or going to be really, really expensive. Either way true stereo with a pair of clocked BBD was above the pay grade of the designers there, which means there's no hope at all for a hack like myself... My box? If it could've been worked out would've been a basic mono delay. Go out to about 600ms is the max for those chips before things start to fall apart. Need stereo? Buy two! Thanks much for brainstorming on this--much appreciated! Re stereo, I have two 500 series Radial Tank Drivers that I set up left/right for stereo of various tanks. Is that true stereo? I'm not sure, but it sounds like stereo and I love it. I may end up buying a second Radial EXTC and try running two delay pedals left and right and see what results. Honestly I don't think I care about clocking pure stereo and all that--part of the fun would be just knob tweaking till it sound cool! Malekko makes a reasonable priced analog delay too that includes modulation (but not completely wet signal.) I've mentioned the idea of a stereo analog delay to a couple of boutique companies including AudioScape here on RGO, but the idea doesn't seem to resonate. Meanwhile their 2K stereo spring delay sold out in a day. I think there's a market if the price were right--either rack or double 500. I regret not jumping on the 500 series Moog delays when first released. Now they're stupid money. |
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Post by anders on Nov 18, 2021 16:06:07 GMT -6
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Post by jmoose on Nov 19, 2021 14:15:55 GMT -6
I think there's a market if the price were right--either rack or double 500. I regret not jumping on the 500 series Moog delays when first released. Now they're stupid money. There's totally a market and "instant buy" if the price is right... and in 500 who doesn't have an empty slot they could fill with something fun & useful. Nobody blinks at spending $200-250 on a stompbox delay or flanger? Why not move that to a 500 module? Wasn't aware of the Moog 500 delays... JHS also made a series of 500 modules that IMO were way, way overpriced compared to the standard pedals. Like a $400 version of a $150 distortion box. FWIW aside from Radial reamp boxes I use all kinds of other things to feed pedals & make use of DI inputs on preamps to get 'em back to line level. My thought is that if I'm doing something stupid like pumping vocals out to a whammy pedal then I'm probably not too concerned about fidelity... |
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 19, 2021 15:45:57 GMT -6
When you say rack format with line I/O... are you talking about taking something like an EHX memory man or MXR dynacomp and basically fitting it with +4 balanced I/O ? Maybe a couple other features so things make sense for audio production, like "full wet" on delay boxes instead of the traditional blend? IMO the first part of it is fairly trivial... redesigning/modding a pedal for +4 balanced "studio world" vs -20 unbalanced "guitar world" isn't all that complicated. I actually had this same idea many years ago. Even pitched it to several manufacturers whom I personally knew and every one of 'em thought I was crazy and blew me off. Hit me one day when I was wrapping up a session & saw a fuzz box sitting right next to a 500 series EQ that was out of the rack... Oh wow. These are about the same size..?!! I talked to an EE guitar player buddy who had just discovered the world of API & Neve schematics and cooked up a prototype on breadboard pretty easily... Where we hit the wall was taking our hammond box & breadboard experiment... proof of concept and moving it to 500 series format. Out of our realm which is why I ran it past a few people (who shall remain nameless) but were already building & selling pedals & 500 gear on a world stage. Why 500 series? Boards are about same size so stuffing pedals into that format should be fairly easy. Plus since most stompboxes run on 9 volts and 50-100ma tops there's more then enough juice in any given frame. Plus I figured, you know... cost wise if I can buy a fancy pants pedal like a JHS or Keeley for about $200 why shouldn't they cost about the same in 500 format? Like I said, everyone thought I was crazy... so yes I live with the mess of patch cables, reamp & D I boxes like everyone else who uses stompboxes in the production world. Yes, balanced I/O with full wet signal. I love your 500 series idea—especially for pedals that get a lot of use when mixing. However, the reason I was thinking about this is that no company currently makes a stereo analog delay in rack mount. I have an old Ibanez mono rack delay unit and dig those types of sounds. So I’d love a simple stereo delay, say for instance constructed of 2 Boss Waza DM2W pedals allowing for both L and R to be adjusted separately. They have a range of 600 ms and already have the effect out only feature. the emphasized portion is not true, although the box is more elaborate and costs around 2 grand. I forget the name of the company, but they're the one that sells direct and sends me email notices twice a week - I'm sure some of you know who. It's a brand new product, BTW. |
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 19, 2021 16:44:43 GMT -6
Yes, balanced I/O with full wet signal. I love your 500 series idea—especially for pedals that get a lot of use when mixing. However, the reason I was thinking about this is that no company currently makes a stereo analog delay in rack mount. I have an old Ibanez mono rack delay unit and dig those types of sounds. So I’d love a simple stereo delay, say for instance constructed of 2 Boss Waza DM2W pedals allowing for both L and R to be adjusted separately. They have a range of 600 ms and already have the effect out only feature. the emphasized portion is not true, although the box is more elaborate and costs around 2 grand. I forget the name of the company, but they're the one that sells direct and sends me email notices twice a week - I'm sure some of you know who. It's a brand new product, BTW. Are you sure you don't mean the AudioScape stereo reverb tank John? I'm not aware of any company making a stereo analog rack delay, but if they exist I'd definitely check it out. |
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Post by james7800 on Nov 20, 2021 19:17:51 GMT -6
I'd love to see more 500 series effects, seems like a big untapped market.
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Post by jmoose on Nov 22, 2021 0:50:38 GMT -6
I'd love to see more 500 series effects, seems like a big untapped market. If you can convince a company to do it point em in my direction.... Have several ideas in my back pocket including a through zero flanger. Yes... deep, analog tape style full cancellation flange in the analog domain. It can absolutely be done. Had working prototypes in my hands some years ago. Developed with a company who never went past that point... long story. I could draw a block diagram right now. It's not rocket science but I don't have skils/time/desire to build rockets for a living. |
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Post by stratboy on Nov 22, 2021 21:02:30 GMT -6
Aphex made a box (the 124?) that was a stereo bi-directional +4/-10 converter. I still have one in the garage somewhere.If there’s a market for it, a +4/-20 version would be easy to do. Putting it in a double-wide pedal would make it accessible to a wider group of recording musicians.
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 22, 2021 22:13:40 GMT -6
Aphex made a box (the 124?) that was a stereo bi-directional +4/-10 converter. I still have one in the garage somewhere.If there’s a market for it, a +4/-20 version would be easy to do. Putting it in a double-wide pedal would make it accessible to a wider group of recording musicians. Sweetwater sells them. Still, it's just another way to possibly jerry rig pedals to a recording system, whereas what I and others are desiring are analog based pedals redesigned into rack or 500 series units. Analog delays, flangers, choruses, etc. The closest existing product to this would be the old Roland Dimension 320 and it's sister the Boss Dimension D pedal (don't know which came first.). I own the Klark Teknik BBD 320 and love it. And it was cheap. I'd love to see an analog stereo or dual mono delay along those lines. |
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Post by Ned Ward on Nov 23, 2021 9:28:28 GMT -6
There are companies that will do this - Adrian Belew (Talking Heads, King Crimson) had things like the Foxx Tone Machine racked when everyone was doing big racks.
For today, just get slide out trays to put the pedals on and get a switcher - that way you're only dealing with IO on a few points vs. on all pedals.
Also, for vintage or prized pedals, this keeps them original vs. destroying any value they may have had...
Radial's 500 series converters with input/output would be the ticket - add as many channels as you need/can afford.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Nov 23, 2021 18:39:52 GMT -6
The problem I had with the Radial converters was that it you set them for all wet, which was what I wanted, the output was to low to be useful. You couldn't hear it with other line level sources in a mix.
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Post by miadaudio on Nov 24, 2021 3:20:09 GMT -6
This circuit will most likely suffer from poor CMRR. You can get better performance by using some dedicated chips from TI or THAT with an op-amp acting as a voltage follower or as a level control depending on your needs. |
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