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Post by phdamage on Sept 17, 2021 11:43:19 GMT -6
I feel like a dunce for not thinking of it before, but I saw someone micing top and bottom toms with Y cables, effectively combining both mics before hitting the mic pre. This excited me, as I almost always mic toms from top and bottom. And I would love to utilize only a single mic pre for each tom. However, I almost exclusively use condensers for toms. I believe sending phantom from a single mic pre would sufficiently power both mics, but am I mistaken?
I recognize both mics may have different output levels, so it may take some work to balance them, but I should be able to do this, no?
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Post by EmRR on Sept 17, 2021 12:31:47 GMT -6
Most have very low draw and would be fine. Some are close to spec and power would sag.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 17, 2021 13:01:30 GMT -6
I feel like a dunce for not thinking of it before, but I saw someone micing top and bottom toms with Y cables, effectively combining both mics before hitting the mic pre. This excited me, as I almost always mic toms from top and bottom. And I would love to utilize only a single mic pre for each tom. However, I almost exclusively use condensers for toms. I believe sending phantom from a single mic pre would sufficiently power both mics, but am I mistaken? I recognize both mics may have different output levels, so it may take some work to balance them, but I should be able to do this, no? How are you planning on "balancing" 2 mics connected via 1 Y cord?
It may "work" but won't be optimum. And the more mics you have on one kit the more phasing problems you get. Over the past few years I've tended toward FEWER (and better) mics, not more.
Also, using Y cables the two mics are loading each other so neither one is putting out optimum frequency response.
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Post by phdamage on Sept 17, 2021 13:13:18 GMT -6
How are you planning on "balancing" 2 mics connected via 1 Y cord?
It may "work" but won't be optimum. And the more mics you have on one kit the more phasing problems you get. Over the past few years I've tended toward FEWER (and better) mics, not more.
Also, using Y cables the two mics are loading each other so neither one is putting out optimum frequency response.
just gonna give it a shot and see if it works. if not, no loss aside from the 5 min it takes me to make a Y cable. if I'm back to using two separate pres for each tom, so be it. just excited by the possibility of using fewer pres/inputs. saw a thing about Brendan O'Brien doing this with a 421/57 on toms. in the genres I typically work in (metal, hardcore, punk), fewer mics on kits doesn't yield the hyper-real sounds people tend to expect. I currently use no less than 15 mics on a kit most of the time.
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Post by svart on Sept 17, 2021 13:26:37 GMT -6
Of course, dynamic mics consume no power, so if you're Y cabling a dynamic and a condensor, then there would be virtually no difference to having only a condensor hooked up.
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Sept 17, 2021 13:54:08 GMT -6
When I was in nuclear power, propositions like this where labeled “Gross Conceptual Error”. You cannot simply Y or MULT mic outputs together. Think about it. If it was possible wouldn’t it have been in common practice for decades?
First, the phantom current draw from the preamp would double, dropping the phantom voltage delivered to the mics and robbing power. Obviously a bad situation.
Second the low impedance mic outputs would effectively short each other. This won’t be healthy for its output stage. If you get any signal at all it would be heavily distorted.
I don’t know what you saw in that video but there must be more going on than is apparent. Something like summing build-out resistors inside the XLR connectors. That might work with passive mics.
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Post by phdamage on Sept 17, 2021 13:54:41 GMT -6
I’m aiming for two condensers. Usually an oktava MK012 on top and an se electronics x1d on bottom.
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Post by svart on Sept 17, 2021 14:48:10 GMT -6
When I was in nuclear power, propositions like this where labeled “Gross Conceptual Error”. You cannot simply Y or MULT mic outputs together. Think about it. If it was possible wouldn’t it have been in common practice for decades? First, the phantom current draw from the preamp would double, dropping the phantom voltage delivered to the mics and robbing power. Obviously a bad situation. Second the low impedance mic outputs would effectively short each other. This won’t be healthy for its output stage. If you get any signal at all it would be heavily distorted. I don’t know what you saw in that video but there must be more going on than is apparent. Something like summing build-out resistors inside the XLR connectors. That might work with passive mics. It's not that simple. Mics are typically class AB and rarely require full phantom current. Most, if not all, have bulk capacitance internally that is rarely depleted so instantaneous current steps wouldn't be an issue for most. Both mic outputs would normally be in-phase and would lessen the amount of nulling, and would likely be working in compliment. Either way, most mics have some form of current limiting in the form of resistors. Output impedance in the few-hundred-ohms range isn't going to burn anything up even with dead shorts. I've Y'd mics together a lot over the years. I'm not a big fan of it anymore but it never became a problem doing it. If a mic has an issue, it'll sound bad and you won't use it like that anyway.
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Post by miadaudio on Sept 17, 2021 15:07:37 GMT -6
AFAIK, Y cabling is a rather old technique.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Sept 17, 2021 16:21:36 GMT -6
Might want to wire up a short polarity flip cable if you’re gonna go top and bottom into one pre.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,951
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Post by ericn on Sept 17, 2021 16:50:12 GMT -6
Can you ? Sure should you ? Let’s see the preamp is going to see the load of both mics, you have no control of the mixed level and small used mixers can be found dirt cheap so I would say I would rather not, but if you can get what you want go for it.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 17, 2021 18:15:03 GMT -6
+1 I've been reading about a Y-cable with one polarity flipped for snare top/bottom for decades. It's not new. And it’s a snare drum! Condensers? Not wildly different from the 'Straus Packet' (Volker Straus) approach in terms of power viability. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volker_StrausDone to create wide cardioid when no suitable mic was available.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 17, 2021 19:53:53 GMT -6
in the genres I typically work in (metal, hardcore, punk), fewer mics on kits doesn't yield the hyper-real sounds people tend to expect. I currently use no less than 15 mics on a kit most of the time. Yeah, I used to think that. Think about this: Led Zepplin's kit. 3 mics - 2 M210s and one D20. BIG sound? HELL, YEAH!
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 18, 2021 10:49:36 GMT -6
I don't know how Brendan O'Brien does it, but I know some prominent engineer/producers have custom boxes for that, with 2 female and one male XLR per channel, polarity switches and attenuators for blending. Personally, I wouldn't want to do it without the attenuators. I think the phantom power still comes from the mic pre in this scenario...
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 18, 2021 10:54:34 GMT -6
in the genres I typically work in (metal, hardcore, punk), fewer mics on kits doesn't yield the hyper-real sounds people tend to expect. I currently use no less than 15 mics on a kit most of the time. Yeah, I used to think that. Think about this: Led Zepplin's kit. 3 mics - 2 M210s and one D20. BIG sound? HELL, YEAH!
True, and awesome when it works, but it requires an amazing drummer like Bonham to perform it with everything balanced right. For most drummers we need a bunch of close mics so we can control the relative levels of each drum and cymbals in the mix, unfortunately. I like to use as few tracks as I can get away with when mixing, but with most drummers I'd rather have the tracks and not need them than need them and not have them. I use about 12 mics, including room mics, and I don't mic the bottom heads of toms, just the snare drum, FWIW.
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Post by phdamage on Sept 18, 2021 13:31:33 GMT -6
Yeah, I used to think that. Think about this: Led Zepplin's kit. 3 mics - 2 M210s and one D20. BIG sound? HELL, YEAH!
True, and awesome when it works, but it requires an amazing drummer like Bonham to perform it with everything balanced right. For most drummers we need a bunch of close mics so we can control the relative levels of each drum and cymbals in the mix, unfortunately. I like to use as few tracks as I can get away with when mixing, but with most drummers I'd rather have the tracks and not need them than need them and not have them. I use about 12 mics, including room mics, and I don't mic the bottom heads of toms, just the snare drum, FWIW. Well said. Especially if they’re playing blast beats - those seem to turn most drummers into tappers. We need all the help we can get
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Post by ragan on Sept 18, 2021 15:39:05 GMT -6
Also, the "they only needed a few mics for JOHN BONHAM therefore you only need a few mics bro" thing that gets repeated ad nauseam is ridiculous because, well, not everyone is trying to sound like Led Zeppelin records. The OP says they work mostly in punk, metal, hardcore, etc. It's irrelevant what Zeppelin records sound like because hardcore/punk/metal bands aren't going for that production aesthetic. It would be just as valid (meaning totally invalid) to go back in time and inform John Bonham/Eddie Kramer that Anthrax records are going to be made with a lot more mics on the drum kit so they better get some more mics going too.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 18, 2021 18:59:22 GMT -6
....and it comes around to.....the drummer.....
I've had session guys go over schedule and have to leave, replace them with another guy on the same kit, sounds nothing alike and they are the only part that's changed.
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Post by svart on Sept 18, 2021 19:08:26 GMT -6
Yeah, I used to think that. Think about this: Led Zepplin's kit. 3 mics - 2 M210s and one D20. BIG sound? HELL, YEAH!
True, and awesome when it works, but it requires an amazing drummer like Bonham to perform it with everything balanced right. For most drummers we need a bunch of close mics so we can control the relative levels of each drum and cymbals in the mix, unfortunately. I like to use as few tracks as I can get away with when mixing, but with most drummers I'd rather have the tracks and not need them than need them and not have them. I use about 12 mics, including room mics, and I don't mic the bottom heads of toms, just the snare drum, FWIW. I don't always use all the mics either. Better to have them and not need them.. Let's face it, most drummers aren't going to sound like another drummer, so I just do what I can with who's on the kit. A well tuned kit with the right heads can make must drummers sound a lot better..
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Post by svart on Sept 18, 2021 20:25:17 GMT -6
Oh and there's two types of drummers out there. The kind that tune the heads to the breaking point and the kind that barely finger-tight the tension rods.
Knowing how to tune a head to the shell is a huge step to sounding good.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 20, 2021 13:12:52 GMT -6
Also, the "they only needed a few mics for JOHN BONHAM therefore you only need a few mics bro" thing that gets repeated ad nauseam is ridiculous because, well, not everyone is trying to sound like Led Zeppelin records. The OP says they work mostly in punk, metal, hardcore, etc. It's irrelevant what Zeppelin records sound like because hardcore/punk/metal bands aren't going for that production aesthetic. It would be just as valid (meaning totally invalid) to go back in time and inform John Bonham/Eddie Kramer that Anthrax records are going to be made with a lot more mics on the drum kit so they better get some more mics going too. FWIW, I work mostly in country these days. Although the technique works for anything - the guy I got it from does Cyndi Lauper.
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Post by ragan on Sept 20, 2021 13:22:07 GMT -6
Also, the "they only needed a few mics for JOHN BONHAM therefore you only need a few mics bro" thing that gets repeated ad nauseam is ridiculous because, well, not everyone is trying to sound like Led Zeppelin records. The OP says they work mostly in punk, metal, hardcore, etc. It's irrelevant what Zeppelin records sound like because hardcore/punk/metal bands aren't going for that production aesthetic. It would be just as valid (meaning totally invalid) to go back in time and inform John Bonham/Eddie Kramer that Anthrax records are going to be made with a lot more mics on the drum kit so they better get some more mics going too. FWIW, I work mostly in country these days. Although the technique works for anything - the guy I got it from does Cyndi Lauper. I mean, sure, it works for anything if you want that minimally mic'd sound. I've used Glyn Johns (modified or just the straight up 3 mic original) many times. It works if you want that sonic aesthetic, it doesn't work if you don't. I have yet to hear a metal/punk/hardcore record that's going for that kind of aesthetic.
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Post by phdamage on Sept 20, 2021 15:34:38 GMT -6
i have actually tried glyn jons on myself playing for some jam/superchunk inspired punky songs. see here: rorschachrecords.bandcamp.com/album/the-song-is-youthis was some years ago (just about 10 when tracked, i believe). i think it worked pretty well for the first tune, but the second is a bit too intense in the hihat department and some tom hits get pretty lost - i do remember smacking the hell out of them at the time, too. but yeah, i think most of my clients would be bummed if their drums sounded this natural (even with my better gear and skills all these years later)
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Post by Ned Ward on Sept 20, 2021 16:49:57 GMT -6
combining the top and bottom mic of each tom sounds problematic - phantom power problems people have mentioned, but also polarity - you'll have no way to flip the polarity unless you wire the Y cable specially for it.
Is the issue not having enough mic pres? I'm not sure of the goal here as it seems like it creates more problems than it solves.
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