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Post by phdamage on Aug 30, 2021 8:18:26 GMT -6
I have far less experience with these than probably any other type of mic. My first was a Oktavamod MKL 2500. On the right singer, it sounded downright magical. Unfortunately, they had to hit the sweet spot of not too loud (crushing distortion) and not too quiet (it was noisy!) and loud drums blew it up, even from 30 feet away. Not using it very often, I sold it somewhat recently and bought an MKI Lawson. This mic is amazing and works on almost everything, though I did have a loud vocalist get it to break up quite a bit recently. Shortly after, envisioning a studio full of mics like the Lawson, I bought a Cathedral Pipes Regensberg Dom and I'm finding it far more likely to breakup than the Lawson (not what I expected, reading reviews of this mic) - I even had it overload like crazy on a distorted guitar amp recently (a first for me, it had been handling these quite well). I contacted Cathedral Pipes to see if maybe it needed servicing, but haven't heard back (seems they are radio silence, generally these days) and I don't know anyone else who owns one who can chime in.
I have been appreciating the more "finished" sound I am getting out of these tube mics, generally, and was hoping to add more to my arsenal. I predominantly record stupidly loud stuff (punk, metal, hardcore, etc - singers are almost always screamers, drummers are cymbal bashers, and guitars/bass are loud and dirty) and am wondering if maybe I'm chasing my tail here. I have a more than decent mic locker - some quality dynamics, ribbons and condensers. It's no Electrical Audio, but better than most small studios working in these genres.
Should I call it a day with my Lawson/Cathedral Pipes tubes? I have a lead on a good deal on a set of Korby Kat-4 and am thinking about that ADK 251 in the classifieds - should I expect similar volume limitations with these? But for the amount I'd drop on these, I could finally snag a Serrano 87 and have plenty of change to grab a nice ribbon and maybe even another 1176 clone or a Traynor YBA-3 I've been eyeing or something - not that I need any of those, but if I'm honest, I don't need anything (I'm sure you all can relate).
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Post by trakworxmastering on Aug 30, 2021 9:00:42 GMT -6
You can check the specifications of each mic before buying. Many can handle high SPLs. I've recorded lots of loud bands and I've never gotten my Lawsons to distort.
Is it possible that with your Lawson it's the mic preamp distorting? I ask because all tube mics I've used have a much hotter output level than dynamics, ribbons and regular condensers, so I can't use them on loud sources with certain mic pres. Maybe try some pads or different pres?
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Post by phdamage on Aug 30, 2021 9:12:30 GMT -6
the vocal dirt could absolutely be the pre for the Lawson - this instance was using a Hamptone JFET and they tend to get dirty and break up quick for me on screamers - a quality I tend to pick them for.
I do have plenty of pads on hand I could certainly try. the Cathedral Pipes (which strangely seems to have no published max SPL) has broken up with many different pres - I think I was using a Chandler Little Devil on that particular distorted guitar, and no matter how much I backed it off, it was breaking up. But have had similar issues pairing it with my CAPI, JLM 99V or TG500, Sebatron, Chandler Germ, etc. I guess I have yet to try pairing it with my crazy person modded MAudio transformerless pre. So I'll give that a shot next time.
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Post by tkaitkai on Aug 30, 2021 10:55:57 GMT -6
How hard are you hitting the mic pre? I'm an obnoxiously loud singer (I also do some punk/hardcore stuff occasionally), and the only time I get distortion with various tube mics I've owned is when I'm either hitting the mic pre or A/D too hard. As mentioned, pad can definitely come in handy.
That said, for screaming vocals, I've often found that many expensive mics tend to sound too polished/pretty. Might sound crazy, but an MXL V67G is one of my absolute favorites when I'm recording punk songs.
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Post by bgrotto on Aug 30, 2021 11:00:50 GMT -6
I've got some mk2 Lawsons, and I don't know the difference (if any) in SPL handling, but fwiw it would take a REALLY LOUD singer to overload those mics. I can put em in front of a drum kit all day, no sweat. I'm also guessing there's a healthy enough output level from the mic that it's overloading the preamp, and that's the cause of the dirt you're hearing.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 30, 2021 11:02:48 GMT -6
When I was mainly doing loud stuff, there was no way I could survive without use of pads, even with dynamics. I almost never used condensers.
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Post by phdamage on Aug 30, 2021 11:08:28 GMT -6
Very few of my mic pres don’t have pads. And as I almost exclusively use condensers on drums, they rarely get disengaged.
The singer in question on the Lawson was definitely super loud. He was more shouty than screamy and it only really broke up when he really leaned into it. That for sure could still have been preamp based.
The cathedral pipes on the other hand has a different quality. Like I feel like I can hear the diaphragm crapping out. I’ll certainly keep trying with it, but it just gives out long before the Lawson, comparatively.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 30, 2021 11:21:55 GMT -6
My Flea 47 has a hot output and I need to pad it down and keep preamp gain low, fairly often.
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Post by tkaitkai on Aug 30, 2021 13:44:37 GMT -6
My Flea 47 has a hot output and I need to pad it down and keep preamp gain low, fairly often. Yep, same thing with my Upton 251. I leave the preamp gain parked at two clicks above zero — any higher and it starts sounding overcooked. When I had my M149, I had to use the same low input gain and an inline pad. It feels wimpy, but sounds better. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 30, 2021 21:16:46 GMT -6
I have only overloaded my FleA 49 and a FleA 47 once while recording the operatic segment of my comparison video. Every other time I’ve felt like things were overloaded it was the preamp not the mic. I am loud. My wife is even louder. I recently had to completely relearn how to gain stage things with my Neve preamp cause it is so easy to distort. I would look at your gain stage first. It may really be that simple…. Or simply tell the artist to back off a touch. There is a reason so many screamers use the SM7, cause it’s ideal for that kind of recording.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 30, 2021 22:11:15 GMT -6
Very few of my mic pres don’t have pads. And as I almost exclusively use condensers on drums, they rarely get disengaged. The singer in question on the Lawson was definitely super loud. He was more shouty than screamy and it only really broke up when he really leaned into it. That for sure could still have been preamp based. The cathedral pipes on the other hand has a different quality. Like I feel like I can hear the diaphragm crapping out. I’ll certainly keep trying with it, but it just gives out long before the Lawson, comparatively. "leaned into it". How close/far way, did you mic him? I need to be at least 18"-2 feet away when LOUD. Chris |
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Post by hadaja on Aug 30, 2021 23:05:06 GMT -6
You should buy that ADK in the classifieds. Its the same as my one and its pretty up there in quality. Super smooth and quiet.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 31, 2021 0:45:54 GMT -6
A great mic choice and seller to boot!  Chris |
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Post by phdamage on Aug 31, 2021 7:43:12 GMT -6
Very few of my mic pres don’t have pads. And as I almost exclusively use condensers on drums, they rarely get disengaged. The singer in question on the Lawson was definitely super loud. He was more shouty than screamy and it only really broke up when he really leaned into it. That for sure could still have been preamp based. The cathedral pipes on the other hand has a different quality. Like I feel like I can hear the diaphragm crapping out. I’ll certainly keep trying with it, but it just gives out long before the Lawson, comparatively. "leaned into it". How close/far way, did you mic him? I need to be at least 18"-2 feet away when LOUD. Chris I meant that phrase more performance wise - he was just pushing it is all. I set up pop filters about 6" off the mic, typically. My live room is small, so don't want the room in there much, if I can help it. I haven't experimented much with farther away in a bit, but worth a shot, certainly. I rarely work with singers with good mic technique, sadly. I try to explain the "back up when you're loud" idea, but I'm convinced I end up sounding like the teacher from Peanuts. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 31, 2021 8:46:31 GMT -6
Try going right into a compressor. No preamp. I’ve done that a bunch on loud guitar amps with a 67
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Post by EmRR on Aug 31, 2021 9:07:23 GMT -6
Try going right into a compressor. No preamp. I’ve done that a bunch on loud guitar amps with a 67 Yeah a 67 doesn’t need a preamp at all in that case. |
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Post by phdamage on Sept 1, 2021 12:04:19 GMT -6
thanks, folks! pads seem to be helping. I dunno why I always assumed the mic was the issue. Now I'm wondering if I should have held onto that Oktavamod MKL2500. ah well.
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jits
Full Member
Posts: 28
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Post by jits on Sept 1, 2021 12:26:21 GMT -6
What are some good pads that works well for this? (I have my first tube mic on order..!)
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Post by phdamage on Sept 1, 2021 13:29:15 GMT -6
I have a ton I ordered from Naiant years ago - before I had pads on most of my mic pres. have a bunch of -12 dB pads from them, a pair of -24 dB and a single 18 dB attenuator. they were pretty affordable. less than Whirlwind/Shure offerings at the time, I believe.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 1, 2021 13:44:29 GMT -6
20dB is the technically correct thing, most likely to sound 'same as'. Which everyone seems to ignore......at unknown peril.
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Post by phdamage on Sept 1, 2021 14:02:26 GMT -6
20dB is the technically correct thing, most likely to sound 'same as'. Which everyone seems to ignore......at unknown peril. please elaborate. i'm curious about this |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 1, 2021 14:55:48 GMT -6
20dB is the technically correct thing, most likely to sound 'same as'. Which everyone seems to ignore......at unknown peril. please elaborate. i'm curious about this The resistance required to mimic the impedance of the average mic pre ends up at about 20dB. Less than 20dB is a lower resistance to the mic than it would see without the pad. You can go lower if you want to toss treble in dynamics and increase distortion in condensers. This has been written about extensively, probably most widely available in the 'Handbook for Sound Engineers', one of the main bibles of audio knowledge. |
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Post by jmoose on Sept 1, 2021 16:01:03 GMT -6
Try going right into a compressor. No preamp. I’ve done that a bunch on loud guitar amps with a 67 Long time ago someone hipped me to dropping the good old sm57 on snare right into an 1176. Is nice! Some mics on some sources are basically hot enough to be line level. Can use outboard phantom and go right into a compressor... Not all pads are created equal and another factor is where they are in the circuit. Even mic preamps. Sometimes the pad is downstream from the input stage so you can still clip the snot out of the very front end and all the pad does is turn down an already distorted signal. Everyone should have a couple of shure or AT inline variable pads in their toolbox. Nifty problem solvers. FWIW I'd also take any given mic builders max SPL specs with a grain of salt. I've blown up a few mics that, on paper should survive anything at 160dB but instead ended up with the diaphragm nailed to the backplate. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 1, 2021 16:45:07 GMT -6
Yeah they like to spec 160dB at 1kHz which is meaningless. Many times it’s a 6dB/oct depreciation from there going down so a 30Hz thump transient might be ugly.
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