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Post by cademan7 on Aug 27, 2021 19:15:06 GMT -6
Hey everybody! I need some advice. I’ve been tasked with outfitting a Studio B/Editing Room for a major recording studio. The Church Studio in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The main studio is a large live room with multiple iso booths and a control room outfitted with a Neve 8068 console, vintage outboard gear (Urei 1176’s, DBX 160’s, Lexicon 480L, (2) EMT 140 plate reverbs, two subterranean echo chambers, etc.) and a serous mic locker stocked with all the classic microphones from Neumann, AKG, Telefunken, etc. But we would like to have a second smaller studio to function as a lower cost of entry space for some simple tracking, overdubs, voiceover work, vocal tracking, pre-production, songwriting sessions, but also a secondary space for larger sessions to have an assistant prepping Pro Tools sessions, editing, etc. on another machine in Studio B to maximize their time in Studio A. But I’m also thinking it could function has a smaller, more affordable hybrid mix room because it’s a perfect size and shape for that.
So, what are some pieces of equipment, accessories, etc. that you all would like to see in such a space? I have a budget of about 40K and my list of equipment thus far is tipping that scale. Here is my list:
Dangerfox Genesis 16U workstation desk
Apple iMac 27”
Universal Audio Apollo x8p interface
ATC SCM25A studio monitors
Switchcraft Studio Patch 6425 patchbay
(2) AMS Neve 1073 CH in 3U horizontal rack case
Chanler Limited REDD.47 preamp
BAE 312A 2-channel mic preamp
Tube-Tech CL1B compressor
Purple Audio MC77 limiter
API 2500 stereo bus compressor
API 5500 Dual equalizer
Anyway, I would love anyone’s thoughts or suggestions about what’s lacking or what could be better. I’m sure there’s things I’m probably overlooking so I’d love to hear some of your thoughts about the kind of work you could envision doing in such a space and what would make that work easier for you.
Thanks,
Cade
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 27, 2021 19:36:02 GMT -6
I would consider a few things:
1) maybe look into a Redco Patchbay. Last time I looked they were quite a bit cheaper than the switchcraft and still really good.
2) As a free lancer I’d be happy with any Neve style/clone preamp. Save some money with a Heritage, AML, Vintech etc.
3) I’d also consider going 500 series and just getting pairs of CAPI vp28’s, Neve clones and some clean preamps like millennia etc. But keep the Chandler Redd, because…we’ll just because.
4) Those are some bad ass compressors but maybe a bit much for a “B” room? As a freelancer I’d find it more useful to have the staples like an AS 1176 and AS LA2A
5) good job prioritizing monitors! Those ATC’s will no doubt sound great.
Anyway just my 2cents. Sounds like it’s going to be awesome. Good luck!
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Post by cademan7 on Aug 27, 2021 19:48:06 GMT -6
Thanks for the advice! The Redco patchbay is the way to go for sure. Regarding the Neves, I'm a bit skeptical of the 500 series format specifically when it comes to Neve style preamps. But I did consider that. I also really like the idea of having a very transparent pre like the Millenia somewhere in the mix. That's a good call. Regarding the monitoring, ABSOLUTELY! That's the one area I will not consider scaling back on. Haha The compression if probably a bit much and that will be the first area where I'll have to start scaling back if the budget becomes too much. I was mainly looking to get some other people's thoughts on the types of compression they'd like to see in that type of studio, which you touched on. You definitely can't go wrong with 1176's or LA2A's however we have so much of that in Studio A that I was thinking it would be nice for this room to be sort of a more modern compliment to that? But maybe not.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 27, 2021 21:16:41 GMT -6
If you’re running PT, I’d definitely have an HDX setup and Avid interface instead of an Apollo.
If I paid to use a studio and had to deal with having issues with Hardware Inserts screwing with timing of sessions because of the interface I’d be pretty bummed out.
And if it’s going to be a hybrid mix room, or if you’re going to be overdubbing on sessions with lots of plugs then HDX is the only way to go.
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Post by sirthought on Aug 27, 2021 22:03:33 GMT -6
Great fun just talking about the possibilities. You certainly have a list worth drooling over.
I've not used the hardware of all of these, so grain of salt.
My impression of the 2500 is that it's got more of a learning curve than other bus comps, which can lead to a lot of guys getting too much gain. As others have said Audioscape hits a quality level and you'll likely be able to have a greater variety of compressors.
I'd be happier seeing a bus comp in the style of SSL, Vertigo VSC, 33609, or one of those clones. You may have a preference for the API and I'd understand why.
Also Audioscape dual Pultecs would be nice on a stereo bus. Or something similar vibey like a Curve Bender.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2021 8:50:59 GMT -6
I'd make sure there's a Neumann U87 always available for use in those sessions. Also, you may want to look at the Dangerous Music 2 Bus +.
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Post by cademan7 on Aug 28, 2021 12:54:08 GMT -6
If you’re running PT, I’d definitely have an HDX setup and Avid interface instead of an Apollo. If I paid to use a studio and had to deal with having issues with Hardware Inserts screwing with timing of sessions because of the interface I’d be pretty bummed out. And if it’s going to be a hybrid mix room, or if you’re going to be overdubbing on sessions with lots of plugs then HDX is the only way to go. That's a great point, as much as I hate to believe. I was thinking the Apollo would be great because it will also let us use UAD plugins, and if I go the HDX/Avid route, I'll have to get a UAD satellite too, which really adds quite a lot to the budget overall. But it's a great point that I'll definitely consider carefully. |
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Post by cademan7 on Aug 28, 2021 12:55:21 GMT -6
I'd make sure there's a Neumann U87 always available for use in those sessions. Also, you may want to look at the Dangerous Music 2 Bus +. Excellent point! We have a couple of U87's in our mic locker, but having one that's available at all times in that room would be really nice. |
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Post by cademan7 on Aug 28, 2021 12:58:51 GMT -6
Great fun just talking about the possibilities. You certainly have a list worth drooling over. I've not used the hardware of all of these, so grain of salt. My impression of the 2500 is that it's got more of a learning curve than other bus comps, which can lead to a lot of guys getting too much gain. As others have said Audioscape hits a quality level and you'll likely be able to have a greater variety of compressors. I'd be happier seeing a bus comp in the style of SSL, Vertigo VSC, 33609, or one of those clones. You may have a preference for the API and I'd understand why. Also Audioscape dual Pultecs would be nice on a stereo bus. Or something similar vibey like a Curve Bender. I love the idea of Pultecs for the stereo bus and that will probably be one of my first upgrades later on after the initial install. I really like the API 2500 for drums but also for dual mono purposes, but the SSL style comps are more useful for actual mixbus compression, I agree. Ideally I'd like to have both at some point, but can only afford one or the other for the time being. I'll spend some more time considering which one would be better to start with. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919 
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Post by ericn on Aug 28, 2021 18:14:11 GMT -6
What is the client base this room is aimed at? If your going to be tracking bands I want at least 8ch of the same pre amp say CAPI since the CAPI 500 rack is 11 spaces you could fill it with say something clean.
HDX would be a great way to go and I agree in a for a room for hire Avid interfaces make the most sense.
One of the biggest questions to ask is how much of the A room gear or new gear will float between the 2 rooms? Martin is right your going to need to build the mic locker so that both rooms always has the basics covered.
ATC 25s are awesome near fields, but I’m going to want subs or something bigger for some thump, I also want something to cover the crappy speaker space like Auratones and if it’s going to be an ITB room I might consider adding a surround capable system.
With affordable quality clones like Audioscape the standards are obtainable
2 La2s
2 1176s
2 Pultecs
are easy
a second 500 rack of EQs
and the basics are covered.
I want to see some kind of small mixer for general problems solving, extra pres, being able to gain extra inputs, an extra headphone amp level matching etc.
Put the time energy and money into the acoustics hire somebody like Jeff Headback, make the room itself a draw. Plus you don’t know how many places have built a second room without getting the isolation right and can’t have them both in use at once. Also as far as non recording space do you want both rooms sharing lounge space? In Tulsa your going to need to get the HVAC right.
I would save a bunch on the bays buy buying a bunch of used hardwired bays and doing all the cabling in house. You quickly learn the concept of dsub and thinking in blocks of 8 is a pain. Wire a bay with problem solvers, phase reverse, pads, iso transformers, mults, etc.
As far as any additional gear the smartest move is to ask the freelancers you want to bring in what they might want. The simplest rule is this nobody knows what the client wants like the client.
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Post by cademan7 on Aug 28, 2021 18:52:30 GMT -6
What is the client base this room is aimed at? If your going to be tracking bands I want at least 8ch of the same pre amp say CAPI since the CAPI 500 rack is 11 spaces you could fill it with say something clean. HDX would be a great way to go and I agree in a for a room for hire Avid interfaces make the most sense. One of the biggest questions to ask is how much of the A room gear or new gear will float between the 2 rooms? Martin is right your going to need to build the mic locker so that both rooms always has the basics covered. ATC 25s are awesome near fields, but I’m going to want subs or something bigger for some thump, I also want something to cover the crappy speaker space like Auratones and if it’s going to be an ITB room I might consider adding a surround capable system. With affordable quality clones like Audioscape the standards are obtainable 2 La2s 2 1176s 2 Pultecs are easy a second 500 rack of EQs and the basics are covered. I want to see some kind of small mixer for general problems solving, extra pres, being able to gain extra inputs, an extra headphone amp level matching etc. Put the time energy and money into the acoustics hire somebody like Jeff Headback, make the room itself a draw. Plus you don’t know how many places have built a second room without getting the isolation right and can’t have them both in use at once. Also as far as non recording space do you want both rooms sharing lounge space? In Tulsa your going to need to get the HVAC right. I would save a bunch on the bays buy buying a bunch of used hardwired bays and doing all the cabling in house. You quickly learn the concept of dsub and thinking in blocks of 8 is a pain. Wire a bay with problem solvers, phase reverse, pads, iso transformers, mults, etc. As far as any additional gear the smartest move is to ask the freelancers you want to bring in what they might want. The simplest rule is this nobody knows what the client wants like the client. That's all great feedback. I'll clarify a little bit about who I think will be using this room. I think it will be a good room for pre-production and songwriting demoing, editing, tuning, some overdubs, vocal tracking, keyboards, programming drums, bass tracking, voiceover, post-production, and some ITB mixing. I can also seeing it as being useful for larger sessions happening in Studio A to have a secondary Pro Tools machine for editing, prepping session, etc. Anything that can help the session move along more efficiently in the main studio. The room isn't large enough to track a band and Studio A is where we will be doing that kind of work. I would like this room to be acoustically sound enough to do some ITB mixing and for it to have a good sound for tracking vocals, acoustic guitar, etc. The only gear that will float from room to room will be microphones. However, I like John's idea of having at least something like a U87 that lives in this room permanently. Here is a link to a computer mockup of the general layout of the room, if that's helpful. www.dropbox.com/s/ayyk5klfnbukglp/Studio%20B%20Mockup.png?dl=0 |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 28, 2021 21:43:55 GMT -6
If it’s going to be a situation where you’re going to have clients move from room to room in order to edit or do overdubs you’re going to need to make sure you’re on the same software updates and you’ve got all of the same plugins in both rooms. I was pretty much in charge of making this happen at a large facility with 3 rooms for about 6 years or so and you’ve got to make the move from one room to another absolutely seamless for the client.
Also it’s a good idea to run tie lines into the bigger room as well. All of this should come up in the patchbays and machine room patch points are important as well. Want to finish that mix but don’t have the rmx16 in the B room? Patch that in if nobody is in A and get to work! I’ve tracked an entire band from the A live room in our B control room using tie lines when somebody was mixing on the SSL. Yeah it wasn’t glorious but I was able to make it work and the studio benefited from it.
I’d also recommend having at least 1 floating rack of a really good vocal chain that can go from room to room. Only budgeted for 4 days in the big room but the singer had allergies and couldn’t sing the last 2 days? No problem, we can cut you a deal in the B room and finish up vocals with you when you’re feeling better. That keeps the client from going home and singing on a junk mic into an interface pre and leaving the engineer to deal with the bullshit of just making it work instead of having something great to work with.
There is so much more than just gear when it comes to outfitting a multi room facility. I’d concentrate on the stuff that will make the engineers life easy. When the money starts rolling in because you’ve got a streamlined system, then it’s time to start throwing cash at the “goodies”
Good luck it’s gonna be a headache but lots of fun and rewarding at the same time!
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Post by cademan7 on Aug 28, 2021 21:49:08 GMT -6
If it’s going to be a situation where you’re going to have clients move from room to room in order to edit or do overdubs you’re going to need to make sure you’re on the same software updates and you’ve got all of the same plugins in both rooms. I was pretty much in charge of making this happen at a large facility with 3 rooms for about 6 years or so and you’ve got to make the move from one room to another absolutely seamless for the client. Also it’s a good idea to run tie lines into the bigger room as well. All of this should come up in the patchbays and machine room patch points are important as well. Want to finish that mix but don’t have the rmx16 in the B room? Patch that in if nobody is in A and get to work! I’ve tracked an entire band from the A live room in our B control room using tie lines when somebody was mixing on the SSL. Yeah it wasn’t glorious but I was able to make it work and the studio benefited from it. I’d also recommend having at least 1 floating rack of a really good vocal chain that can go from room to room. Only budgeted for 4 days in the big room but the singer had allergies and couldn’t sing the last 2 days? No problem, we can cut you a deal in the B room and finish up vocals with you when you’re feeling better. That keeps the client from going home and singing on a junk mic into an interface pre and leaving the engineer to deal with the bullshit of just making it work instead of having something great to work with. There is so much more than just gear when it comes to outfitting a multi room facility. I’d concentrate on the stuff that will make the engineers life easy. When the money starts rolling in because you’ve got a streamlined system, then it’s time to start throwing cash at the “goodies” Good luck it’s gonna be a headache but lots of fun and rewarding at the same time! Thanks for the advice! This is all great info. It definitely needs to be as seamless as possible. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 10, 2021 17:53:53 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Sept 11, 2021 21:19:22 GMT -6
you’ve got to make the move from one room to another absolutely seamless for the client. This ^^^^^^ is super important IMO. If you're prepping sessions for the main room, even having the exact same i/o naming and setup becomes super important so you can literally open and change NOTHING on the main room. HDX, i/o, plugins - all identical is a draw IMO. The rest of the gear follows distant second if this is a setup, support, overdub, ancillary room for the main room. Second is a killer interface (wiring wise) between the two rooms. If stand alone, then my first question would be what is your book hourly rate going to be. That would color all my other decisions about how to equip it. Good luck!! |
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Post by Ward on Sept 13, 2021 6:55:58 GMT -6
Definitely consider audioscape clones for your 1176 et al needs. Purple MC77 is great, but the audioscape 76s come in A D and F, depending on if you want grind punch or clean. Instead of a CL1b (and I dearly love mine), consider the Audioscape Opto-comp, many here own them. Don't just take my word for it. EQs, a pair of Audioscape Pultec clones are IMPOSSIBLE to beat. And couple them with the amazing MEQs, and you're in candyland. And although the API 2500 is great, an Audioscape or Stam SSL G bus comp is much more affordable, and flexible. If you need anything in the API field, jsteiger at CAPI is the man to speak with. Having Paul Wolfe on his side should tell you e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. Outside of everything audioscape, jeremygillespie is BANG ON TARGET! Get an Avid HD i/o or two bundled with an HDX card. Echoing drbill, And at least 16 balanced tie-lines between the two rooms, from one patch bay to another. unless it's over 100', then you might have an issue or two. But sometimes not! |
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Post by Ned Ward on Sept 13, 2021 8:33:56 GMT -6
I'd get either a MacMini or M1 Mac with 27" monitors (plural) vs. an iMac. That way people can use your Mac or if they're adamant plug in their own laptop with ease - they may be more comfortable with Logic, Digital Performer, etc.
I don't see wiring as a cost, but that will add up.
Also while lots of good hardware, agree on budgeting for Avid HDX and the breakout box needed. That may push you to a Mac Pro.
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Post by tasteliketape on Sept 23, 2021 17:49:03 GMT -6
For Patchbay’s I’d give this guy a serious look. You get them pre wired Also . There’s a template on his web site www.misterpatchbay.com/ |
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Post by christopher on Oct 8, 2021 9:53:37 GMT -6
this is a fun read! I missed out on the fun, I wonder how the room is? I love when protools works but so often it just doesn’t, and switching between machines can be a major delay. I feel like everything about PT is slow, which is great for billable hours though! Or really bad if you have a conscious and comp the hours while things are messed up. Reaper is such a faster program to use, except for stuff where you use the pencil tool and editing, there protools is a little better. But it’s not a huge advantage, a minor one. The main thing: Reaper always works on every system I’ve ever used, install is easy with no ilok crap, it WILL play files no matter what sample rate, and there’s no limit to tracks. I just assembled 2 days of tracking into a 700 track project so I could sort into new project folders. If I was switching between computers, sample rates, etc …and I do it constantly, Reaper is the way to go. I’d consider a cheap backup Reaper system in both rooms ready to go at all times. Import files with time stamp and it’s back to work
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Post by notneeson on Oct 8, 2021 22:36:04 GMT -6
this is a fun read! I missed out on the fun, I wonder how the room is? I love when protools works but so often it just doesn’t, and switching between machines can be a major delay. I feel like everything about PT is slow, which is great for billable hours though! Or really bad if you have a conscious and comp the hours while things are messed up. Reaper is such a faster program to use, except for stuff where you use the pencil tool and editing, there protools is a little better. But it’s not a huge advantage, a minor one. The main thing: Reaper always works on every system I’ve ever used, install is easy with no ilok crap, it WILL play files no matter what sample rate, and there’s no limit to tracks. I just assembled 2 days of tracking into a 700 track project so I could sort into new project folders. If I was switching between computers, sample rates, etc …and I do it constantly, Reaper is the way to go. I’d consider a cheap backup Reaper system in both rooms ready to go at all times. Import files with time stamp and it’s back to work Huh, different experiences, I suppose. I have never had any issues with Pro Tools HD or HDX that cost the artist any time on a for-hire session. I am hard pressed to think of a single mid-session reboot, even. |
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Post by christopher on Oct 8, 2021 23:20:41 GMT -6
Luckier than me.. the problem is so many studios don’t use HDX or even know how to setup their rigs. But they gotta have PT anyway, or they aren’t pro  .. I don’t blame them, who wants to spend 1/5 the budget on a 90s recording platform and can’t afford working headphones. Just please… at least get Reaper working, basic record/play, it works.. why not have it ready to go. |
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Post by sean on Oct 9, 2021 8:20:21 GMT -6
If this is a small B room with just a control room and a vocal booth, I really wouldn't worry too much about outboard. I'd get 4 channels of preamps...like a stereo API and a stereo Neve/BAE 1073 with EQ, a couple tracking compressors like a 1176 and CL1B or LA-2A would be perfect. A U87's and a pair of good small diaphragm condensers for recording acoustic instrument overdubs. Done.
HDX and Avid I/O (or whatever you are using in the A room) with whatever plugins are in the A room for all the reasons stated above. I don't even think you'd need to throw down that much money on SCM25's...consider something like Genelec 1031A's or more affordable, common powered speakers.
Make it an easy place for people to bring their laptops and hook it up to the speakers and use their own portable interface as well. If it's going to be a songwriting room, I wouldn't count on everyone knowing how to use Pro Tools. A lot of people will already have a "track" or something made in Logic/Ableton and just want to overdub a vocal or acoustic guitar or keys/synths to that.
If it's going to be a room to cater to co-writes, it's going to need a nice vibe.
Good luck! Not an easy task.
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.. I don’t blame them, who wants to spend 1/5 the budget on a 90s recording platform and can’t afford working headphones. Just please… at least get Reaper working, basic record/play, it works.. why not have it ready to go.