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Post by phdamage on Jul 7, 2021 17:54:58 GMT -6
Apologies if I should stick this in the guitar/bass/amp forum instead, but this seemed more appropriate, as I am no guitarist.
I record mostly loud punk/hc/metal bands with buckets of distortion. Probably 65% of the time, the bands use their own guitar amps, but I do have quite a few on hand:
Fryette D60, Peavey 5150 (2x12 combo), Sovtek Mig-60, Ampeg V4, Orange Tiny Terror, and Yamaha T50 (modded and is actually pretty killer). All of these are high gain heads, aside from the V4 and maybe the Mig60. And I have a few speaker cabinets that do get used often, 4x12: oversized Mesa w v30s, Peavey VTM era with GT85s, another with Fanes (M65 and H75), as well as a few 1x15s loaded with EV15Ls.
For years, I have been toying with the idea of getting a Fender of some kind for some twinkly cleans - a silverface twin seem like it would fit the bill, but I don't really have a need or the room for another combo. Have thought of maybe a Bandmaster, Showman, Bassman or even a Vox AC30. Thing is, many of these have been made for so long and had so many iterations, I have no idea what the hell I should be aiming for.
A blackface would be nice, but I'd love to keep this under $700 or so - which should put those out of the running. Atomic in DC seem to have silverface twins all the time for around that price, but again, no idea what I should be looking for. Right now, they have a bunch of silverface Twins for $700-850 or so, but they have a "Twin Amp" for $600. Is this the "evil twin" people talk about?
Is this just dumb overkill? Should I just buy a Valve Jr and call it a day? Should I look for a MusicMan? I know they aren't dirt cheap anymore, but still maybe a better deal than a Fender or nah?
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Post by reddirt on Jul 7, 2021 18:20:58 GMT -6
A Princeton with a 10" is very nice Cheers, ross
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Post by drbill on Jul 7, 2021 18:27:37 GMT -6
Blackface Princeton or Deluxe!!
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Post by srb on Jul 7, 2021 18:31:46 GMT -6
Of the Fenders you listed, a Bandmaster head would probably be your best bet with tone and cost considerations in mind. It does have a 4 ohm output, though, which might create cabinet/speaker issues. Fenders usually can tolerate a bit of mismatch; in this case a 2 ohm or 8 ohm load. I just saw a serviced drip edge ('67) on a FB group that had one for $600. Shipping would be extra. I'd think that would bring it right to your budget limit. www.facebook.com/groups/289895717860368/?ref=shareI love Deluxe Reverbs and Princeton Reverbs in the studio here as well. The Bandmaster will stay cleaner longer before significant distortion onset, though.
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Post by donr on Jul 7, 2021 18:48:19 GMT -6
Having grown up during the blackface/silverface transition, I don't perceive any advantage to a silverface amp over the pre-CBS blackface versions. Not that you couldn't get great tones out of either of them. My bias is the blackface, for soul. Shortly after Fender switched to silverface, they brought out their first transistor amps. No one even speaks of those today.
Don't take my advice tho, it's been a long time since I plugged into a bunch of real amps for a comparison.
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Post by phdamage on Jul 7, 2021 19:20:12 GMT -6
Of the Fenders you listed, a Bandmaster head would probably be your best bet with tone and cost considerations in mind. It does have a 4 ohm output, though, which might create cabinet/speaker issues. Fenders usually can tolerate a bit of mismatch; in this case a 2 ohm or 8 ohm load. I just saw a serviced drip edge ('67) on a FB group that had one for $600. Shipping would be extra. I'd think that would bring it right to your budget limit. www.facebook.com/groups/289895717860368/?ref=shareI love Deluxe Reverbs and Princeton Reverbs in the studio here as well. The Bandmaster will stay cleaner longer before significant distortion onset, though. cool! hope the admins let me in so i can see it thanks!
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Post by phdamage on Jul 7, 2021 19:25:40 GMT -6
Blackface Princeton or Deluxe!! which model Deluxe? a search on Reverb pulls in all kinds of stuff I loved the sound of the Princetons I've had in the studio. I guess I always thought they were out of my price range. Can they be hooked up to an external cab? single speaker and smaller combos always sound tiny and/or boxy to me when recording. A friend had an old silverface vibrochamp that I used to love for leads, but I can't imagine ever using it for a main guitar track.
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Post by srb on Jul 7, 2021 19:55:53 GMT -6
Blackface Princeton or Deluxe!! which model Deluxe? a search on Reverb pulls in all kinds of stuff I loved the sound of the Princetons I've had in the studio. I guess I always thought they were out of my price range. Can they be hooked up to an external cab? single speaker and smaller combos always sound tiny and/or boxy to me when recording. A friend had an old silverface vibrochamp that I used to love for leads, but I can't imagine ever using it for a main guitar track. I'm not the good Dr., but vintage Deluxes and Princetons ('60's-'70's) are my preference, but they're much more than $700. I have a reissue Princeton. It's OK. Just doesn't have the vibe of the original. My '72 is often a go-to. I use a Vibro Champ lots for full guitar tracks. I'm doing blues, soul, funk, etc. with it. A speaker change is key there. Makes it much more versatile.
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Post by jmoose on Jul 7, 2021 20:01:12 GMT -6
which model Deluxe? a search on Reverb pulls in all kinds of stuff I loved the sound of the Princetons I've had in the studio. I guess I always thought they were out of my price range. Can they be hooked up to an external cab? Deluxe Reverb is the standard... most common is the DRRI or Deluxe Reverb ReIssue. They've been making the DRRI since the 90s. Has 20 odd watts tremolo & reverb. The hot rod deluxe is a 40 watt channel switcher. Also really popular. There is a deluxe non reverb but those are vintage and extremely rare. Sorta feel like every serious room needs a Fender of some type. It's a well known common sound. Bigger amps like a twin are also great for keys & synths. Plug a moog into one. And yes you can unplug the speaker from a princeton & shove it through a 4x12. But some of the magic is the open back cab. I feel like $700 might be limiting. If you can get towards $1k lots of options open up. Everyone I've ever known that bought a cheap twin ended up dumping money into it. They tend to get abused because of the weight. Adding a blackface Fender is on my shortlist right now... I've always had access to excellent vintage models. Ex studio partner had a 67 dripedge deluxe & one of my buds has a few others like a great super reverb & non reverb deluxe but he just moved. AC30 is great but a different beast. Everyone thinks clean & chime but plug a Les Paul in and they grind like a Marshall. I had an excellent UK built 30 with blues & sold it. Miss that amp sometimes but it was way too loud for most situations.
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 7, 2021 20:14:29 GMT -6
FWIW - if you wanna skate by on the cheap, you can usually snag a Peavey Classic 30 (or, less preferably IMO due to the weight of the damn thing, a Classic 50) combo amp for short money. They sound quite good.
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Post by srb on Jul 7, 2021 20:20:39 GMT -6
FWIW - if you wanna skate by on the cheap, you can usually snag a Peavey Classic 30 (or, less preferably IMO due to the weight of the damn thing, a Classic 50) combo amp for short money. They sound quite good. The Peavey Delta Blues is a good one, too.
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Post by phdamage on Jul 7, 2021 20:27:18 GMT -6
which model Deluxe? a search on Reverb pulls in all kinds of stuff I loved the sound of the Princetons I've had in the studio. I guess I always thought they were out of my price range. Can they be hooked up to an external cab? Deluxe Reverb is the standard... most common is the DRRI or Deluxe Reverb ReIssue. They've been making the DRRI since the 90s. Has 20 odd watts tremolo & reverb. The hot rod deluxe is a 40 watt channel switcher. Also really popular. There is a deluxe non reverb but those are vintage and extremely rare. Sorta feel like every serious room needs a Fender of some type. It's a well known common sound. Bigger amps like a twin are also great for keys & synths. Plug a moog into one. And yes you can unplug the speaker from a princeton & shove it through a 4x12. But some of the magic is the open back cab. I feel like $700 might be limiting. If you can get towards $1k lots of options open up. Everyone I've ever known that bought a cheap twin ended up dumping money into it. They tend to get abused because of the weight. Adding a blackface Fender is on my shortlist right now... I've always had access to excellent vintage models. Ex studio partner had a 67 dripedge deluxe & one of my buds has a few others like a great super reverb & non reverb deluxe but he just moved. AC30 is great but a different beast. Everyone thinks clean & chime but plug a Les Paul in and they grind like a Marshall. I had an excellent UK built 30 with blues & sold it. Miss that amp sometimes but it was way too loud for most situations. Are the reissues good amps? See a couple as heads only though it seems no one wants to ship those either and I think the closest I found to me was in Illinois
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Post by gwlee7 on Jul 7, 2021 20:34:04 GMT -6
My parents bought me a Peavey Classic 50 watt amp my high school graduation. Good amp.. I am totally digging my Vibro Champ that I just got. Thing takes pedals like a… ah… well,…. like a champ.
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Post by jmoose on Jul 7, 2021 21:09:55 GMT -6
Are the reissues good amps? See a couple as heads only though it seems no one wants to ship those either and I think the closest I found to me was in Illinois Fender reissues? I would say yes but there's always the camp who says the old stuff is better. But really doesn't matter because chances of finding an original 64 princeton for under a grand are somewhere between slim & none. The DRRI and Twin reissues are solid amps. Like anything else feed em good glass take care of them and they'll last forever. That's probably where I'll wind up myself. If it's a studio only thing and isn't going to get moved & gigged I'd have a grand in my pocket and hunt for a twin in the best condition I can find. They're absurdly heavy & a motivated seller will want to see it go. Guys who dig Fender amps won't have a problem with it and they're good for all kinds of things... synths, baritone guitar... players with giant self aware pedalboards that need massive headroom... I dig Princeton's but as a player they break up too early for me like an overgrown practice amp. Great in the studio to get some grind & push at lower SPL where by the time a twin distorts it'll kill children and small animals. I use humbuckers and pedals.. I need the headroom.
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Post by drbill on Jul 7, 2021 21:19:02 GMT -6
Blackface Princeton or Deluxe!! which model Deluxe? a search on Reverb pulls in all kinds of stuff I loved the sound of the Princetons I've had in the studio. I guess I always thought they were out of my price range. Can they be hooked up to an external cab? single speaker and smaller combos always sound tiny and/or boxy to me when recording. A friend had an old silverface vibrochamp that I used to love for leads, but I can't imagine ever using it for a main guitar track. Oops!! Sorry - I just saw your budget. Real blackfaces (60's) are going to be way out of your price range. Sorry. You might check out the new modeling Fender Deluxe Blackface amp. I think it IS in your range, and a buddy of mine who is a MAJOR amp snob with tons of vintage amps loves it. He bought it for gigging cause it was light, but surprisingly fell in love with it.
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Post by yotonic on Jul 7, 2021 22:08:55 GMT -6
Vintage Super Reverb.
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Post by drumsound on Jul 7, 2021 23:27:50 GMT -6
Most decent amp techs can mod Silverface Fenders 'backward' to blackface specs. There generally seems to be Bassmen around if you look for 'em.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 7, 2021 23:38:05 GMT -6
I recently picked up a 68 Custom Deluxe Reissue. Cool amp. Not super clean though, definitely breaks up. I've got an original 66 Bassman which stays clean longer and gets dirtier when cranked, but it's not very sparkly.
Definitely avoid the Valve Jr. Thing is junk. Mine hasn't even been turned on in a few years.
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Post by anders on Jul 8, 2021 11:05:53 GMT -6
If your goal is having classic Fender Clean, and you don't need a lot of volume, don't underestimate the Champ/VibroChamp either. At lower volume they're quite sparkly. If you belong to the "musssst have blackface" school, the Champ design was unaltered long into the Silverface era. And these can be picked up at a fraction of the price of a decent vintage Princeton Reverb or Deluxe. Into a larger cab it can get quite bassy as well. And when you turn it up, it is a noisy little dude, though it doesn't blow holes through walls like the Twin does.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jul 8, 2021 11:15:59 GMT -6
I'll be the oddball. I prefer(and own) a silverface. But that's because of type of music I like to do. Blackface is much more popular and heard on more records probably, but silvers are more round and mellow. Better for certain genres. A silverface Princeton is a very unique sound and there's nothing better for neck pickup work IMO.
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Post by phdamage on Jul 8, 2021 11:45:23 GMT -6
what's the story with "The Twin" amps with red knobs? have seen conflicting things, but there is one for $400 within a reasonable drive from me.
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Post by jmoose on Jul 8, 2021 12:24:49 GMT -6
what's the story with "The Twin" amps with red knobs? have seen conflicting things, but there is one for $400 within a reasonable drive from me. Those are nicknamed "the evil Twin" and are a different animal then what most people think of as a "classic" Twin like a RI or silverface. Generally not a desirable amp. Red knob Fenders are 80s/early 90s era. The "evil twin" has 2 channels, clean & dirty. Distortion? Kinda sucks but some people like it. Its not like a Marshall or Boogie distortion. General rule of thumb is most 2 channel clean/dirty Fender amps? People leave 'em on the clean side and use pedals. Another downside for the evil twin, at least for guys who dig Fender amps is there's no tremolo circuit. At some point they redesigned the "evil twin" and updated it with more classic cosmetics and IIRC the dirt channel was better. Friend of mine owned one back in the day, I remember digging it. Or at least I liked it more then his JCM 900. The red knob Fenders have some age & mileage on them and (debatable) aren't as robust as the later amps. All PCB construction but not as easy to service as newer amps. The reissues are PCB too but more thought was put into their design and its a much simpler circuit overall. If its $400 its probably priced like that for a reason. I'd expect to pop for a complete retube & given the age? At least a partial recapping and replacement of any resistors that have drifted out of spec. Budget another $400-500 and then? Well maybe you could've picked up something cooler. Personally? I'd rather have a brand new hot rod or blues deluxe then a red knob Fender. Saying that as both a player and studio owner.
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Post by notneeson on Jul 8, 2021 12:30:25 GMT -6
what's the story with "The Twin" amps with red knobs? have seen conflicting things, but there is one for $400 within a reasonable drive from me. I think the real story here is that there are lots of different shades of the Fender tone, setting the tweed stuff aside completely. You'd need to try that red knob to know if it's gonna work for you, is my point, I guess. Personally, I own a '68 Bandmaster Reverb with an up-sized output transformer. It's absolutely great, but very loud if you want a pushed sound. I guess if you do hardcore stuff you'd be used to that. For Silver Face stuff I'd stick to non-master volume. I have had some success in the studio with the River era Twin Reverb II, but it has a rattier top end to my ear. Could be cool if you want that attitude, but not the classic "twinkly" thing, to use your word.
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Post by stratboy on Jul 8, 2021 13:23:03 GMT -6
what's the story with "The Twin" amps with red knobs? have seen conflicting things, but there is one for $400 within a reasonable drive from me. There is a lot of info on red knob fenders online. Check TDPRI and TheGearPage, for example. The general opinion is that they do fender clean really well but don’t break up very nicely. I regularly played through a red knob Super 60 at a rehearsal room we used to use and agree with that opinion. Good pedal platform, though. I’ve done a lot of research on them, as I’d like to have a Fender head to complement my Vox and Marshall. My thinking is that they’re undervalued. I haven’t pulled the trigger yet, so no first hand ownership experience. Read up on them, then decide. $400 for a red knob twin is a good price, btw.
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2021 13:40:24 GMT -6
I recently picked up a 68 Custom Deluxe Reissue. Cool amp. Not super clean though, definitely breaks up. I've got an original 66 Bassman which stays clean longer and gets dirtier when cranked, but it's not very sparkly. Definitely avoid the Valve Jr. Thing is junk. Mine hasn't even been turned on in a few years. I have that same amp. The 68 DRRI is a cool amp. As I understand it from what I've read on TGP, the speaker that comes stock with it is voiced to be relatively inefficient, compared to what comes in the 65 DRRI and some other classic Fender amps. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I happen to really like the breakup on the 68 DRRI, as is. But it'd be a relatively easy thing to swap out for a more efficient/higher wattage speaker to help keep the amp from breaking up as early. That, or just run it into a different cab with such speakers in it. I haven't tried this myself, but I've been curious to give it a go. I waivered back and forth between the 68 DRRI and 65 DRRI when I was looking to pick up a new Fender and I ultimately decided that the 68 spoke to me more. Purists might still prefer the 65 though, as it supposedly more greatly adheres to the original blackface design, whereas the 68 supposedly took a little bit of creative license in it's interpretation of the original. The 68 DRRI has a Bassman-ish tonestack on the "Custom" channel, while the "Vintage" channel is supposed to be close to original, which I think overall makes the amp more versatile. There is also reverb and tremolo on BOTH ("Custom" and "Vintage") channels. I just happen to like the sound of the 68 over the 65, regardless of how closely it may or may not follow the original design.
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