jes
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Posts: 29
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Post by jes on Jul 6, 2021 19:41:02 GMT -6
Greetings. First post here, but longtime musician and audio hack. I've been around other audio forums.
I'm writing because I'm confused about ribbon mics and the impedance from mic pre inputs. I have a Beyer M160 which I love.
This is what the manual to my Great River 500NV says:
"The input load for the microphone and the Hi-Z buffer can be switched from 1200 ohms to 300 ohms. When the button is in the out position, the input load is 1200 ohms. When the button is pushed in, the input load is 300 ohms. Great River Tips: Most microphones will work best with the 1200 setting. Best isn’t always what you want though. With most microphones, the result of using the 300 ohm setting will be a roll off of the lowest frequencies and a tilt upwards of the highs. This effect is highly dependant on the particular microphone, and the only way to know for sure is to try it.
Keep in mind that the impedance change is accomplished by changing the step-up ratio of the input transformer, so a gain change happens as well. Don’t let the volume difference mask the tonal difference when determining your preference.
In general, the best mics to try changing the impedance selection effect on are dynamics and ribbons. Condenser microphones have built in amplifiers, and the usual effect of running them into a lower impedance than they like to see is just a large increase in distortion and lower headroom, with minimal tonal changes."
Well and good. Sounds like I should be using the 300 ohms setting for my Beyer.
But then, here's what AEA has to say about ribbons and impedance:
"The sound and tonality of dynamic microphones like ribbons and moving-coils are directly affected by the impedance of a preamp. The higher the impedance, the better the sound. The RPQ2 boasts an extra high input impedance of 63K Ohms.
Preamps with an impedance of under 10k ohms will limit the lows, highs, and transients of your passive microphones. The RPQ2’s high impedance will reveal your microphone’s true nature– a thick low-end, open top-end, and articulate transient response that you will need to hear to believe. Both condensers and active microphones will also benefit from the RPQ2’s impedance."
Now, they could both be right if that 1200/300 switch references to the impedance of the mics, rather than the preamp inputs. Or this could reflect two different perspectives on impedance, or Neve could have been wrong when they put that switch on their pres (which is, I gather, where the switch on the Great River comes from).
I got a monster rock drum sound running my M160 through the GR with the 300ohms setting, so it doesn't matter all that much. I just want to actually understand the engineering knowledge behind what I'm reading.
Thank you.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 6, 2021 20:53:40 GMT -6
GR seems to refer to the preamp load impedance on the mic. True if gain does not get higher set for 300. 300 is (formerly known as) a setting to make Western Electric 30 ohm mics sound correct.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 6, 2021 21:40:04 GMT -6
The 1200/300 changes the winding configuration on the input transformer primary, which changes the reflected impedance as seen by the mic. This is the input impedance of the pre, and the load seen by the mic (same same).
Better is subjective.
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Post by plinker on Jul 6, 2021 23:17:29 GMT -6
You're right to be a bit confused; the nomenclature of impedance is strange.
The M130 has a 200 ohms output impedance. The rule-of-thumb is that you generally want at least 10x the preamp input impedance of the mic output impedance. You will probably prefer the M130 on the higher GR impedance (1200 ohm). That's a 200-->1200 match...not exactly 10x, but a lot closer than 300 ohms.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 7, 2021 4:22:47 GMT -6
As your literature noted, dynamic mics (ribbons, moving coil) tend to be more sensitive to changes in the load impedance, than a condenser or any active circuit mic would. So, "use your ears," is the advice, like the great sound you found. Seems like the experts have spoken so I just wanted to add this little tidbit of my own.
The same is true with active/passive instruments and active/passive direct boxes.
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jes
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Posts: 29
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Post by jes on Jul 7, 2021 7:15:49 GMT -6
Thanks for all the replies. So, to sum up, it seems from an engineering perspective, AEA is right. From an ears perspective, whatever sounds good is good.
This may be speculation, but I'd love to know: what was the thinking at the time when Neve (or whoever did it first before Neve) put the 300/1200 switch in the circuit?
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Post by svart on Jul 7, 2021 10:58:45 GMT -6
Ok, so it's fairly simple in layman's terms.
Matching a load to a source impedance will maximize *power* transfer and minimize reflections. However, it's relatively inefficient and you lose signal level. If something was designed to work best at this load, then we can assume that it's frequency response is also flattest at this load.
Using a load that's higher in numeric value (less loading) results in increased signal level from the source, but the possibility of reflections (probably not an issue at audio frequencies and normal cable lengths). It's more efficient, but it might change the frequency response of the signal from the source in favor of the low frequencies.
Using a load that's lower in numeric value (more loading) results in decreased signal level from the source and a changed frequency response. Lower frequencies take more energy from the driving components to generate and thus tend to fall in amplitude much more quickly than higher frequencies, which is why you have the reduction in lows. Quite inefficient and should result in increased distortion/harmonic generation.
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Post by christopher on Jul 7, 2021 11:46:12 GMT -6
Just to add on what Svart and others explained very well, mics vary a lot in terms of output impedance at different frequencies. So while 300 ohms may be perfect at a certain frequency, at other frequencies a totally different load would be the ideal on the same mic. Since all mics vary all over the place, it’s recommended to listen and let your ears decide.
As for 63kOhms, I’ve never seen that. Sounds like they are trying to game ohms law. Normally you want to do a power transfer (like Svart said) with low impedance stuff like ribbons, and use the low load setting that sounds good.
It’s confusing, let’s see if I get this right or totally wrong: here’s how I’d explain it.. If you use Ohms law and raise resistance a massive amount, then it can transfer the same voltage but the current required is orders of magnitude less. So by using a massive 63kOhm load, they are making the mic work less and there should be less variance due to frequency (theoretically)
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Post by EmRR on Jul 7, 2021 12:32:01 GMT -6
This may be speculation, but I'd love to know: what was the thinking at the time when Neve (or whoever did it first before Neve) put the 300/1200 switch in the circuit? 30 ohm dynamic mics, of which there were many. The Jensen preamps have a setting for this too, and describe it as such.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 7, 2021 12:37:07 GMT -6
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Post by superwack on Jul 7, 2021 12:43:45 GMT -6
To add to the confusion there are dynamic mics like the SM57 that were introduced when impedance matching was “the thing” so it’s 150 ohm wants to see 150 ohms whereas some want to see 5X their impedance (Beyer for example recommends 1000 ohm impedance for the 88, 201 and 160) whereas others like Audio-Technica ATM250 have an impedance of 600 and want to see 6,000!
I did some messing around with high impedance preamp inputs (30,000) and found, for example, my Beyer M160’s never sounded better but I didn’t like either my 201 or 88 as much as I do through lower impedance pres
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Post by ulriggribbons on Jul 7, 2021 12:52:38 GMT -6
Another item of note(and after a reread of the GR literature in the first post, it states as much , so my post is fluff ). For mic preamps that change the input impedance using an input transformer, there is also a gain shift involved, since the change in primary winding is changing the turns ratio of the transformer, so you have to evaluate "better" in terms of frequency response and gain shift. In application, I always think of the impedance switch on the mic pre as a "how does it make me feel?" switch. You have the right source, you have the mic positioned right, and everything sounds great, as a last check, how does changing the impedance make me feel? $.02
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Post by EmRR on Jul 7, 2021 13:47:47 GMT -6
To add to the confusion there are dynamic mics like the SM57 that were introduced when impedance matching was “the thing” so it’s 150 ohm wants to see 150 ohms whereas some want to see 5X their impedance (Beyer for example recommends 1000 ohm impedance for the 88, 201 and 160) whereas others like Audio-Technica ATM250 have an impedance of 600 and want to see 6,000! I did some messing around with high impedance preamp inputs (30,000) and found, for example, my Beyer M160’s never sounded better but I didn’t like either my 201 or 88 as much as I do through lower impedance pres SM57 is sort of the Western Electric concept/model, expecting a matched load. Almost all old multi-input remote mixers (and Altec 1567A's!) are matching input loads. As the Broadcast News article points out, the classic tube preamp has much higher input Z in most of the range than what you find in transformerless SS, for different reasons than described in 1957 though, now preamps tend to have load resistances in place to fix the relationship. So as you say, my ribbons don't sound as good in my Sytek as they do through some pre-1960 tube pre, as the load is much lighter in the majority of the range than the Sytek, the Sytek kills some lows and highs. If you changed it to a 300 ohm resistive load, it would get very telephon-y. The Sytek may be noisier at same gain for a couple reasons too, although that sounds crazy on the surface. The loading effects on the mic knocks mic level down, requiring more preamp gain, and there's no 'free' transformer gain either. Then consider the pre-1960 thing with transformer taps for 30/150/600. Those are the expected SOURCE impedance to excite the transformer winding for proper transformer response. Besides the change in gain from varying transformer ratio, you change the loading and EQ outcome of the entire system by 'mismatching' the interface. That may be bad, that may be good. You may not actually experience a noticeable gain change, as the loading differences may wash out, and the EQ effect may be so dramatic as to obscure what's left.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 7, 2021 14:27:41 GMT -6
I don't recall the old transformer input in question here, but it gives another illustration.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jul 7, 2021 14:35:30 GMT -6
Doug knows his tube gear. The RCA manuals called for “unloaded” input transformer secondaries. This is one big reason why those old passive ribbons really shine with old tube preamps.
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jes
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by jes on Jul 7, 2021 18:38:52 GMT -6
This has gotten really good. Any thread with a link to an old RCA publication is my kind of thread. Thank you!
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 8, 2021 4:50:17 GMT -6
GR seems to refer to the preamp load impedance on the mic. True if gain does not get higher set for 300. 300 is (formerly known as) a setting to make Western Electric 30 ohm mics sound correct. This is how I have to use my Altec 639a. It just sounds fuller at 300 ohms. It’s a 50 ohm mic I think.
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Post by Omicron9 on Jul 8, 2021 10:39:06 GMT -6
I've always liked variable input impedance options on mic pres. Fascinating thread.
-09
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Post by plinker on Jul 8, 2021 11:21:40 GMT -6
I've always liked variable input impedance options on mic pres. Fascinating thread. -09 Yeah -- I'm learning a bunch. Oh, and he said, "load"!!!
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Post by anders on Jun 1, 2024 8:49:19 GMT -6
Would all this then mean that the 30 Ω setting on a 44bx paired with the 300 Ω input on a 1073 clone would be a better match than a 250 / 1200 combination?
I could of course set myself up with white noise from a speaker and a spectrum analyser plugin and work through all alternatives, but it seems simpler to just ask…
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Post by EmRR on Jun 1, 2024 9:02:26 GMT -6
Would all this then mean that the 30 Ω setting on a 44bx paired with the 300 Ω input on a 1073 clone would be a better match than a 250 / 1200 combination? I could of course set myself up with white noise from a speaker and a spectrum analyser plugin and work through all alternatives, but it seems simpler to just ask… Whichever combo sounds better is better. You’re trading which transformer is doing the most work.
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Post by anders on Jun 1, 2024 9:06:14 GMT -6
Would all this then mean that the 30 Ω setting on a 44bx paired with the 300 Ω input on a 1073 clone would be a better match than a 250 / 1200 combination? I could of course set myself up with white noise from a speaker and a spectrum analyser plugin and work through all alternatives, but it seems simpler to just ask… Whichever combo sounds better is better. You’re trading which transformer is doing the most work. Thanks. I was primarily thinking about going from 1:5 to 1:10.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 1, 2024 13:21:27 GMT -6
I was wondering about 25. Or 6 to 4.
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