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UA-6176
Jun 1, 2021 12:35:13 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 12:35:13 GMT -6
Just received the 6176's (stereo pair) in the post today and tested it out with several mics's, it sounds great but despite lack of options it's not straight forward to dial in. A stark contrast to my Neve Shelford channels which have options galore but takes serious effort to sound bad, as a replacement to my previous post let's go a little more in depth.
- Firstly impedance, this is one of the most important aspects of this channel strip and changes the sound quite drastically. With 500 Ohmz selected one gets that stereotypical fat, thick gooey sound many refer to. I tried both 500 and 2K options with SDC's, hot LDC's / tube mic's and a varied amount of dynamics and the first option didn't lend itself all that well to dynamic mics, it was simply too much. On a fatter sounding LDC the 2K option also served best as it removed the primarily overwhelming and overly "gooey" attributes allowing it to stand forward (with the correct L shelf dialled in). It will always be a relaxed sounding pre-amp but if one is aiming for a more pop (Hi-Fi) orientated sound it's prudent to mess around with the options.
- Gain staging, out of the box the amount of audible hiss was somewhat worrying and the pre-amp section wasn't the cure as specified on other sites. On a hotter LDC for example dropping the mic gain and increasing the output section helped but the 1176 I/O gain staging made the most impact (higher input / lower output) but the effect is cumulative.
- Link function, one of the primary reasons I bought a stereo pair is for the 1176LN as a potential OTB mixing resource in preparation for later expansion. I've heard the 1176LN and personally I couldn't tell the difference, as the channel strip cost is $2815.00 vs. $3250.00 for the 1176LN it's not a bad idea to get some free pre-amps bolted on.
- The EQ function is somewhat lacking but using the LF frequency shelf as opposed to a HPF function did net results. Whilst I would agree with the term musical it also remained rather transparent. In some instances I couldn't really tell it had been "EQ'd". I also tended to drop the 10Khz region by 1.5 / 3dB to avoid excess bite. It will require some post unlike the Shelford which can be fully dialled in before hitting the AD section but the somewhat basic EQ function does help.
- Other functions, it has a -15dB pad / DI impedance options, 48v phantom power and a phase inversion switch (marked by the obvious 0 with a line in it).
- Compressor section, UA suggests a 12:1 ratio and in my experience that just about does it. However I find the 1176LN serves best as a peak limiter used almost in a mastering scenario shaving off at most 1dB worth of gain on average. When hitting stronger passages in a song that will of course rise although it was neither here or there. Personally I prefer a quick attack and longer release to allow the LA-2A lazy opto to to do its magic, to make sure I wasn't clipping the converters input section I run a gain analysis plugin on the DAW side and measured through UA's console. Everything looked good..
I did some stereo mic'ing, played everything back through my monitors on a simple mix and in context the 6176 almost sounded like a finished product straight after recording. I did some surgical EQ to clean up the mid range but it didn't take long and as this isn't the first time I've used or owned a 6176 I knew exactly what to look for. The DI function sounds great when linked up to a Suhr Reactive load and is a very much a standout function that even the Shelford couldn't quite match.
If one would like to know how it compares to my Shelford? Well simply put they each do their own thing, it's far easier to get more aggressive modern vibes from the Shelford and when mic'ing up my Rhodes colossus helped get the message across. For more acoustic / laid back pop (like Coldplay) I think the 6176 will definitely serve its purpose. Frankly I'm glad to have both tools at my disposal..
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 1, 2021 13:04:24 GMT -6
I've found that with my LA610 gain staging can be a little tricky. Pushing the input can make things sound a bit wholly in the low end, pushing the output can cause some distortion, pushing the compressor can give some sweet saturation. The trick, like you said, is knowing how to play with all those elements.
For a cleaner signal I back down on the input and keep a moderate output. For a creamy saturated tone I push the input and adjust the output to taste, while pushing the compressor.
Try running synths and bass through the DI. It'll make you smile.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 13:28:48 GMT -6
Yeah, it's a bit of a sound sculpting box and it can do everything from grandiose high fidelity to grungey vintage but it does require a lot of attention per mic. It won't replace my Shelford but neither will the Shelford replace it, they are two sides of a spectrum that both complement each other. If I had to choose I'm not sure I could..
Will definitely try the DI function on bass.
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Post by jmoose on Jun 1, 2021 14:14:37 GMT -6
Friend of mine has had a pair of 6176 for years, I've used 'em on lots of things. Its mostly a thick, gooey preamp. Doesn't work for everything but when its on point its really on.
They can be kinda finicky to dial in. Probably the easiest way & most useful knob on the box is the compressor bypass. Above that is the VU selector knob... usually start out with the compressor bypassed and watching VU levels for the preamp side... get the preamp & EQ dialed and then add 1176 to taste.
Don't forget you can split 'em apart and use the preamp and 1176 on two different sources. Very, very handy! And yes the DI is rad!
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Post by damoongo on Jun 5, 2021 22:00:23 GMT -6
Next, there's an I/O switch that makes everything sound boxy and muddy if used with certain mics. Dude. That's the phase invert switch. Of course it will sound boxy if you make it out of phase with the live source (your voice? in headphones?).
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 0:21:46 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by theshea on Jun 6, 2021 0:21:46 GMT -6
i can confirm that switching ohm gives different results on my la610, just like on yours. one always sounds „better“. thats ALWAYS the first thing i am setting when using my la610. whereas on my AML1073ez i ALWAYS use 1200 ohm, as 300 ohm gives me to much hiss.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 10:13:56 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 10:13:56 GMT -6
Dude. That's the phase invert switch. Of course it will sound boxy if you make it out of phase with the live source (your voice? in headphones?). Where did I say it wasn't "dude"? I read multiple threads throughout the interwebz and someone described it as having a "boxy midrange" on that other site. The only time I found it to be boxy per se was when the phase invert (or I/O) was switched on.. Apologies if I didn't make that clear. Must admit in context it doesn't read right though, I was trying to shorten the post (I'll clear it up). Edit: Updated the review, that's why I tried to run it short hand (because it's long) but obviously it didn't make sense in context. Sorry but this still makes no sense. Phase invert literally inverts the waveform and that is all. On it's own (ie. on a single source) it can't make anything sound "boxy" or different in any way. These kinds of mistakes brings your methods and competence into question, and hence casts doubt on the other aspects of your review of a product that has been around for 20 years or so. (Not trying to pick a fight, just didn't want people out there thinking that a phase switch can shape their tone!)
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 10:25:50 GMT -6
Post by bgrotto on Jun 6, 2021 10:25:50 GMT -6
6176 (and the various 'channel strip' style boxes from UA) indeed have some unusual gain structures. Even the 610 runs a bit weird, and it's really easy to overload into not-particularly-good-sounding distortion.
Add to that the fact that the compressor side doesn't sound or behave much like an 1176, and you have a recipe for confusion.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 10:35:10 GMT -6
Post by Guitar on Jun 6, 2021 10:35:10 GMT -6
Miss my 610. Miss my 110 just as much. Love the Z switches on these.
Hate to add to the heat, but a polarity switch is audible on some sources, I'll give bass guitar as an example. While it's in your hands, at least, haven't tested this any other way. I'm not going to put an adjective on it like "muddy" or something, but hey, it's subjective, call it whatever you like.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 10:56:22 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 10:56:22 GMT -6
Sorry but this still makes no sense. Phase invert literally inverts the waveform and that is all. On it's own (ie. on a single source) it can't make anything sound "boxy" or different in any way. These kinds of mistakes brings your methods and competence into question, and hence casts doubt on the other aspects of your review of a product that has been around for 20 years or so. (Not trying to pick a fight, just didn't want people out there thinking that a phase switch can shape their tone!) I'll happily record a clip and show you first hand, also I couldn't care less about your thoughts on competence or methodology. Do you have a 6176 or even a 610-B? I'm not saying the I/O switch sounds good or it's a "tonal shaping method" but if it IS switched on it does some odd stuff. Yes. I have a pair. Phase invert is LITERALLY just inverting the wave form + for -. This will NOT impact the "tone" of a single source sound. What you may experience, if you are monitoring your voice through headphones for example, is that in one position in phase cancels some of the acoustic sound of your voice resonating in your head when blended with the signal you are monitoring in your headphones (or speakers for that matter).
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 11:01:28 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 11:01:28 GMT -6
Hate to add to the heat, but a polarity switch is audible on some sources, I'll give bass guitar as an example. While it's in your hands, at least, haven't tested this any other way. I'm not going to put an adjective on it like "muddy" or something, but hey, it's subjective, call it whatever you like. This would only be a result of how low frequencies respond in your room. No different than swapping the + and - leads from your power amp to your speakers. In your case if your bass is interacting with other low frequency information in a mix (kick or sub synth etc), then flipping will have an impact. But it will be different for every note you play because the timing of your notes will be slightly different each bar, and thus interact differently with the other low freq material in the recording.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 11:14:17 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 11:14:17 GMT -6
I'll happily record a clip and show you first hand, also I couldn't care less about your thoughts on competence or methodology. Do you have a 6176 or even a 610-B? I'm not saying the I/O switch sounds good or it's a "tonal shaping method" but if it IS switched on it does some odd stuff. Yes. I have a pair. Phase invert is LITERALLY just inverting the wave form + for -. This will NOT impact the "tone" of a single source sound. What you may experience, if you are monitoring your voice through headphones for example, is that in one position in phase cancels some of the acoustic sound of your voice resonating in your head when blended with the signal you are monitoring in your headphones (or speakers for that matter). I know what it does, I was using it with an acoustic and there's a phase inverter on my Shelford.. Guess what the Shelford does when I invert the phase on a single source? Nothing.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 11:20:10 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 11:20:10 GMT -6
Yes. I have a pair. Phase invert is LITERALLY just inverting the wave form + for -. This will NOT impact the "tone" of a single source sound. What you may experience, if you are monitoring your voice through headphones for example, is that in one position in phase cancels some of the acoustic sound of your voice resonating in your head when blended with the signal you are monitoring in your headphones (or speakers for that matter). I know what it does, I was using it with an acoustic and there's a phase inverter on my Shelford.. Guess what the Shelford does when I invert the phase? Nothing. Well, it shouldn't do nothing. It should invert the polarity. Just like the 6176 does. Open it up and look! It's literally a two position switch that swaps the hot and cold wires. It's that simple. * Huge Shadow fan by the way. Especially the early Orson Wells episodes. See, we're not that different!
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 11:25:24 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 11:25:24 GMT -6
I know what it does, I was using it with an acoustic and there's a phase inverter on my Shelford.. Guess what the Shelford does when I invert the phase? Nothing. Well, it shouldn't do nothing. It should invert the polarity. Just like the 6176 does. Open it up and look! It's literally a two position switch that swaps the hot and cold wires. It's that simple. * Huge Shadow fan by the way. Especially the early Orson Wells episodes. See, we're not that different! You know I didn't mean it that way, the Shelford doesn't change the sound of instrument when flipping between phase because it is a single source. I do honestly understand multi-mic'ing.. I've been an audio programmer for 15 years and I've been doing audio engineering for nearly 25, seems I really did just have a dumb moment and honestly I don't know what's going on.. I'll find out though. Also it's still putting out excess hiss, I noticed it more today than I did the other.. Tubes?! (not related to the other issue obviously).. Also I should probably stop posting until I've recovered.. Anyway, cheers again.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 11:33:38 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Tbone81 on Jun 6, 2021 11:33:38 GMT -6
Well, it shouldn't do nothing. It should invert the polarity. Just like the 6176 does. Open it up and look! It's literally a two position switch that swaps the hot and cold wires. It's that simple. * Huge Shadow fan by the way. Especially the early Orson Wells episodes. See, we're not that different! You know I didn't mean it that way, the Shelford doesn't change the sound of instrument when flipping between phase because it is a single source. I do honestly understand multi-mic'ing.. I've been an audio programmer for 15 years and I've been doing audio engineering for nearly 25, seems I really did just have a dumb moment and honestly I don't know what's going on.. I'll find out though. Also it's still putting out excess hiss, I noticed it more today than I did the other.. Tubes?! (not related to the other issue obviously).. The hiss is (probably) normal. It’s not the quietest of preamps. One trick to keep the hiss at bay is to set your input at a moderate level, and keep the output gain lower than you’d normally like. Then patch it into another hardware piece, something with lots of clean gain to make up the difference.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 6, 2021 11:43:16 GMT -6
Hate to add to the heat, but a polarity switch is audible on some sources, I'll give bass guitar as an example. While it's in your hands, at least, haven't tested this any other way. I'm not going to put an adjective on it like "muddy" or something, but hey, it's subjective, call it whatever you like. This would only be a result of how low frequencies respond in your room. No different than swapping the + and - leads from your power amp to your speakers. In your case if your bass is interacting with other low frequency information in a mix (kick or sub synth etc), then flipping will have an impact. But it will be different for every note you play because the timing of your notes will be slightly different each bar, and thus interact differently with the other low freq material in the recording. You're probably right about the room modes. I should try it in headphones and see what I find.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 11:55:33 GMT -6
This would only be a result of how low frequencies respond in your room. No different than swapping the + and - leads from your power amp to your speakers. In your case if your bass is interacting with other low frequency information in a mix (kick or sub synth etc), then flipping will have an impact. But it will be different for every note you play because the timing of your notes will be slightly different each bar, and thus interact differently with the other low freq material in the recording. You're probably right about the room modes. I should try it in headphones and see what I find. Yeahh, I think I've done something rather silly here. I'm not exactly a quiet guitar player and my room treatment isn't coming until the end of this month (I got rid of my old stuff as it was looking rather shoddy). Which is fine, I've recorded in less than ideal rooms before / on location and with a supercardioid dynamic you can kinda get away with it.. I'm using my open back headphones that really don't stop much sound getting in, I do have some closed for tracking but anyway.. I think I've moved location, flipped the phase, hit record, moved to another location and I could hear the room, playback through the console and acoustic.. Soo, derp face. Apologies everyone, then again I was on a tracking session with a long term engineer and we were arguing over the sound of an EQ that wasn't even switched on. It's not my first daft mistake and I doubt it'll be my last, again apologies. Edit: Cleaned up my posts to keep this thread flowing, it's all in damoongo's quotes for posterity anyway.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 17:50:38 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 17:50:38 GMT -6
You know I didn't mean it that way, the Shelford doesn't change the sound of instrument when flipping between phase because it is a single source. I do honestly understand multi-mic'ing.. I've been an audio programmer for 15 years and I've been doing audio engineering for nearly 25, seems I really did just have a dumb moment and honestly I don't know what's going on.. I'll find out though. Also it's still putting out excess hiss, I noticed it more today than I did the other.. Tubes?! (not related to the other issue obviously).. The hiss is (probably) normal. It’s not the quietest of preamps. One trick to keep the hiss at bay is to set your input at a moderate level, and keep the output gain lower than you’d normally like. Then patch it into another hardware piece, something with lots of clean gain to make up the difference. Wow. I don't want to be the police here today, but this is only ADDING the noise from your second box to the existing noise of the 6176. Unless you are using tape and need to get the levels up before tape, then it would be LESS noisy to record it and turn it up in the DAW. What's going on around here?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 6, 2021 18:18:45 GMT -6
The hiss is (probably) normal. It’s not the quietest of preamps. One trick to keep the hiss at bay is to set your input at a moderate level, and keep the output gain lower than you’d normally like. Then patch it into another hardware piece, something with lots of clean gain to make up the difference. Wow. I don't want to be the police here today, but this is only ADDING the noise from your second box to the existing noise of the 6176. Unless you are using tape and need to get the levels up before tape, then it would be LESS noisy to record it and turn it up in the DAW. What's going on around here? Sure, using digital gain is a valid way of doing it. But so is my way. The output stage of the 610 adds its own measure of noise (specifically a “hiss”). Using my vp28’s or even my Aphex 651 (no GR, make up gain only) to add some volume doesn’t introduce any audible noise, and no audible “hiss”. I don’t get what the big deal is. It’s simple gain staging. When using a console you’re going through way more gain stages then what I suggested and it’s easy enough to do, on any decent console, without adding any meaningful noise. I listen to my ears, and my ears tell me it sounds great that way.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 18:32:24 GMT -6
Post by Guitar on Jun 6, 2021 18:32:24 GMT -6
I haven't studies Friis formulas lately but I think Tbone is not insane, sounds reasonable.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 18:41:57 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 18:41:57 GMT -6
Wow. I don't want to be the police here today, but this is only ADDING the noise from your second box to the existing noise of the 6176. Unless you are using tape and need to get the levels up before tape, then it would be LESS noisy to record it and turn it up in the DAW. What's going on around here? Sure, using digital gain is a valid way of doing it. But so is my way. The output stage of the 610 adds its own measure of noise (specifically a “hiss”). Using my vp28’s or even my Aphex 651 (no GR, make up gain only) to add some volume doesn’t introduce any audible noise, and no audible “hiss”. I don’t get what the big deal is. It’s simple gain staging. When using a console you’re going through way more gain stages then what I suggested and it’s easy enough to do, on any decent console, without adding any meaningful noise. I listen to my ears, and my ears tell me it sounds great that way. Just wait... You recommended to Zarconis to ADD a device that introduces more noise to HELP with a noisy device. This does not make any sense no matter how many times you say it. Turning something down and then turning it up again (with another analog device) is NOT good gain staging as far as getting best signal to noise (which was Zarconis's issue with the 6176). You may wish to do things like that on a console (or elsewhere) to hit certain parts of the signal path hard for cool coloration etc, but not for minimum signal to noise, which was the Zarconis's issue here.
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Post by ragan on Jun 6, 2021 18:50:19 GMT -6
Sure, using digital gain is a valid way of doing it. But so is my way. The output stage of the 610 adds its own measure of noise (specifically a “hiss”). Using my vp28’s or even my Aphex 651 (no GR, make up gain only) to add some volume doesn’t introduce any audible noise, and no audible “hiss”. I don’t get what the big deal is. It’s simple gain staging. When using a console you’re going through way more gain stages then what I suggested and it’s easy enough to do, on any decent console, without adding any meaningful noise. I listen to my ears, and my ears tell me it sounds great that way. Just wait... You recommended to Zarconis to ADD a device that introduces more noise to HELP with a noisy device. This does not make any sense no matter how many times you say it. Turning something down and then turning it up again (with another analog device) is NOT good gain staging as far as getting best signal to noise (which was Zarconis's issue with the 6176). You may wish to do things like that on a console (or elsewhere) to hit certain parts of the signal path hard for cool coloration etc, but not for minimum signal to noise, which was the Zarconis's issue here. If the output stage of the 6176 is noisy and instead of using that you use a quieter gain stage, you’re getting less noise. You can do it penalty-free in a DAW but maybe he doesn’t want to. Maybe there are further analog pieces in the chain that you want to include and you want to hit them at a certain level. Lots of ways to skin the cat. No need for assumptions or excess snark.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 19:30:36 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 19:30:36 GMT -6
Just wait... You recommended to Zarconis to ADD a device that introduces more noise to HELP with a noisy device. This does not make any sense no matter how many times you say it. Turning something down and then turning it up again (with another analog device) is NOT good gain staging as far as getting best signal to noise (which was Zarconis's issue with the 6176). You may wish to do things like that on a console (or elsewhere) to hit certain parts of the signal path hard for cool coloration etc, but not for minimum signal to noise, which was the Zarconis's issue here. If the output stage of the 6176 is noisy and instead of using that you use a quieter gain stage, you’re getting less noise. You can do it penalty-free in a DAW but maybe he doesn’t want to. Maybe there are further analog pieces in the chain that you want to include and you want to hit them at a certain level. Lots of ways to skin the cat. No need for assumptions or excess snark. VERY good point about possibly wanting to hit other analog later in the chain. But the output amp of an 1176 (or 6176) is not something you can "not use" easily. And turning down the output (as suggested) will in fact worsen the signal to noise. That "output" attenuator is actually at the output of the preamp stage and feeds the fixed gain output amp. So you will be hearing more of the output amps noise floor compared to signal as you turn the "output" knob down. So turning the output down and adding another analog device to make up the gain actually actually adds more noise in two ways, which is the exact opposite of what the OP wanted to do. Anyway, snarking down now... Sorry if I was coming off dickish.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 19:38:28 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Tbone81 on Jun 6, 2021 19:38:28 GMT -6
Sure, using digital gain is a valid way of doing it. But so is my way. The output stage of the 610 adds its own measure of noise (specifically a “hiss”). Using my vp28’s or even my Aphex 651 (no GR, make up gain only) to add some volume doesn’t introduce any audible noise, and no audible “hiss”. I don’t get what the big deal is. It’s simple gain staging. When using a console you’re going through way more gain stages then what I suggested and it’s easy enough to do, on any decent console, without adding any meaningful noise. I listen to my ears, and my ears tell me it sounds great that way. Just wait... You recommended to Zarconis to ADD a device that introduces more noise to HELP with a noisy device. This does not make any sense no matter how many times you say it. Turning something down and then turning it up again (with another analog device) is NOT good gain staging as far as getting best signal to noise (which was Zarconis's issue with the 6176). You may wish to do things like that on a console (or elsewhere) to hit certain parts of the signal path hard for cool coloration etc, but not for minimum signal to noise, which was the Zarconis's issue here. This probably isn’t worth my time to reply...you seem way to eager to argue, but whatever...here it is. The 610 is a finnicky pre, I mean that’s kinda the point of this thread. It can sound great but can also be noisy and tricky to gain stage right. Now not every analog piece has the same noise floor. Or the same quality of noise. And, my ears tell me that on most pieces noise doesn’t increase in a linear fashion. If I’m wrong here someone smarter than I can correct me. But my point is that some pieces stay really quiet all the way through out their range, from high to low gain. Other analog pieces distort heavily when pushed, and still others get noisy. There’s a sweet spot on most pieces of gear. That sweet spot is often subjective and/or relative to what you’re trying to achieve. But on the 610 (La610/6176 etc) the output gain stage definitely has a sweet spot. At a certain point it gets much noisier. (Same can be said for its input too). If you keep the output in the sweet spot, and use another analog gain stage, that has a way quieter close floor, to boost the signal, you can get a quieter recording. That’s what gain staging is. Manipulating gain to get your desired outcome, often a cleaner/quieter/less noisy signal. But yes, sometimes a more distorted signal is desirable. Whatever floats your boat.
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 19:44:32 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Tbone81 on Jun 6, 2021 19:44:32 GMT -6
If the output stage of the 6176 is noisy and instead of using that you use a quieter gain stage, you’re getting less noise. You can do it penalty-free in a DAW but maybe he doesn’t want to. Maybe there are further analog pieces in the chain that you want to include and you want to hit them at a certain level. Lots of ways to skin the cat. No need for assumptions or excess snark. VERY good point about possibly wanting to hit other analog later in the chain. But the output amp of an 1176 (or 6176) is not something you can "not use" easily. And turning down the output (as suggested) will in fact worsen the signal to noise. That "output" attenuator is actually at the output of the preamp stage and feeds the fixed gain output amp. So you will be hearing more of the output amps noise floor compared to signal as you turn the "output" knob down. So turning the output down and adding another analog device to make up the gain actually actually adds more noise in two ways, which is the exact opposite of what the OP wanted to do. Anyway, snarking down now... Sorry if I was coming off dickish. Maybe the 6176 has a different topography than the LA610, but the output is an active gain stage, not a passive attenuator. It’s was either in the manual that I read that or someone from UA explained it to me years ago. I don’t remember.
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