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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 19:54:27 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 19:54:27 GMT -6
Just wait... You recommended to Zarconis to ADD a device that introduces more noise to HELP with a noisy device. This does not make any sense no matter how many times you say it. Turning something down and then turning it up again (with another analog device) is NOT good gain staging as far as getting best signal to noise (which was Zarconis's issue with the 6176). You may wish to do things like that on a console (or elsewhere) to hit certain parts of the signal path hard for cool coloration etc, but not for minimum signal to noise, which was the Zarconis's issue here. This probably isn’t worth my time to reply...you seem way to eager to argue, but whatever...here it is. The 610 is a finnicky pre, I mean that’s kinda the point of this thread. It can sound great but can also be noisy and tricky to gain stage right. Now not every analog piece has the same noise floor. Or the same quality of noise. And, my ears tell me that on most pieces noise doesn’t increase in a linear fashion. If I’m wrong here someone smarter than I can correct me. But my point is that some pieces stay really quiet all the way through out their range, from high to low gain. Other analog pieces distort heavily when pushed, and still others get noisy. There’s a sweet spot on most pieces of gear. That sweet spot is often subjective and/or relative to what you’re trying to achieve. But on the 610 (La610/6176 etc) the output gain stage definitely has a sweet spot. At a certain point it gets much noisier. (Same can be said for its input too). If you keep the output in the sweet spot, and use another analog gain stage, that has a way quieter close floor, to boost the signal, you can get a quieter recording. That’s what gain staging is. Manipulating gain to get your desired outcome, often a cleaner/quieter/less noisy signal. But yes, sometimes a more distorted signal is desirable. Whatever floats your boat. You don't have control of the output stage in an 1176/6176 etc. It's fixed. And it's after the "output" attenuator (Which attenuates the output of the input stage on it's way to the output amp.) So you are by definition getting more noise from the output amp in your signal as you turn that output knob down. And then adding the noise of another device to get the level back up. But this is fine if it sounds good to you! It just won't help someone looking for less noise. Good gain staging of the preamp into the input stage of the 1176 is where there are S/N gains to be made. |
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 20:12:33 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ragan on Jun 6, 2021 20:12:33 GMT -6
If the output stage of the 6176 is noisy and instead of using that you use a quieter gain stage, you’re getting less noise. You can do it penalty-free in a DAW but maybe he doesn’t want to. Maybe there are further analog pieces in the chain that you want to include and you want to hit them at a certain level. Lots of ways to skin the cat. No need for assumptions or excess snark. VERY good point about possibly wanting to hit other analog later in the chain. But the output amp of an 1176 (or 6176) is not something you can "not use" easily. And turning down the output (as suggested) will in fact worsen the signal to noise. That "output" attenuator is actually at the output of the preamp stage and feeds the fixed gain output amp. So you will be hearing more of the output amps noise floor compared to signal as you turn the "output" knob down. So turning the output down and adding another analog device to make up the gain actually actually adds more noise in two ways, which is the exact opposite of what the OP wanted to do. Anyway, snarking down now... Sorry if I was coming off dickish. I don’t know if turning down the output stage on a 6176 will “worsen the noise” or not. I’m not looking at the schematic and don’t care that much. The claim was made that the output stage was noisy in and of itself. My comment was contingent on that being true. So again, if you’ve got a noisy output stage and you use a quieter gain stage instead, you’ll have less noise. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 20:25:00 GMT -6
I messed about with it some more and got the noise down.. Anyway it's a good channels strip, so urr cool.. Cool..
*Slides out of the thread like a Shadow*..
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 20:32:31 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 20:32:31 GMT -6
VERY good point about possibly wanting to hit other analog later in the chain. But the output amp of an 1176 (or 6176) is not something you can "not use" easily. And turning down the output (as suggested) will in fact worsen the signal to noise. That "output" attenuator is actually at the output of the preamp stage and feeds the fixed gain output amp. So you will be hearing more of the output amps noise floor compared to signal as you turn the "output" knob down. So turning the output down and adding another analog device to make up the gain actually actually adds more noise in two ways, which is the exact opposite of what the OP wanted to do. Anyway, snarking down now... Sorry if I was coming off dickish. I don’t know if turning down the output stage on a 6176 will “worsen the noise” or not. I’m not looking at the schematic and don’t care that much. The claim was made that the output stage was noisy in and of itself. My comment was contingent on that being true. So again, if you’ve got a noisy output stage and you use a quieter gain stage instead, you’ll have less noise. Yes. As sure as the sun rises, substituting a noisy output stage for a quieter one will result in less noise. But this is not something that can be done in the case of an 1176/6176 (without heavy modification). So, as I said, you will be adding noise (in two ways) by turning down the output and adding a second analog piece as makeup gain as suggested. The opposite of what the OP desires. |
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 20:38:41 GMT -6
Post by ragan on Jun 6, 2021 20:38:41 GMT -6
I don’t know if turning down the output stage on a 6176 will “worsen the noise” or not. I’m not looking at the schematic and don’t care that much. The claim was made that the output stage was noisy in and of itself. My comment was contingent on that being true. So again, if you’ve got a noisy output stage and you use a quieter gain stage instead, you’ll have less noise. Yes. As sure as the sun rises, substituting a noisy output stage for a quieter one will result in less noise. But this is not something that can be done in the case of an 1176/6176 (without heavy modification). So, as I said, you will be adding noise (in two ways) by turning down the output and adding a second analog piece as makeup gain as suggested. The opposite of what the OP desires. I don't know if this (emphasis mine) is sarcasm or a typo, but either way, if the output stage of the OPs 6176 isn't actually contributing noise, then yes, crank that baby wide open. If it is contributing noise, using other, quieter gain (if you want to stay analog) could be better. If you don't want/need to stay in the analog domain, just gain it up in the DAW. |
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 20:46:00 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 20:46:00 GMT -6
I messed about with it some more and got the noise down.. Anyway it's a good channels strip, so urr cool.. Cool.. *Slides out of the thread like a Shadow*.. Ok Awesome. It's a pretty cool box once you get to know it. And like Tbone81 said, put some synths through the DI's and you will smile. And sorry if I was being a hard ass earlier. "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men..." |
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UA-6176
Jun 6, 2021 20:49:32 GMT -6
Post by damoongo on Jun 6, 2021 20:49:32 GMT -6
Yes. As sure as the sun rises, substituting a noisy output stage for a quieter one will result in less noise. But this is not something that can be done in the case of an 1176/6176 (without heavy modification). So, as I said, you will be adding noise (in two ways) by turning down the output and adding a second analog piece as makeup gain as suggested. The opposite of what the OP desires. I don't know if this (emphasis mine) is sarcasm or a typo, but either way, if the output stage of the OPs 6176 isn't actually contributing noise, then yes, crank that baby wide open. If it is contributing noise, using other, quieter gain (if you want to stay analog) could be better. If you don't want/need to stay in the analog domain, just gain it up in the DAW. Ha! Yeah, I guess I could have said "swapping out". Point being, no sane person would argue with your point that using a quieter output stage will be quieter! But you can't do that in this case because you have no control over the output stage. you only have control of how much you feed to it from the output of the input stage. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 7, 2021 21:02:51 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Jun 8, 2021 10:20:55 GMT -6
Anybody expect me to jump in here and shill for Audioscape? Ok, you kinda know me. The 610 architecture is cool. But have you heard the V108? Same kind of MOJO, just super-sized for those who like their tones PHAT! And run that sucker into an audioscape 76F and you'll feel the Putnam Senior vibes. I say all that with incredible respect, of course. And no disrespect towards current UA, who remain heroes in the audio gear world. The secret to the V108 is reaching the barely breaking up stage. It thickens into ooey gooey audio syrup, like you hear in the V-Comp! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 10:32:16 GMT -6
Anybody expect me to jump in here and shill for Audioscape? Ok, you kinda know me. The 610 architecture is cool. But have you heard the V108? Same kind of MOJO, just super-sized for those who like their tones PHAT! And run that sucker into an audioscape 76F and you'll feel the Putnam Senior vibes. I say all that with incredible respect, of course. And no disrespect towards current UA, who remain heroes in the audio gear world. The secret to the V108 is reaching the barely breaking up stage. It thickens into ooey gooey audio syrup, like you hear in the V-Comp! Bit late for that, I've already bought the 6176  .. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 8, 2021 10:45:51 GMT -6
Anybody expect me to jump in here and shill for Audioscape? Ok, you kinda know me. The 610 architecture is cool. But have you heard the V108? Same kind of MOJO, just super-sized for those who like their tones PHAT! And run that sucker into an audioscape 76F and you'll feel the Putnam Senior vibes. I say all that with incredible respect, of course. And no disrespect towards current UA, who remain heroes in the audio gear world. The secret to the V108 is reaching the barely breaking up stage. It thickens into ooey gooey audio syrup, like you hear in the V-Comp! Thats interesting that you describe a solid state pre in those terms. If I didn’t have too many Pres already I’d check them out |
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Post by Ward on Jun 8, 2021 17:05:23 GMT -6
Thats interesting that you describe a solid state pre in those terms. If I didn’t have too many Pres already I’d check them out IKR?? I would never have thought that possible either, yet here we are. I have about a week's worth of stuff to catch up on, then I'm going to get on to doing up some demo vids and tutorials on some pieces. |
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UA-6176
Jun 8, 2021 17:12:21 GMT -6
Post by Ward on Jun 8, 2021 17:12:21 GMT -6
Anybody expect me to jump in here and shill for Audioscape? Ok, you kinda know me. The 610 architecture is cool. But have you heard the V108? Same kind of MOJO, just super-sized for those who like their tones PHAT! And run that sucker into an audioscape 76F and you'll feel the Putnam Senior vibes. I say all that with incredible respect, of course. And no disrespect towards current UA, who remain heroes in the audio gear world. The secret to the V108 is reaching the barely breaking up stage. It thickens into ooey gooey audio syrup, like you hear in the V-Comp! Bit late for that, I've already bought the 6176 .. Should you come to change your mind and sell it, just pointing out other options! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 18:05:07 GMT -6
Bit late for that, I've already bought the 6176 .. Should you come to change your mind and sell it, just pointing out other options! No probs, I am going to give the 6176 its fair due's this time around and I've been messing around with it since purchase.. Of course one's opinion changes and I still prefer my Shelford channels by quite a bit on average (dependant on task), issue is it's not like the Shelford can't do harmonically gritty either it just does it with far less noise. Plus the EQ section is miles in front.. Although it's a $4700.00 channel strip and in comparison the 6176 actually seems like "good value".. The trick is to ask me again in a month or two and see if it's still here. |
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