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Post by drbill on May 25, 2021 14:00:31 GMT -6
Just an attempt at some light humor: Let's ask the experts! That was awesomeI know....right?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 25, 2021 14:11:26 GMT -6
Just an attempt at some light humor: Let's ask the experts! ‘Expert’ Village always seemed to produce articles by amateurs. Now if you want some real advice on how to start a recording studio this is IT! Shout out to Benson Amps! That's my college roommate/past bandmate. Chris knows his stuff.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 14:16:59 GMT -6
Just an attempt at some light humor: Let's ask the experts! ‘Expert’ Village always seemed to produce articles by amateurs. Now if you want some real advice on how to start a recording studio this is IT! That's not a good video to sip a cuppa with, when he said "I like the hiss".. HAHA.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 25, 2021 18:45:24 GMT -6
‘Expert’ Village always seemed to produce articles by amateurs. Now if you want some real advice on how to start a recording studio this is IT! Shout out to Benson Amps! That's my college roommate/past bandmate. Chris knows his stuff. Chris makes great stuff! Nice guy too. We have some mutual friends. Are you in Portland too?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 25, 2021 18:49:30 GMT -6
Shout out to Benson Amps! That's my college roommate/past bandmate. Chris knows his stuff. Chris makes great stuff! Nice guy too. We have some mutual friends. Are you in Portland too? I went to Austin, he went to Portland. Chris and his (now) wife and I all met at college in PA. She used to make jewelry and sell it at our shows. Good people. She’s from Portland originally hence the Benson migration west.
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Post by bgrotto on May 25, 2021 19:08:06 GMT -6
Isn't it a bit silly to be precise in that way? 93%....how does he calculate that? Why not 97% or 78%? I absolutely believe that HW matters to him and that the gear he uses sounds better to him than the SW alternatives. Maybe it's faster as well? Maybe it's more fun to use? But putting a percentage on the quality change and using math to "prove" the difference makes no sense to me since it's super subjective and impossible to calculate. Maybe he is justifying higher prices by telling people that his hardware is that much better than software alternatives. Not sure if you’ve had the opportunity to work with Brian, but fwiw, I’d like to offer that in my experience he justifies his prices (which, btw, aren’t all that high) with his excellent CV and rather exceptional mastering work.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 25, 2021 19:50:42 GMT -6
Maybe he is justifying higher prices by telling people that his hardware is that much better than software alternatives. Not sure if you’ve had the opportunity to work with Brian, but fwiw, I’d like to offer that in my experience he justifies his prices (which, btw, aren’t all that high) with his excellent CV and rather exceptional mastering work. Haven't worked with him, but do know he does good work. Definitely not a knock on that. And, he seems to not be an asshole based on posts of his that I've seen. But, I do think the claim that ITB is only 75% as good as OTB when chaining 4 plugs is junk. The numbers game is silly. Personally, my ITB mixes are better that OTB, and I've mixed with a pretty decent collection of hardware in the past. Obviously, you must be satisfied ITB too.
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Post by bgrotto on May 25, 2021 21:33:33 GMT -6
Not sure if you’ve had the opportunity to work with Brian, but fwiw, I’d like to offer that in my experience he justifies his prices (which, btw, aren’t all that high) with his excellent CV and rather exceptional mastering work. Haven't worked with him, but do know he does good work. Definitely not a knock on that. And, he seems to not be an asshole based on posts of his that I've seen. But, I do think the claim that ITB is only 75% as good as OTB when chaining 4 plugs is junk. The numbers game is silly. Personally, my ITB mixes are better that OTB, and I've mixed with a pretty decent collection of hardware in the past. Obviously, you must be satisfied ITB too. Last fully analog mix (including to / from tape) I did was back in 2016 ( you can listen here if anyone is curious...i know there are some country fans on this board), and it came out well, but yeah, I think it would have been better still if I had some of my ITB tools (and some automation) available. Not to mention, another couple of days...haha...we mixed this one kinda quick! These days I mix hybrid, myself, and definitely prefer hardware in most cases to software, but my workflow demands a lot of recall and a lot of switching between projects, so plugs are a big part things here. But considering the typical mastering workflow, I would expect a serious mastering studio to use primarily hardware, and damned good (read: expensive...haha) hardware at that!
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Post by trakworxmastering on May 27, 2021 11:16:12 GMT -6
I didn't read this entire thread, as it's pretty long, as analog vs digital threads usually are, but my 2 cents:
Lucey's equation is an interesting thought experiment. I'm not sure I agree that the percentages should be added up that way, but maybe...
A point that I don't see brought up very often is that even if plugins are 100% accurate they still won't give you the I/O interactions found in a carefully constructed analog mastering chain. That's where some of the tastiest flavor can come from.
Not that you can't do great work ITB, but it won't be the same great work. There can be more than one kind of great outcome though...
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 27, 2021 12:34:26 GMT -6
I'll never forget the Grammy engineering committee meeting where our winner turned out to have been recorded and mixed entirely using a Pro Tools III system. We didn't learn that for several months.
The very first time I boosted the top-end of a recording made with an original Apogee converter was a major revelation. This was using a Waves Q-10.
Another revelation was the waves Q-Clone plug-in. The ergonomics of hardware will often lead to better settings.
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Post by ericn on May 27, 2021 13:39:35 GMT -6
I'll never forget the Grammy engineering committee meeting where our winner turned out to have been recorded and mixed entirely using a Pro Tools III system. We didn't learn that for several months. The very first time I boosted the top-end of a recording made with an original Apogee converter was a major revelation. This was using a Waves Q-10. Another revelation was the waves Q-Clone plug-in. The ergonomics of hardware will often lead to better settings. Let’s all try to convince plugin developers that chasing the sound of analog is a no win situation. Digital has so much potential but it’s not going to sound like an LA2, or 1176 you might get in the ballpark but your not going to hit it out of the park. Yeah we really, really need to get beyond the mouse we need a control standard built around using plugins, but not controllers built for specific plugins. The problem is really this we don’t need another $49 LA2. We need people to look at what digital can do that hasn’t been done.
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2021 14:43:54 GMT -6
Let’s all try to convince plugin developers that chasing the sound of analog is a no win situation. There you go!! You win post of the week Eric!!
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2021 15:24:42 GMT -6
I'll never forget the Grammy engineering committee meeting where our winner turned out to have been recorded and mixed entirely using a Pro Tools III system. We didn't learn that for several months. The very first time I boosted the top-end of a recording made with an original Apogee converter was a major revelation. This was using a Waves Q-10. Another revelation was the waves Q-Clone plug-in. The ergonomics of hardware will often lead to better settings. Let’s all try to convince plugin developers that chasing the sound of analog is a no win situation. Digital has so much potential but it’s not going to sound like an LA2, or 1176 you might get in the ballpark but your not going to hit it out of the park. Yeah we really, really need to get beyond the mouse we need a control standard built around using plugins, but not controllers built for specific plugins. The problem is really this we don’t need another $49 LA2. We need people to look at what digital can do that hasn’t been done. Said this often and mastering limiters are a prime example, today's top master fader suites are incredible. I wouldn't mind but for the cost a decent plugin nowadays you can get some decent hardware, wasn't like that even two decades ago where both plugins (which were kinda cheap) and cheap hardware for the most part sucked. I looked at the recent UA plugs and the price made my eye's water .. (Yes I know the irony of buying a 6176 but it's not like I'm going to upgrade it every couple of years when release 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 etc. comes out). I will say though, that's another issue with plugins. You might swap out some HW because you prefer it but the constant plugin cycle starts becoming hefty. Unless you have a multi-track HW mixing solution (I don't it's 95% before ADC) it can be cheaper to go high end HW. So many options today it's crazy irrelevant of which path one prefers.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2021 19:57:11 GMT -6
I'll never forget the Grammy engineering committee meeting where our winner turned out to have been recorded and mixed entirely using a Pro Tools III system. We didn't learn that for several months. The very first time I boosted the top-end of a recording made with an original Apogee converter was a major revelation. This was using a Waves Q-10. Another revelation was the waves Q-Clone plug-in. The ergonomics of hardware will often lead to better settings. Let’s all try to convince plugin developers that chasing the sound of analog is a no win situation. Digital has so much potential but it’s not going to sound like an LA2, or 1176 you might get in the ballpark but your not going to hit it out of the park. Yeah we really, really need to get beyond the mouse we need a control standard built around using plugins, but not controllers built for specific plugins. The problem is really this we don’t need another $49 LA2. We need people to look at what digital can do that hasn’t been done. This x100. I remember going nuts over Blockfish years ago. Then the original Molot came out and it was nuts. And these were free and more out there than almost every commercial plug at the time. They were cooler than any cheap hardware not a dbx 160. Now Molot GE is more controllable, the fast attack actually works, and it can get even more cracked out than a Kush plug without sounding like a clipper like the Kush plugs do. The Vulf compressor is another more Kush than Kush plug. What the hell it does, I don’t care. It’s basically a series of awesome sliders.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 9:40:28 GMT -6
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 27, 2021 7:36:48 GMT -6
I think plug-in developers get carried away with their emulation of analog coloration. I suppose this is because they are paranoid that if it is too subtle, people won’t be convinced that it sounds “analog.”
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 8:05:14 GMT -6
I think plug-in developers get carried away with their emulation of analog coloration. I suppose this is because they are paranoid that if it is too subtle, people won’t be convinced that it sounds “analog.” They have to parody the gear because of bad monitoring and to differentiate themselves from digital. The same was true of tube gear from after the heyday of tubes. Good tube gear is clean like good solid state with most of the tonal coloration coming from the transformers. The best color plugs are either subtle and have a nice build up like Uhe Satin or totally transformative like Inflator (it has a bit of a trash can effect but if it’s what you want, it’s what you want) , Vulf, and VPre-562a.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 11:42:51 GMT -6
The problem is really this we don’t need another $49 LA2. We need people to look at what digital can do that hasn’t been done. This.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 27, 2021 12:12:55 GMT -6
The problem is really this we don’t need another $49 LA2. We need people to look at what digital can do that hasn’t been done. This. Not sure I completely agree. Plenty of people out there can’t afford multiple LA2A’s vintage or new or clone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 16:09:47 GMT -6
Not sure I completely agree. Plenty of people out there can’t afford multiple LA2A’s vintage or new or clone. I think there's perhaps a wider point. Many of us of a certain age were imprinted (like baby ducks, perhaps) with the sounds that devices like the LA-2A added to mixes we grew up with. It's a brilliant design, but is it the best level control technology that could ever, ever be? If the goal is mixes that sound like 1960's mixes, then they answer may be yes. I'll readily concede that point. But there's also a more distant horizon in which mixes will sound different--enabled by technology and algorithms that increase in power every year. There can be tremendous transparency in modern mixes and (if the music is worth the bother) that's a wholly different category of sound. Plugin developers will keep working on their emulations of vintage devices and those emulations will get better. So if you're after sound of that era, I think the news will be good. But I'm happy to know developers who aren't particularly interested in doing that. In some ways they're going to first principles to see what can be done in putting a piece together.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 16:11:53 GMT -6
Not sure I completely agree. Plenty of people out there can’t afford multiple LA2A’s vintage or new or clone. There's a ton of compressors with multiple non-linear release stages that can do the job of the LAs. I'm not even using the VCL-4 anymore, I'm just tweaking Molot.
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Post by superwack on Jun 27, 2021 18:43:58 GMT -6
I think plug-in developers get carried away with their emulation of analog coloration. I suppose this is because they are paranoid that if it is too subtle, people won’t be convinced that it sounds “analog.” It’s not just plugins. I was speaking to a boutique gear maker who told me they decided to switch from Carnhills to Cinemags because people were complaining their boxes didn’t color the sound enough!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 27, 2021 19:13:09 GMT -6
That's sad. :-(
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 27, 2021 19:23:34 GMT -6
Overanalyzation.. I had a room full of hardware. Made my best mixes ever. Moved to almost all plugins. Made my best mixes ever. It's almost like it's not the hardware, but my skills getting better. I listened to a mix from a top studio.. Sounded great. Later on heard a mix from the same studio.. Sounded bad. I listened to a hardware mix from a producer I liked. Sounded great. Listened to mix he did years later totally ITB.. Sounded great. I dunno man, I'm just feeling like whatever works for you is what is best for you. For me it was a sort of self denial. When I plain and simple counted my works I had to admit the best ones were all ITB…. Discussing a possible technical difference is wasted lifetime to me. How we are interfacing plug ins is the future market with tons of $$$ in it.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jun 27, 2021 20:19:15 GMT -6
For me it was a sort of self denial. When I plain and simple counted my works I had to admit the best ones were all ITB…. Discussing a possible technical difference is wasted lifetime to me. How we are interfacing plug ins is the future market with tons of $$$ in it. You're ITB and you're killing it. We all have an idea of what "Best" represents. There are many of us trying to figure out how the timeless stuff was made. And 99% of the time, something OTB is going to come into play.
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